Sukhoi Su 30MKI

[Super Flanker]

Oh, we overestimate them, believe me. They underestimate us, and their ego has been inflated just because they scored a kill on a Mig-21.

JF-17 Block III has PL-15, correct, but it is not in active service yet. Astra Mk-2 is 150+ km range with a minimum NEZ of 80+ km and is scheduled to be inducted within 2-3 years when JF-17 Block III will be in PAF.

The second part, Chinese BVR (PL-12/SD-10) is reportedly underperforming and nowhere near its original mark. There is no reason to believe PL-15 is going to be effective either.

JF-17 is a cheap, 4th gen light fighter. In an overall fight, it might be able to score a few kills, but it will be the slaughter of PAF in aerial battle if they keep on relying on it.

I accept that. I guess I was overhyping PAF afterall.
.

In modern air combat, fighter aircraft do not fight against each other by themselves.
They operate as part of a whole system, which has significant components of early warning and electronic warfare.

In our scenario, any MKI CAP or BARCAP will almost always be operating under an AWACS, with radars off. to be switched on only at the final stage of a BVR engagement. That offsets a whole lot of the RCS factor.

The rest of it can be managed with deception jamming, which is already a key component in IAF BVR doctrines as of present. SAP-518s and E/L-8222's are regularly carried by MKI's. Both are capable of deception jamming.

Yes but our Enemy Will be doing the Same too. Even PAF has AWACS and they will do the same with their AWACS and F-16s, JF 17s.

SU30 in India is JF 17 in pakistan, we make some parts, rest import.

Yes. Even SU-30 MKI has indian Mission Computer but Pakistan doesn't have such Indigenous Mission Computer. Our SU-30 MKI is more than 65 percent Indian components.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

I accept that JF 17 block 3 is inferior to SU-30 MKI.

On what grounds is JF-17 Block 3 inferior to SU-30 MKI. Just because it is a PRC designed plane and is operated by a country hostile to us doesn't make it inferior. In current comparison, JF-17 Block 3 will be a menace to us.
[/QUOTE]
But JF 17 block 3 has PL-15E which is having range of 145 kms(Let's take it for the sake of Argument). So I guess in terms of overall BVR range ,JF 17 block 3 has a Slight edge(If we take this claim of Pakistan Seriously atleast for once)
[/QUOTE]
Currently JF-17 Block 3 armed with PL-15E will totally outguns MKIs. They have better radar, better BVRAAM and equally competent ECM/ESM.
Our main problem is that we currently can't effectively jam either effectively jam KLJ-7V2 or PL-15E but they can jam both Bars radar and R-77 or Astra.
Our current RWR won't be able to successfully detect search/track from KLJ-7V2 if frequency hopping is used properly.
Currently we don't have MAWS on MKIs.

I want to see Super Sukhoi happen, I want SU-30 MKI to have MAWS and get new BVRs(Astra MK-2)in it and finally we can close the Gap between JF 17 block 3 and SU-30 MKI.

Only after Su-30 MKI we will be able to challenge JF-17 Block 3 successfully.
Thing that are needed in the upgrade

1. AESA Radar
2. Digital Wide-band RWR with real-time analysis to counter frequency hopping
3. MAWS
4. AESA Jammer
5. Towed-Decoy Jammer
6. IRST
7. SDR
8. Astra Mk. 2 (BVRAAM with AESA seeker)

 

[Super Flanker]

Su-30 MKI with 3 indigenous weapons

• 1. BrahMos cruise missile
• 2. Rudram-1 anti-radiation missile
• 3. Astra Mk-1 BVR air-to-air missile

 

[Tang]

SU30 in India is JF 17 in pakistan, we make some parts, rest import.

No

We make Su30MKI from scratch.

Pakistan does not even produce 10 LRUs for JF17, forget about production from scratch.

JF17 is like the work HAL did in 1960s, even then HAL/India produced most of the components in house. Can't say that for JF17

 

[Dark Sorrow]

We make Su30MKI from scratch.

Not true. HAL imports all sub-assemblies (even screws) and just assembles these sub-assemblies to manufacture an aircraft.

 

[pipebomb]

3d Thrust vectoring

What is 3d thrust vectoring ?

