Sukhoi Su 30MKI

[Super Flanker]

Exercises with MKI will impart valuable experience to RAAF pilots in understanding & tackling Flanker tactics. They'll need to do so if they plan on facing PLAAF at some point in the future, which also operates large numbers of Flankers in various configurations.

Similar training will soon be done with JASDF as well:

Indian Su-30 Flankers To Dogfight Japanese Fighters Later This Year

The drill will give Japan's fighter pilots the experience of going head-to-head with the Su-30, variants of which are flown by China and Russia, too.

www.thedrive.com

India's Sukhoi SU-30 MKI are more advanced than PLAAF's Sukhoi Su-30MKK Flankers. PLAAF Operates around 165 Sukhoi SU-30 MKKs in it's inventory.

So Exercises with Sukhoi SU-30 MKI Flankers will ensure that the Airforce training against Sukhoi SU-30 MKI will definitely be able to counter an Inferior Sukhoi SU-30 MKK operated by PLAAF as well.

 

[Super Flanker]

Ya'll Nibbiars

View attachment 107761

Shenyang J-16 is like our Sukhoi SU-30 MK. Initially India had ordered a total of 50 SU-30s from Russia directly which were to be delivered in batches.

When We received the 1st Batch of Sukhoi SU-30s, the 1st 8 Aircrafts were Sukhoi SU-30 MK. MK didn't have Canards. 1st Batch consisted of 8 Aircrafts. 2nd batch had Consisted of SU-30 MKI but the SU-30 MKI of the 2nd Batch didn't have Canards. After that from 3rd Batch onwards, all Aircrafts had Canards in them.

J-16 is exactly that, it is like our Sukhoi SU-30 MK and the second batch of Sukhoi SU-30 MKI. None of these Aircrafts had "Canards" -

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Looking at the current situation in Ukraine (some Sukhois shot down), USA & EU telling us to condemn Russia & the global & regional history in last 100 years, we realize that countries like Russia, France & USA are the major weapon mongers & suppliers to both sides of border. They treat every country as cash-cows to fuel their R&D & economy & later force to take sides in UN. Hence it is important that our Su-30MKIs need to have as many indegenous components & newer features as possible A.S.A.P. especially as we are progressing towards next gen AMCA & that's what China has done with their J-1Xs after they got the MKKs & now they will learn from Su-35-S too.
Cursing & criticizing adversaries of being copy-cats, etc doesn't help at all. Ultimately what matters is if we can defend our nation in a multi-front war. China's exported goods could be cheap quality but obviously they will make best quality things for themselves, that's the whole idea of exported items to be at inferior level, even with Russia, USA, France, etc.
Every country boasts their product to be among best standards & projects adversary's products to be questionable.
While our past monarch regime kept us dependant on imports stalling our R&D, China aimed at fighting with USA & not with smaller neighbors including us, hence their policies are different & R&D are ahead than us in military & civil aviation, space, railways, IT products, consumer items, etc.
Our Super-Sukhoi upgrade must finish soon. After wingtip jammers, now the MAWS, redesigned cockpit & other features should be done swiftly.
China also realized the requirement of its own heavy next-gen replacement of Sukhois which came out in form of J-20. But we don't have any talks or indications of replacement of our MKIs in form of 5.5-6 gen AHCA/HWF.

 

[Super Flanker]

Uganda and India signed a MoU for Maintainance and Technical support for Uganda's Su-30 Fighters. This is the 1st Major Defence agreement with Uganda following PM Modi's Unveiling of "10 principles of India-Africa engagement in Ugandan Parliament on 25th July 2018.

Source :-

 

[Nationalist Manasvi Papa]

 

[India Super Power]

Are kab ye Su-30MKI upgrade hoga re baba
Ab toh Chinese flankers mujhe 1 gen age lag rahe hain(obviously exaggeration) but they are highly upgraded

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Are kab ye Su-30MKI upgrade hoga re baba
Ab toh Chinese flankers mujhe 1 gen age lag rahe hain(obviously exaggeration) but they are highly upgraded

DoD ke baba log hi jante hain , interview me koi pooche.

