Sukhoi Su 30MKI

[Bhartiya Sainik]

I remember that few months back, one member had brought up the idea of making a Variant of SU-30 with advanced electronics and Composites.

I mean this is possible provided the Russians allow us (which I don't think so that they will). Also it will depend on how much TOT was provided by the Russians for Assembling SU-30 MKI here in India. I have also heard that till date, we still Import Raw material for SU-30 MKI.

Russia has huge fleet of upgraded Sukhois & MiGs + exported ones. If 4++ gen jets like Rafale will use high degree of composites reducing RCS, IRS but not a big jet like MKI then not just MKI but all Su-3X around the world are endangering themselves. That's why they are also cheaper than Rafale. They are here to stay for at least 3 decades. At least 30-50% of them should be upgraded with composites which will face the enemy 1st.

 

[johnj]

At least 30-50% of them should be upgraded with composites which will face the enemy 1st.

I disagree on this. Its better to buy/build a new jet than upgrading with composites skin becz it costs 80% of a new one[considering radar/isrt/ew/coms/avionics/rwr/maws etc]. HAL may consider using some composites to carry more/heavy weapons, but rcs remains similar.

 

[Super Flanker]

I disagree on this. Its better to buy/build a new jet than upgrading with composites skin becz it costs 80% of a new one[considering radar/isrt/ew/coms/avionics/rwr/maws etc]. HAL may consider using some composites to carry more/heavy weapons, but rcs remains similar.

RCS doesn't remain the same when composites are used, aircrafts which use composites in their airframes have a reduced RCS as compared to Metal airframes.

For example let's say that a plane "X" is made fully of Metal and a Plane "Y" is having around 20 percent of its Airframe made of Composites, you know who will have a reduced/Lower cross section? Plane "Y'. Ask any aviation expert or engineer. He will tell you that Composites lower RCS.

 

[johnj]

RCS doesn't remain the same when composites are used, aircrafts which use composites in their airframes have a reduced RCS as compared to Metal airframes.

For example let's say that a plane "X" is made fully of Metal and a Plane "Y" is having around 20 percent of its Airframe made of Composites, you know who will have a reduced/Lower cross section? Plane "Y'. Ask any aviation expert or engineer. He will tell you that Composites lower RCS.

Not ''same'' but ''similar'', and it doesn't matter, enemy can spot mki 200-350 km away.

 

[Super Flanker]

Not ''same'' but ''similar'', and it doesn't matter, enemy can spot mki 200-350 km away.

You had written in one of your posts that RCS remains the same which is wrong, and I agree that RCS might have a small degree of reduction and not very less.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

RCS doesn't remain the same when composites are used, aircrafts which use composites in their airframes have a reduced RCS as compared to Metal airframes.

For example let's say that a plane "X" is made fully of Metal and a Plane "Y" is having around 20 percent of its Airframe made of Composites, you know who will have a reduced/Lower cross section? Plane "Y'. Ask any aviation expert or engineer. He will tell you that Composites lower RCS.

Yes , composites do lower RCS to some degree but significantly reducing RCS has more to do with geometry of the aircraft and the capability to absorb incoming RF-waves (radar absorbing paint/material).

 

[Super Flanker]

Yes , composites do lower RCS to some degree but significantly reducing RCS has more to do with geometry of the aircraft and the capability to absorb incoming RF-waves (radar absorbing paint/material).

Yes geometric Stealth is a method employed by stealth aircrafts (i.e F-22, F-35, SU-57, J-20 ) to reduce RCS and also it is the most important aspect of a Stealth aircraft as it contributes to more than 50-60 % of the RCS reduction.

Usage of Composites and radar absorbing material and geometric Stealth makes a plane "Stealth". But any stealth plane is Stealthiest always from the Front.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Yes geometric Stealth is a method employed by stealth aircrafts (i.e F-22, F-35, SU-57, J-20 ) to reduce RCS and also it is the most important aspect of a Stealth aircraft as it contributes to more than 50-60 % of the RCS reduction.