 

[THESIS THORON]

What is 3d thrust vectoring ?

no tvc--- the nozzle of figher jet will be static

2d tvc----- the nozzle of fighter jet can move up and down

3d tvc-- nozzle can move in almost all directions.

0D TVC / NO TVC

2D TVC


3D TVC

 

[pipebomb]

Oh, we overestimate them, believe me. They underestimate us, and their ego has been inflated just because they scored a kill on a Mig-21.

JF-17 Block III has PL-15, correct, but it is not in active service yet. Astra Mk-2 is 150+ km range with a minimum NEZ of 80+ km and is scheduled to be inducted within 2-3 years when JF-17 Block III will be in PAF.

The second part, Chinese BVR (PL-12/SD-10) is reportedly underperforming and nowhere near its original mark. There is no reason to believe PL-15 is going to be effective either.

JF-17 is a cheap, 4th gen light fighter. In an overall fight, it might be able to score a few kills, but it will be the slaughter of PAF in aerial battle if they keep on relying on it.

ALLEGEDLY blkiii has fly by wire controls

 

[pipebomb]

no tvc--- the nozzle of figher jet will be static

2d tvc----- the nozzle of fighter jet can move up and down

3d tvc-- nozzle can move in almost all directions.

0D TVC / NO TVC

View attachment 137241


2D TVC


3D TVC

Wait f-22 nozzels only moves in one dimension, i.e vertical and su-30 moves in two dimensions, vertical as well as horizontal i.e 2D. Maybe i am missing something ?

 

[Super Flanker]

What is 3d thrust vectoring ?

Thrust vectoring, also known as thrust vector control, is the ability of an aircraft, rocket, or other vehicle to manipulate the direction of the thrust from its engine or motor to control the attitude or angular velocity of the vehicle. A plane has got thrust vectoring when it is able to direct its engine thrust in another direction to give it better maneuverability. ... If it's able to direct the thrust in all directions, (pitch,yaw and roll) it has 3D thrust vectoring.

for Example look here:

 

[THESIS THORON]

Wait f-22 nozzels only moves in one dimension, i.e vertical and su-30 moves in two dimensions, vertical as well as horizontal i.e 2D. Maybe i am missing something ?

f22- up and down --- 2d tvc

su30/35... ----- most of the direction ---- 3d tvc

 

[Super Flanker]

Wait f-22 nozzels only moves in one dimension, i.e vertical and su-30 moves in two dimensions, vertical as well as horizontal i.e 2D. Maybe i am missing something ?

Not in 1 dimension. I think you Meant to say 1 Direction. In 2D Thrust vectoring, the Nozzle can move in 1 axis that is Up & Down and in 3d Thrust vectoring the Nozzle can move in any direction.

 

[shiphone]

another common sense.

for the AL-31FP engine only, it has the 2D TVC:

The TVC nozzles of the MKI are mounted 32 degrees outward to longitudinal engine axis (i.e. in the horizontal plane) and can be deflected ±15 degrees in the vertical plane.

Kaveri Engine

The Canard weight is not the problem. It's the weight of the radar. Canards were added to Su-30MKI (a derivative of Su-27) primarily to support the heavy weight of the new & powerful radar. IAF regarded Su-30MKIs are a 'jugaad' and for a weird reason grew a disdain for canards. They explicitly...

defenceforumindia.com

---------
BTW ,the true all direction TVC (so called 3D TVC)on AL31 varients was from another manufacturer of AL31 engines.

 

[Tang]

Not true. HAL imports all sub-assemblies (even screws) and just assembles these sub-assemblies to manufacture an aircraft.

Good joke

HAL completes production of 140 raw material stage Su-30MKI aircraft

HAL has announced in a tweet that its Nashik Division completed production of 140 Su-30MKI jets from raw material stage (phase 4).

www.airforce-technology.com

 

[Super Flanker]

ALLEGEDLY blkiii has fly by wire controls

What are you Talking about?JF 17 block 3? Well I don't how true that claim is. Supposedly According to Pakistan and China, JF 17 block 3 will have 3 axis/all Digital Fly by Wire(FBW).