 

[India Super Power]

DoD ke baba log hi jante hain , interview me koi pooche.

Bhai aap kuch post kar sakte hai kya related to very deep into Indian Flankers tech software avionics engine sensor etc like you do for 5th gen fighters

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Bhai aap kuch post kar sakte hai kya related to very deep into Indian Flankers tech software avionics engine sensor etc like you do for 5th gen fighters

Old products don't excite much even after upgrade.

I have already used Su-35-S as examples in AMCA thread & this thread too showing jammer pods, MAWS, redesigned cockpit, etc for the Super-Sukhoi upgrade. But DoD itself doesn't have more to show.

All flankers around the world may/will have high death rate in war bcoz they have huge RCS, & SAM & AAM missiles (RF & IR) are getting smarter.
Even if composites & all upgrades are used, the airframe itself is obsolete from 5th gen PoV, from 4th gen PoV it is superb.
It is not good economics if a MKI with 12 missiles was shot down & could fire only 2-4 missiles. All 8 BVR missiles should be used in worst case in A-A engagement.

So only things which can save Flankers is very strong RF jamming, very good DIRCM & flares, that means stronger engines with higher power & TVC.
The Su-57 is already a flattened & chiselled Su-35 with DIRCM, TVC, good EW, it doesn't get better than that but still Russia's economy has its limitations & so does our economy.

Russia & China with much bigger airspace have 1-seat Flankers which have lesser RCS than 2-seat but all MKIs are 2-seat with WSO strategy in era of sensor fused avionics.
People talk about RF jammers but hardly talk about DIRCM.

If we can upgrade our MKIs & all other jets with DIRCM like in Su-57 that would be great.

 

[India Super Power]

Old products don't excite much even after upgrade.
View attachment 144142

I have already used Su-35-S as examples in AMCA thread & this thread too showing jammer pods, MAWS, redesigned cockpit, etc for the Super-Sukhoi upgrade. But DoD itself doesn't have more to show.

View attachment 144152
All flankers around the world may/will have high death rate in war bcoz they have huge RCS, & SAM & AAM missiles (RF & IR) are getting smarter.
Even if composites & all upgrades are used, the airframe itself is obsolete from 5th gen PoV, from 4th gen PoV it is superb.
It is not good economics if a MKI with 12 missiles was shot down & could fire only 2-4 missiles. All 8 BVR missiles should be used in worst case in A-A engagement.
View attachment 144155
So only things which can save Flankers is very strong RF jamming, very good DIRCM & flares, that means stronger engines with higher power & TVC.
The Su-57 is already a flattened & chiselled Su-35 with DIRCM, TVC, good EW, it doesn't get better than that but still Russia's economy has its limitations & so does our economy.
View attachment 144111

Russia & China with much bigger airspace have 1-seat Flankers which have lesser RCS than 2-seat but all MKIs are 2-seat with WSO strategy in era of sensor fused avionics.
People talk about RF jammers but hardly talk about DIRCM.
View attachment 144119

If we can upgrade our MKIs & all other jets with DIRCM like in Su-57 that would be great.
View attachment 144148

So with whatever upgrade possible from our end this platform can be used for 20-25 years ?
Mostly avionics which we are developing and cockpit which is not that critical but can wso roles be modified in order to control unmanned systems and cats program
When do you think upgrade will start

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

So with whatever upgrade possible from our end this platform can be used for 20-25 years ?