Usage of Composites and radar absorbing material and geometric Stealth makes a plane "Stealth". But any stealth plane is Stealthiest always from the Front.

True that also against limited band.
Most aircraft have stealth capabilities in order Ku-band, X-band and S-band, whereby Ku-band suffers most attenuation.

 

[Super Flanker]

True that also against limited band.
Most aircraft have stealth capabilities in order Ku-band, X-band and S-band, whereby Ku-band suffers most attenuation.

I know of the following technics used by Stealth planes to reduce RCS which are : Geometric Stealth, Composites, radar absorbing paint. If you have more list of Technics than please list them here (atleast 2-3 more).

Thanks in advance

 

[WolfPack86]

HAL & BEL INK PACT FOR SEARCH & TRACK SYSTEM FOR SUKHOI SU-30MKI
BANGALORE: Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) on Tuesday said it has signed a contract with Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) for co-development and co-production of Long Range Dual Band Infra-Red Search and Track System (IRST) for Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighter jets.


The contract was signed under the MAKE-II procedure of Defence Acquisition Procedure (DAP) 2020, as part of the ‘Make in India’ initiative.

“The proposed IRST system will be a high-end strategic technology product in the field of defence avionics and technically competitive to existing IRST system in the global market with features of Television Day Camera, Infrared & LASER sensors in single window for air-to-air and air-to-ground target tracking and localization,” HAL said in a release.

The system will enhance the Indian Air Force’s air superiority, it said.

The coming together of two defence PSUs for development of technologically critical IRST gives impetus to ‘Atmanirbhar Bharat’ in the defence sector, the release stated.

This initiative also opens a future path in the field of indigenous defence manufacturing for development of high-end strategic technology products of IRST for various platforms in a global competitive environment, HAL added.

HAL & BEL Ink Pact For Search & Track System For Sukhoi Su-30MKI

BANGALORE : Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) on Tuesday said it has signed a contract with Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) for co-develo...

www.indiandefensenews.in

 

[Dark Sorrow]

HAL & BEL INK PACT FOR SEARCH & TRACK SYSTEM FOR SUKHOI SU-30MKI
BANGALORE: Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) on Tuesday said it has signed a contract with Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) for co-development and co-production of Long Range Dual Band Infra-Red Search and Track System (IRST) for Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighter jets.


The contract was signed under the MAKE-II procedure of Defence Acquisition Procedure (DAP) 2020, as part of the ‘Make in India’ initiative.

“The proposed IRST system will be a high-end strategic technology product in the field of defence avionics and technically competitive to existing IRST system in the global market with features of Television Day Camera, Infrared & LASER sensors in single window for air-to-air and air-to-ground target tracking and localization,” HAL said in a release.

The system will enhance the Indian Air Force’s air superiority, it said.

The coming together of two defence PSUs for development of technologically critical IRST gives impetus to ‘Atmanirbhar Bharat’ in the defence sector, the release stated.

This initiative also opens a future path in the field of indigenous defence manufacturing for development of high-end strategic technology products of IRST for various platforms in a global competitive environment, HAL added.

HAL & BEL Ink Pact For Search & Track System For Sukhoi Su-30MKI

BANGALORE : Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) on Tuesday said it has signed a contract with Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) for co-develo...

www.indiandefensenews.in

Why not use the same IRST that has been developed/is being developed for Tejas Mk. 2 by IRDE.
If required we could upscale the IRST. Why reinvent the wheel?

 

[Dark Sorrow]

I know of the following technics used by Stealth planes to reduce RCS which are : Geometric Stealth, Composites, radar absorbing paint. If you have more list of Technics than please list them here (atleast 2-3 more).

Thanks in advance

Active cancellation - Still under preliminary stage of development from L band to Ku band.
AFAIK their is some research work going on active absorption of incoming RF-waves incident of aircraft's skin.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

Why not use the same IRST that has been developed/is being developed for Tejas Mk. 2 by IRDE.
If required we could upscale the IRST. Why reinvent the wheel?