Overall JF 17 block 3 is going to have the following Upgrades According to Pakistan And China:

¶ AESA Radar (KLJ-7A)
¶ New HUD
¶ New EW Suite
¶ WVR(PL-10E) & BVR Missile(PL-15)
¶ New Engine (RD-93MA)
¶ Slightly bigger Airframe (Increased Wingspan)
¶ 3-Axis FBW
¶ More use of composite materials
¶ Better Ground Clearence

 

[pipebomb]

So you telling me mki has 1 dimension trust vector

 

[shiphone]

more precisely to explain the so called '2-D' F22's TVC and AL-31FP TVC (not the plane)...wiki

Two-dimensional (2-D)
Nozzles with square or rectangular exits. In addition to the geometrical shape 2-D can also refer to the degree-of-freedom (DOF) controlled which is single axis, or pitch-only, in which case round nozzles are included.

 

[THESIS THORON]

But JF 17 block 3 has PL-15E which is having range of 145 kms(Let's take it for the sake of Argument). So I guess in terms of overall BVR range ,JF 17 block 3 has a Slight edge(If we take this claim of Pakistan Seriously atleast for once)

Currently JF-17 Block 3 armed with PL-15E will totally outguns MKIs. They have better radar, better BVRAAM and equally competent ECM/ESM.
Our main problem is that we currently can't effectively jam either effectively jam KLJ-7V2 or PL-15E but they can jam both Bars radar and R-77 or Astra.
Our current RWR won't be able to successfully detect search/track from KLJ-7V2 if frequency hopping is used properly.
Currently we don't have MAWS on MKIs.

Only after Su-30 MKI we will be able to challenge JF-17 Block 3 successfully.
Thing that are needed in the upgrade

1. AESA Radar
2. Digital Wide-band RWR with real-time analysis to counter frequency hopping
3. MAWS
4. AESA Jammer
5. Towed-Decoy Jammer
6. IRST
7. SDR
8. Astra Mk. 2 (BVRAAM with AESA seeker)

I also agree. We need to think technically, neutrallly & radically, rather than bluntly & sentimentally.
1st rule of engagement cautions not to underestimate any adversary. Geography & race doesn't decide human capabilities.
In last 20 years many countries have taken steps which we should have but we didn't.
J-10A has evolved well into J-10C
JF-17 blocks have evolved
Currenty Malaysian MKM is better than MKI. Chinese derivatives should not be taken lightly, they will definitely study & copy their acquired Su-35-S onto their derivatives. MKI needs a better engine too.
If MKI has TVC so does J-10C. When 2 TVC jets are F2F irrespective of 1/2-engine then T/W ratio, CCM off-boresight capability, CMDS & pilot's gun-skill matters.
And now in 2020+ era the rear raised cockpit & straight engine ducts in all Su-3X is a curse raising the RCS. Earlier i used to think that if somehow its airframe can be modified like done with F-15-EX/SE then it can be an economic work-around but even Russia won't do it or won't anybody else do it. Actually Su-57 is being seen as a flatened chiselled Su-3X, LOL. Airframe design has to evolve, not just the sub-systems & avionics. So currently we have to be prepared to be detected early, fired upon early & either jam/counter/dodge the enemy missile.
Coming to missile, only longer range missile doesn't give advantage always. If it is launched early & detected late then it is advantage otherwise early detection & certain maneuvers can defeat it.

There is a saying "Hope for the best, prepare for the worst"
What we have done so far is "Hope for the best, prepare for the best"
Let's hope this changes in next 20 years.

someone has done fuckup with the quotes , that's why your message is getting very confusing

 

[asianobserve]

Only after Su-30 MKI we will be able to challenge JF-17 Block 3 successfully.
Thing that are needed in the upgrade

1. AESA Radar
2. Digital Wide-band RWR with real-time analysis to counter frequency hopping
3. MAWS
4. AESA Jammer
5. Towed-Decoy Jammer
6. IRST
7. SDR
8. Astra Mk. 2 (BVRAAM with AESA seeker)

You mean IAF needs a new fighter...

 

[pipebomb]

Thing that are needed in the upgrade

1. AESA Radar
2. Digital Wide-band RWR with real-time analysis to counter frequency hopping
3. MAWS
4. AESA Jammer
5. Towed-Decoy Jammer
6. IRST
7. SDR
8. Astra Mk. 2 (BVRAAM with AESA seeker

6 & 7 is already there, maws(not DAS) are overrated for air superiority fighters and a long range bvr to fully exploit bars or its future replacement.