We have to use, unfortunately we don't have any other economical choice till new jets arrive as replacement. And Sukhoi is a unique heavy jet suited well to big countries bcoz bigger airspace means longer range eans heavy jet. Drop tanks consume space which Sukhoi doesn't need ususally. A-A refuellig takes time & poses risk & requires escort guadian jets. Hence only 5.5-6 gen AHCA can replace it in true sense.
Every gen of product is costly when new, then with time tech advancement happen & cost drops then tech advancements take form of newer gen product. So every gen jet spans 30-40 years.
Ratio of a country's own R&D, colaboration & imports also affects economy & choice.

Mostly avionics which we are developing and cockpit which is not that critical but can wso roles be modified in order to control unmanned systems and cats program

Ask any technically qualified person or student - when we speak of automation, AI, machine learning, we try make a product as smart & autonomous as possible to reduce human workload, be it a washing machine, Tesla car or a UCAV. Only initial command is given, rest is handled by product.
If you have played any flight combat videogame like DID's F-22 ADF/TAW where there are artificial wingmen then we give commands by our PC/laptops's keyboard for formation, attack a target, defend, escort, etc

So above we see formation & combat commands menu in F-22. In reality the F-22 group leader will give these commands to manned F-22 wingmen like we see in some movies too.
Similarly today a pilot can give commands by a similar HOTAS menu or simply voice just like interacting with iPhone's Siri, Google assistant, Amazon Alexa, etc. We don't need a separate co-pilot/WSO to control UCAVs.
But if the developer's mentality is fixed on inferior design then they will give infinite justifications for it.
If Elon Musk said & designed Tesla car like it will handle the steering only but driver should control the accelerator & brake or vice-versa then neither it makes sense nor the car would succeed in market.
Similarly UCAV needs high degree of automation & autonomy, it is obidient to commands & self handle formation flight, refuelling, attack patterns, etc.
USA & Russia are much bigger countries than Bharat but neither F-22 nor Su-57 have 2-seat versions, not even trainer versions. They train in simulators. They both have UCAV programs but still no 2-seat version jets to controlthem. The terrain avoiding avionics is such that u can't even intentionally dive & crash the jet. For AMCA & MWF also we are talking about this feature & to RTB if pilot is not responsive. UCAV i supposed to have these features obviously.
The 6th gen jet speculations are also 1-seat. That extra space consumed by co-pilot can be used for additional fuel, avionics, mission-specific or auxilliary equipment.
If a 2 seat jet is shot down then 2 pilots can loose life or eject behind enemy lines, double risk.
So equipment compaction, miniaturization & space economy are crucial in a jet.

When do you think upgrade will start

Like i said , only DoD babas know

 

[THESIS THORON]

We have to use, unfortunately we don't have any other economical choice till new jets arrive as replacement. And Sukhoi is a unique heavy jet suited well to big countries bcoz bigger airspace means longer range eans heavy jet. Drop tanks consume space which Sukhoi doesn't need ususally. A-A refuellig takes time & poses risk & requires escort guadian jets. Hence only 5.5-6 gen AHCA can replace it in true sense.
Every gen of product is costly when new, then with time tech advancement happen & cost drops then tech advancements take form of newer gen product. So every gen jet spans 30-40 years.
Ratio of a country's own R&D, colaboration & imports also affects economy & choice.


