Sukhoi to sign another contract with India on FGFA

[p2prada]

ITAR-TASS: Russia - Sukhoi to sign another contract with India on fifth generation multi-role fighter

Russia's Sukhoi aircraft manufacturer plans to sign another contract with India in the framework of the joint project for the construction of a fifth generation multipurpose combat jet, Alexander Klementyev, a Sukhoi deputy director general told Itar-Tass on Friday.
"We hope the contract [for experimental design works] will be signed soon," he said.
The intergovernmental agreement on this project was signed back in 2007. Three years after, the sides inked a general contract on joint design and production and then the first engineering development contract. Works under this agreement were completed in 2013. "Since then, we have been working on the second contract for experimental design works," Klementyev said, adding that this was a unique project aiming at long-term cooperation.
"We have never had such a format of cooperation before," he said. "There used to be licensed production in China and in India, but now it will be joint designing and production of a new combat aircraft."
The Sukhoi/HAL Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) or Perspective Multi-role Fighter (PMF) is a fifth-generation fighter being developed by India and Russia. An agreement on the project was signed in Moscow on October 18, 2007. The future aircraft will have a number of differences from its Russian prototype - the PAK FA fifth generation fighter - to adjust it to the requirements of the Indian Air Force.


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It doesn't give an exact date, but this signature has been delayed by a year from the last announcement.

 

[EXPERT]

At least some good news from FGFA. .

 

[Pulkit]

on the contrary atleast some update on it.....

At least some good news from FGFA. .

 

[p2prada]

A signature last year would have meant a prototype this year. So, the first prototype may have been delayed.

However it will be interesting if the prototype comes sooner, regardless of the date of signature of the contract, in order to avoid delays. They said the contract was stuck at costs and work share negotiations, not technical reasons. One can only hope.

 

[Pulkit]

IAF also came out in open and criticized it .... They are not worried about cost ,they would be happy if HAL has lesser role to play .Then what was the reason?

A signature last year would have meant a prototype this year. So, the first prototype may have been delayed.

However it will be interesting if the prototype comes sooner, regardless of the date of signature of the contract, in order to avoid delays. They said the contract was stuck at costs and work share negotiations, not technical reasons. One can only hope.

 

[p2prada]

IAF also came out in open and criticized it .... They are not worried about cost ,they would be happy if HAL has lesser role to play .Then what was the reason?

That was Ajai Shukla selling F-35s to the IAF. He magically got hold of "secret" documents about the "meeting."

And IAF wants HAL to play a bigger role in FGFA, that's a major reason why the negotiations are still ongoing. It was HAL which returned most of its work share back to the Russians. IAF didn't like that.

 

[Pulkit]

That could be a possibility but what i thot was IAF doing tentrum to get MOD on knees and say yes to rafale....
I was happy to see IAF involvement but were you not saying that they are customers then why now are they interfering....

F-35 is a big NO just like Rafale....

That was Ajai Shukla selling F-35s to the IAF. He magically got hold of "secret" documents about the "meeting."

And IAF wants HAL to play a bigger role in FGFA, that's a major reason why the negotiations are still ongoing. It was HAL which returned most of its work share back to the Russians. IAF didn't like that.

ignore Rafale dont wanna get into it here.....

 

[p2prada]

That could be a possibility but what i thot was IAF doing tentrum to get MOD on knees and say yes to rafale....
I was happy to see IAF involvement but were you not saying that they are customers then why now are they interfering....

F-35 is a big NO just like Rafale....



ignore Rafale dont wanna get into it here.....

Rafale and FGFA are unrelated. And both deals are happening, like it or not. Both aircraft will push IAF to the top of the world air forces.

IAF is not interfering, they are doing what they have always done as the customers. The same with LCA, the same with MKI. The IAF is a major supporter of indigenization.

The IAF wants R&D work share to be greater than the 15% that HAL has agreed to. Earlier it was 25%. Apparently, HAL says they are unable to deliver the remaining 10%. As usual, manufacturing work share will be 100%, where the entire jet will be made here.

 

[Pulkit]

They did same for MKI and are doing for FGFA but not for Tejas ....... Tejas was not TOT or JV.....

Rafale and FGFA are unrelated. And both deals are happening, like it or not. Both aircraft will push IAF to the top of the world air forces.

IAF is not interfering, they are doing what they have always done as the customers. The same with LCA, the same with MKI. The IAF is a major supporter of indigenization.