Bigger, more powerful module IG. Su30 is much bigger than Tejas Mk2

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Bigger, more powerful module IG. Su30 is much bigger than Tejas Mk2

That is why I said we should upscale the IRST developed for Tejas Mk. 2.

 

[Super Flanker]

Why not use the same IRST that has been developed/is being developed for Tejas Mk. 2 by IRDE.
If required we could upscale the IRST. Why reinvent the wheel?

I think so that the Technology developed/being developed for the Indigenous IRST for Tejas Mk-2 will be used in Development of the new IRST for SU-30 MKI so it could possibly be upscaling of Tejas MK-2 IRST as pointed out by you.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

I disagree on this. Its better to buy/build a new jet than upgrading with composites skin becz it costs 80% of a new one[considering radar/isrt/ew/coms/avionics/rwr/maws etc]. HAL may consider using some composites to carry more/heavy weapons, but rcs remains similar.

Not ''same'' but ''similar'', and it doesn't matter, enemy can spot mki 200-350 km away.

You had written in one of your posts that RCS remains the same which is wrong, and I agree that RCS might have a small degree of reduction and not very less.

I already mentioned the increase in cost giving Rafale as example but how costly will be components & overall product depends on governance model of a country. Our country is not fully capitalist & privatised. And RCS reduction in 5th gen heavily relies also on customized composite, not just RAM, shaping, EW, etc. Composite is not some fixed composition material available globally. Different country research & come up with different % of materials in it. Some composite may offer more weight reduction, some offer more RCS reduction, some more strength. The ratio of & type of materials matter a lot just like in alloys. Different composites are used on different areas of airframe.
I think newer blocks of F-15,16,18 are using composite which also increase life of airframe. We should compare with better things & survivability bcoz a pilot's life is on the line. And to reduce human loss only UCAVs are being researched.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

I think so that the Technology developed/being developed for the Indigenous IRST for Tejas Mk-2 will be used in Development of the new IRST for SU-30 MKI so it could possibly be upscaling of Tejas MK-2 IRST as pointed out by you.

That would be ideal case scenario. No need to re-invent wheel.
Advantages

1. Less logistic burden - training, maintenance
2. No need to prove the technology twice.
3. Economy of scale

 

[johnj]

I already mentioned the increase in cost giving Rafale as example but how costly will be components & overall product depends on governance model of a country. Our country is not fully capitalist & privatised. And RCS reduction in 5th gen heavily relies also on customized composite, not just RAM, shaping, EW, etc. Composite is not some fixed composition material available globally. Different country research & come up with different % of materials in it. Some composite may offer more weight reduction, some offer more RCS reduction, some more strength. The ratio of & type of materials matter a lot just like in alloys. Different composites are used on different areas of airframe.
I think newer blocks of F-15,16,18 are using composite which also increase life of airframe. We should compare with better things & survivability bcoz a pilot's life is on the line. And to reduce human loss only UCAVs are being researched.

All points noted, HAL consider some composite, similar/same wrt mk1/mk2, but for weight reduction/more strength and not for rcs reduction, but rcs change is outcome/reaction and not going to change/give any new benefits. Forget about rafale or new, but consider old mirage, its refit is equivalent to new one, same goes to sukhoi major upgrade, and its cost a lot.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

All points noted, HAL consider some composite, similar/same wrt mk1/mk2, but for weight reduction/more strength and not for rcs reduction, but rcs change is outcome/reaction and not going to change/give any new benefits. Forget about rafale or new, but consider old mirage, its refit is equivalent to new one, same goes to sukhoi major upgrade, and its cost a lot.

That's for DRDO/ADA/NAL/HAL to figure out. Either they can pay the price now or later. Same for Russia & its other customers. The whole world is caught up in cost Vs benefit analysis.
A lot of research is required to intentionally make some material for a desired feature.
Those countries who don't regulate their economy, their people, don't do the research or purchase, have to pay the price one way or the other.

 

[lcafanboy]