Ask any technically qualified person or student - when we speak of automation, AI, machine learning, we try make a product as smart & autonomous as possible to reduce human workload, be it a washing machine, Tesla car or a UCAV. Only initial command is given, rest is handled by product.
If you have played any flight combat videogame like DID's F-22 ADF/TAW where there are artificial wingmen then we give commands by our PC/laptops's keyboard for formation, attack a target, defend, escort, etc
View attachment 144294
View attachment 144295
So above we see formation & combat commands menu in F-22. In reality the F-22 group leader will give these commands to manned F-22 wingmen like we see in some movies too.
Similarly today a pilot can give commands by a similar HOTAS menu or simply voice just like interacting with iPhone's Siri, Google assistant, Amazon Alexa, etc. We don't need a separate co-pilot/WSO to control UCAVs.
But if the developer's mentality is fixed on inferior design then they will give infinite justifications for it.
If Elon Musk said & designed Tesla car like it will handle the steering only but driver should control the accelerator & brake or vice-versa then neither it makes sense nor the car would succeed in market.
Similarly UCAV needs high degree of automation & autonomy, it is obidient to commands & self handle formation flight, refuelling, attack patterns, etc.
USA & Russia are much bigger countries than Bharat but neither F-22 nor Su-57 have 2-seat versions, not even trainer versions. They train in simulators. They both have UCAV programs but still no 2-seat version jets to controlthem. The terrain avoiding avionics is such that u can't even intentionally dive & crash the jet. For AMCA & MWF also we are talking about this feature & to RTB if pilot is not responsive. UCAV i supposed to have these features obviously.
The 6th gen jet speculations are also 1-seat. That extra space consumed by co-pilot can be used for additional fuel, avionics, mission-specific or auxilliary equipment.
If a 2 seat jet is shot down then 2 pilots can loose life or eject behind enemy lines, double risk.
So equipment compaction, miniaturization & space economy are crucial in a jet.


Like i said , only DoD babas know

but we are not working on heavy stealth aircraft

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

but we are not working on heavy stealth aircraft

They will put a public statement long after preliminary RFI, RFP, official discussion, documentation, funding, etc will take place.
ATF RFI happend in 1981, RFP in 1985, YF-22 prototype in 1990, F-22 in 1997, IOC in 2005.
So if we common citizens can casually unofficially discuss then scientists & engineers can also talk about it over a tea/coffee. And as soon as there is even RFI, RFP by a leading nation on something new then espionage, secret meetings & discussions takes place all over globe either to make it or counter it. When FCAS & Tempest type of programs get revealed publicly then representatives from friendly & neutral countries are allowed to visit.
If LCA can be inflated to MWF then AMCA can be inflated to AHCA, simple. All it needs is a stronger engine by GTRE or JV, to power more electronics & DEW. So currently every official chatter on AHCA would be secret, but the path to it is natural & inevitable. Earlier it took a huge team at a secret base/building with military security to even draw a design on board with drafter. Today it takes a small secret team to initiate design on a private isolated server/PC/laptop/LAN. Later it can be revealed & expanded as offically/publicly things progress.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Family planning: Hum do humaare do
2 Indo-Russian parents adopted 2 French kids.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Family planning: Hum do humaare do
2 Indo-Russian parents adopted 2 French kids.
View attachment 144604

Man those MKIs are huge beast.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Man those MKIs are huge beast.

Huge RCS too

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

It seems Su-33 pilots use leg-strapped tablet as extra display. Rafale & EF-2000 pilots also do it.

 

[Tridev123]

Huge RCS too

No quarrel with the statement.
It is a big plane and it was designed with a different philosophy.
The stealth angle was not given preeminence.

But we are seeing repeated references to the handicap by many members.
My question - if the Su30mki is to be only associated with large RCS then in all fairness the American F15 Strike Eagle is also an large plane with a large RCS.

No doubt the F15 has better electronics and radar vis-a-vis the Su30mki but I am sure it's certainly not designed with stealth maximisation in mind. Probably its RCS matches the RCS of the Su30mki.

But there are not many commentaries which focus on its large RCS handicap.

To put it in simple words. Both these planes suffer from the weakness of large RCS.
They are more or less in the same boat.
If somebody says that the F15 Strike Eagle is a super duper plane in spite of the large RCS then it follows that the Su30mki is also an super duper plane.

Since we cannot change the aerodynamics of the Su30mki to decrease its RCS the possible answer is for the Su30mki to have very powerful jammers and EW equipment. Something like the Rafale's Spectra suite probably. But even the Spectra cannot jam AESA radars effectively. So research has to be conducted to develop an system which will be able to jam even powerful AESA radars.