The IAF wants R&D work share to be greater than the 15% that HAL has agreed to. Earlier it was 25%. Apparently, HAL says they are unable to deliver the remaining 10%. As usual, manufacturing work share will be 100%, where the entire jet will be made here.

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

Sukhoi to sign another contract with India on fifth generation multi-role fighter | idrw.org

 

[p2prada]

They did same for MKI and are doing for FGFA but not for Tejas ....... Tejas was not TOT or JV.....

They are doing as much and more for LCA.

 

[Pulkit]

They are doing as much and more for LCA.

Today they might be but what about the initial phase of the product or even the middle phase....
they came in at the end to take the prize....

if it fails its all ADA if not it was a joint effort type

 

[ersakthivel]

They are doing as much and more for LCA.

The IDRW report mentions in a matter of fact way that "MOD has asked to revise the ralfale cost as costs have ballooned"!!!

And then goes on to say the contract is ready to be signed. Can you think contract be signed without finalizing cost.

This cost is the reason why rafale lost out all its previous contracts. Lets see what happens in india,

Also why this cost is such an important issue is, by noting what Air Marshal matheswaran stated in stratpost conference

"Availability, serviceability and reliability will be huge issues. And these are issues which need to be considered. With respect to MMRCA, it should have come, it should have been operational by 2008. Now that we've delayed it so long and we're boxing ourselves into a situation where again cost-factor will come into the picture, you've got to decide between FGFA and MMRCA if you're going to spend 30 billion dollars each on each of the programs – and the country has to take a call. And the reason – the responsibility for this 'boxing' is not with the air force. Its with the country as a whole – its with the entire system as a whole. And that's what you need to look at. Why have you allowed yourself to get boxed in like this?"

.

This what I have been saying by letting the financial bids lapse in its long drawn dubious evaluation process, IAF has really put the civilian govt in a fix.


SO this 20 billion on Rafale and 20 billion on FGFA to be funded at such close interval is almost impossble is what an IAF guy's view.

Lets see what IAF fanboys here tell about this!!!

 

[p2prada]

Today they might be but what about the initial phase of the product or even the middle phase....
they came in at the end to take the prize....

if it fails its all ADA if not it was a joint effort type

Don't get misled by the media.

The IAF setup the flight test facility and assigned pilots for flight tests. They were part of the program since the very beginning. LCA is not in their control, it is a DRDO project. And DRDO does not allow interference until the product is ready for user trials. This is common knowledge. It is during user trials that the forces are allowed to have a say in any project. And user trials happen after all development tests are done. Until then the entire thing is under tight control by DRDO.

 

[ersakthivel]

It was IAF's strong opposition which reduced the tejas program to this tech demo-PV-LSP program with half the funding and no dedicated production line orphan stage.

if the 4000 crores were allotted and a LSP model wanted by ADA was accepted , for concurrent production, then there is merit in having IAF on board from day one.

But after cutting Tejas project to size with their dogged opposition no one in DRDO or ADA wanted IAF to meddle in the tech demo stage , where priority is to prove the tech as asked by IAF-Mod combine for which IAF had bo technical capability.

If IAF was given charge at that time, it would be a moot question whether Td-1 would have flown in 2001 , in flat 7 years after funding for building them were received in 1994

IAF asking for financial and executive power is even more bizzare in a R&D project. It is like asking your family barber to choose your doctor for open heart surgery.

IAF guys are having Mig-21 for ages, but they could not fit a half decent ejection seat that could have saved so many lives.

Even the PAF fitted their Mig-19 with martin baker ejection seat.


Same with marut. It was no DRDO project and was with IAF for ages. What did IAf do to get a new engine onboard, compared with navy's initiative on getting GE-414 on tejas mk2 , IAF slept at the wheel for decades and let marut go waste!!!!

marut can outfly a Mig-21 in speeds above 400 knots, gave a sterling account in the war. It shot down one f-104, the famed jet fighter, and was never shot down by PAF jets, the four lost in enemy territory were all due to ground fire.

jaguar with its crucifix wings was no aerodynamic match for marut which had a highly swept wing with graceful lines and area ruled fuselage, highly praised by its pilots for the close combat handling capabilities and loved to the core.

But IAF or MOD or GOI never seriously pursued engine options despite repeated offers from bristol siddley to develop higher powered orpheus engine!!!!

It was this fiasco that prompted the scientific community to prize Tejas program off the HAL-IAF hand and go with a local engine from the start.