I don't think we should assume that frequency hopping AESA radars cannot be jammed at all. Usually countermeasures to any existing technology does get developed over a period of time.

It is entirely possible that someone or some country or organisation may develop very effective anti stealth technologies in the future and thus bring into question the massive investments being made by many countries into designing and developing advanced stealth aircraft.

All aircraft design involves making some compromises. You cannot have everything. Either payload is sacrificed for stealth or speed for fuel efficiency and range.

But there is no doubt that the Su30mki is long overdue for an upgradation. Only by increasing its capabilities can it continue to stay relevant.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

No quarrel with the statement.
It is a big plane and it was designed with a different philosophy.
The stealth angle was not given preeminence.

But we are seeing repeated references to the handicap by many members.
My question - if the Su30mki is to be only associated with large RCS then in all fairness the American F15 Strike Eagle is also an large plane with a large RCS.

No doubt the F15 has better electronics and radar vis-a-vis the Su30mki but I am sure it's certainly not designed with stealth maximisation in mind. Probably its RCS matches the RCS of the Su30mki.

But there are not many commentaries which focus on its large RCS handicap.

To put it in simple words. Both these planes suffer from the weakness of large RCS.
They are more or less in the same boat.
If somebody says that the F15 Strike Eagle is a super duper plane in spite of the large RCS then it follows that the Su30mki is also an super duper plane.

Since we cannot change the aerodynamics of the Su30mki to decrease its RCS the possible answer is for the Su30mki to have very powerful jammers and EW equipment. Something like the Rafale's Spectra suite probably. But even the Spectra cannot jam AESA radars effectively. So research has to be conducted to develop an system which will be able to jam even powerful AESA radars.

I don't think we should assume that frequency hopping AESA radars cannot be jammed at all. Usually countermeasures to any existing technology does get developed over a period of time.

It is entirely possible that someone or some country or organisation may develop very effective anti stealth technologies in the future and thus bring into question the massive investments being made by many countries into designing and developing advanced stealth aircraft.

All aircraft design involves making some compromises. You cannot have everything. Either payload is sacrificed for stealth or speed for fuel efficiency and range.

But there is no doubt that the Su30mki is long overdue for an upgradation. Only by increasing its capabilities can it continue to stay relevant.

Certainly it is a superb jet in the 4th gen domain that's why its airframe is still used. The West panicked when they discovered the T-10 prototype hence started the ATF 5th gen program.
But the thing to notice is that every gen has its period of reign. We couldn't have kept on upgrading the airframes of 1st, 2nd, 3rd gen aircrafts & now the world is divided into types of countries -
> without AF
> poor & obsolete AF assets
> operating 4th gen, transtion to 4++ gen, can't afford to buy or research on 5th gen.
> operating 4/4++ gen, transition to 5th gen, can'tafford to research on 6th gen.
> operating 4++/5th gen & researching on 6th gen, this is pure natural evolution & public truth.
The Su-57 is like a flattened & chiselled form of Su-3X, the Checkmate is totally diff. design. So Russia has also already indicated its transition. 1-seat Su-3X have lower RCS than 2-seat but rest of the airframe design are hurdles. IDK if Russia or HAL intends to use composites in their Su-3X & other features. It would be fun to imagine a Su-3X with max composite skin, DAS, HMDS, EOTS, double stronger TVC engines, jammers, DIRCM, etc. Let's see if Russia, China, Malaysia, etc upgrade their Sukhois like this.
Those countries who are capable to reaserch on 6th gen jets & UCAVs will replace a considerable amount of legacy jets in next 10-30years. I think it is the 4th gen jets who will be seeing the longest stretch of service perhaps. But just like we don't use 1990s or even 2000s gadgets & standards in civil industry & homes similarly 1 day 4th gen will retire completely like its predecessors, simple. I hope our AF will be ready to be self-reliant mostly by then.
China is operating a squad of J-20 & coming up with J-35 only bcoz they imagined & assumed to be fighting with West. They pressurized themselves.
We don't aim to fight with anybody but threats may not remain at same level forever. Our past govt. were foolish to remain dependant on imports otherwise we would be ahead of China & perhaps EU too.

 

[Tridev123]

Certainly it is a superb jet in the 4th gen domain that's why its airframe is still used. The West panicked when they discovered the T-10 prototype hence started the ATF 5th gen program.
But the thing to notice is that every gen has its period of reign. We couldn't have kept on upgrading the airframes of 1st, 2nd, 3rd gen aircrafts & now the world is divided into types of countries -
> without AF
> poor & obsolete AF assets
> operating 4th gen, transtion to 4++ gen, can't afford to buy or research on 5th gen.
> operating 4/4++ gen, transition to 5th gen, can'tafford to research on 6th gen.
> operating 4++/5th gen & researching on 6th gen, this is pure natural evolution & public truth.
The Su-57 is like a flattened & chiselled form of Su-3X, the Checkmate is totally diff. design. So Russia has also already indicated its transition. 1-seat Su-3X have lower RCS than 2-seat but rest of the airframe design are hurdles. IDK if Russia or HAL intends to use composites in their Su-3X & other features. It would be fun to imagine a Su-3X with max composite skin, DAS, HMDS, EOTS, double stronger TVC engines, jammers, DIRCM, etc. Let's see if Russia, China, Malaysia, etc upgrade their Sukhois like this.
Those countries who are capable to reaserch on 6th gen jets & UCAVs will replace a considerable amount of legacy jets in next 10-30years. I think it is the 4th gen jets who will be seeing the longest stretch of service perhaps. But just like we don't use 1990s or even 2000s gadgets & standards in civil industry & homes similarly 1 day 4th gen will retire completely like its predecessors, simple. I hope our AF will be ready to be self-reliant mostly by then.
China is operating a squad of J-20 & coming up with J-35 only bcoz they imagined & assumed to be fighting with West. They pressurized themselves.
We don't aim to fight with anybody but threats may not remain at same level forever. Our past govt. were foolish to remain dependant on imports otherwise we would be ahead of China & perhaps EU too.

Agree Bro, the evolution of aerospace technology cannot be stopped.
The 4th generation combat aircraft will be phased out in the next two decades.
Nobody is disputing the fact.

I am only trying to highlight the double standards of some people who would praise the F15 Strike Eagle(an beautiful aircraft with formidable capabilities) without referring to its large RCS problem but who would immediately point out the large RCS handicap of the Su30mki whenever it comes up for discussion.

Both these planes were designed in an era when stealth technology had not yet been successfully demonstrated and validated. They both have powerful high thrust engines, top speed ofMach 2 and above, can carry large payloads, large internal fuel capacity and thus range etc. The Su30mki probably has the most powerful PESA radar in the world while the F15's newer versions have powerful AESA radars.
Both are literally beasts which dwarf other smaller fighters.

But still they will also eventually die and be replaced.

As far as India is concerned when even the Pakistani JF17 Block 3 aircraft will be having an AESA radar, the absence of such an alternative on the Su30mki is unacceptable. The Su30mki also needs new long range BVR missiles which will out range the AMRAAM 120C present on their F16 fleet and also match the latest Chinese BVR missiles to be acquired by the PAF.

The Su30mki can provide enough power for an large(higher number of TRM's) AESA radar which can be used to guide even very long range AAM missiles like the Meteor. It's armament should include extra range Anti Radiation missiles to take out enemy radars and SAM sites from an safe distance.

I really don't know how we will match the J20's in case China stations a few squadrons in Tibet or Xinjiang. Will our AMCA be available in time or will we be forced to again depend on imports. Either the F35 or the Su57.

Assuming that the Rafale cannot take out the J20???.
You would need to see the J20 first before it spots the Rafale. Though the Meteor is far ahead of any available Chinese long range BVR missile.