Who stopped IAf from improving Marut in batches, Had they done that there would have been no jag, no ADA , no tejas.

It was the singular failure by IAF and the lack of inspiration on HAL which always had a screw driver job to do with focus on top line which prompted the setting up of ADA at the behest of space scientists who were appalled at the lack of direction in this crucial field.

It is now fashinable for matsy &co to shed crocodile tears over tejas and longing for marut improvement in blocks!!!!, Point is who asked them to sleep at the wheel when the time was on their sides in the 60s and 70s?

And if wikileaks report was true , we could easily see why? One son in law of IAF airchief, both the sons of dynasty all fronted for different companies in DPSA, which comprised of many fighters in the fry.And in the end they selected Jaguar which was palmed off to IAF with false assurance(but it was not mentioned in the contract!!!) of setting right its useless nav attack(most important for a DPSA !!!).

Then BAE asked a massive fee for that, taken aback IAf looked for local talent to set right the problem. It was good the guys did that flat in 18 months.

SO to expect IAF to produce miracle out of thin air be cutting tejas delay is stupid.

SO while gents of Imported Air farts can vent their collective fury on tejas in kangaroo courts like Vayu strat post conference, their pronouncements does not count for sh!t in real world.

A case in point , still an old senile IAF gent harping that tejas is below Bison!!! In case he refers to top speed of mach 2, then even rafale is below Bison,Why did IAf short list 1.8 mach top speed rafale over 2 mach top speed TYPHOON? And by the same count is rafale also inferior to mig-21?

And their deeply felt MMRCA need is another joke of the century. NDA government wanted to avoid the single vendor situation on IAF request to buy 126 Mirage-2000s to avoid charges of corruption and malpractice in the deal and made it multi vendor.

These guys are cleverly not mentioning this fact , because if they mention it their case for rafale will be doomed as tejas mk2 will in every aspect go beyond mirage-2000, even tejas mk1 is at least equal to mirage-2000 as per test pilot Suneeth krishna's claim.

They just put a 30 ton class to keep Su series fighters out and asked Mig not to participate with their mig-35s. thats why we have different class fo fighters from f-16, gripen to typhoon all contesting.

And sat their ass on financial bids till they were allowed to expire in 2009, And now as usual dumping on tejas program to save their butt for the comical circus called MMRCA

navy guys know this old IAF good for nothing game and taking potshots at them,

for which they are replying with even more lies like tejas is below Mig-21 bisons!!!!!

Even the SU-30 MKI is a political decision on behalf of civillian govts, not bought on any deep seated panting need as faked by IAF gents on MMRCA in the vayu strat post conference.

And the fact it turned out deadly shows that there is no reason for us to take the crocodile tears of IAf retired gents for tejas at their face value!!!!

In the same way if the civilian govt right now decides price(they now suspect a foul play on the lines of 2G deal as well!!!!) is too high for rafale and a su-30 MKI -tejas mk2 can do the 126 rafale jobs at half the cost. It will be a right decision also.

heavens wont fall on IAF and tejas su-30 MKI combo can easily do the job heralding the arrival of indian mil aviation industry which was killed off with marut's closure in the seventies.

that was the aim of tejas project and now it is sought to be sabotaged citing the holy cow of national security.

 

[power_monger]

ersakthivel,

From recent comments,it looks like Inadian Navy is hand holding tejas mk2 project.It has even poured 900 crores already into tejas mk2.So even if Indian airforce neglects Tejas,I am pretty much confident on Navy in making it a strong product. I still think tejas future is bright trusting Indian navy's past records.

 

[ersakthivel]

ersakthivel,

From recent comments,it looks like Inadian Navy is hand holding tejas mk2 project.It has even poured 900 crores already into tejas mk2.So even if Indian airforce neglects Tejas,I am pretty much confident on Navy in making it a strong product. I still think tejas future is bright trusting Indian navy's past records.

Thats what IAF gents at vayu stratpost conference hate,

They call navy lucky to have pulled off leander class !!!!

But consider themselves unlucky after being handed over HF-24 marut even before that!!!!

matsy says HF-24 marut should have been improved in batches!!!! Who stopped him doing that?

 

[Santu]

huffff... looks like every thread on Indian airforce becoming LCA Tejas or Tejas Vs rafale thread.. MODs please do some cleanup here.. we already have 3-4 threads to fight about LCA and Rafale....

 

[Jagdish58]

Photo Shop of PAK FA , will FGFA look similar to this or ???

 

[Jagdish58]