Sukhoi Su 30MKI

[IndianHawk]

Ideally, tejas mk1A could do well to have integrated maws, rwr. I did read somewhere that the EW systems in tejas is not bad. With the radar based jamming providing good results.

It's all Israeli for now . Elta 2052 + elisar ew suite + elta wideband jammer+ derby ER.

That combo is better than anything in Chinese airforce .

 

[Bleh]

Indian Su-30MKI with F-22. Didn't know that even happened.

 

[IndianHawk]

Indian Su-30MKI with F-22. Didn't know that even happened.
View attachment 49710

We hold more military exercises with USA than any other countries. A lot more happens.

 

[Ultramarine]

Indian Su-30MKI with F-22. Didn't know that even happened.
View attachment 49710

This was from the last red flag exercise I believe. Our Jags too had participated.

 

[Emperor Kalki]

Indian Su-30MKI with F-22. Didn't know that even happened.
View attachment 49710

Don't you remember those mockery from the USAF officer that almost became a controversy?

 

[Prashant12]

BrahMos becomes first desi missile to receive fleet release clearance

Bengaluru: BrahMos air launched cruise missile (ALCM) received the first ever fleet release clearance (FRC) issued by the certifying agency.

The supersonic and advanced ALCM with its proven capabilities for the Indian Air Force (IAF) there by becomes the first indigenous weapon to get the critical FRC.

According to military sources, the FRC was granted to BrahMos missile on June 10 during a high-profile meeting of various stakeholders held through video conferencing.
https://english.manoramaonline.com/...ion-officials-missing-pakistan-islamabad.html
The meeting was attended by members from the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), BrahMos Aerospace, Aircraft and Systems Testing Establishment (ASTE), Software Development Institute (SDI), IAF HQ and the Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification (CEMILAC).

The FRC for BrahMos airborne version was accorded by CEMILAC.

Aiding Missions

“The FRC paves the way for the IAF squadrons to use BrahMos ALCM during various combat missions. This is an important milestone for the missile makers,” a government official said.


The IAF had added unmatched capability in the Indian Ocean Region (IOR) when it inducted the mighty Sukhois (Su-30MKIs) armed with BrahMos ALCMs into the resurrected No 222 Squadron at the Air Force Station (AFS) Thanjavur on January 20 this year.

The stand-off distance of BrahMos (300 km) and the range of Sukhoi (3000-plus km) along with refuelling have given the IAF a great advantage during its missions in the IOR.

Ahead of the induction into IAF, the BrahMos ALCM had demonstrated six spectacular test firings to validate its impeccable land-attack and anti-ship capabilities.

Out of these, there tests were from land-based launchers and three from Sukhois.

Since its first mission on June 12, 2001, BrahMos missile saw 26 launches from various Indian Navy platforms, 23 launches for Indian Army and six tests for the IAF.

In addition, there were close to 20 developmental launches as well.


During the DefExpo2020 held at Lucknow in February, Dr Sudhir Kumar Mishra, CEO & MD of BrahMos Aerospace, had told Onmanorama the missile variants will be tested with enhanced range this year.

In its ALCM role to be integrated on Sukhois, BrahMos underwent several changes including weight reduction from 2.9 tonne to 2.5 tonne.

As reported by Onmanorama earlier, the role of ASTE and SDI has been pivotal in the integration of BrahMos ALCM on Sukhois. Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd’s Nashik Division too played a key role.

What’s FRC?

FRC could be compared to the initial operational clearance (IOC) granted to Tejas. There will be another certification likely in future that will clear the missile for some advanced roles.

When asked about the relevance of FRC, an official said that it is a mandatory requirement considering the changes both the weapon and carrying platform have undergone.

“Sukhois have undergone several modifications during their integration of BrahMos ALCM. Factors like fatigue of aircraft and launcher comes into play now. It is important that we generate long-term data and FRC paves way for the same,” the official said.

Under the FRC, limited number of Sukhois have been chosen to carry BrahMos ALCM for immediate missions. In future, additional Sukhois will be added as per FRC.

A government official confirms that the FRC process was expedited following the current stand-off between India and China on the border.

“These are sensitive issues and can only confirm that there was an urgency on this matter,” an official said refusing to share more details.

Key Milestone

It is now certain that the missile will be given another round of final clearance after agencies analyse the date being generated from various IAF missions, post FRC.

“There are several factors that will be looked into, including production issues. All the learnings will help to enhance the scope of the missile in future missions of IAF,” an official said.


Similar to the final operational clearance (FOC) granted to Tejas, there will be another type of FRC that will be granted to BrahMos in future.

Ahead of this, the IAF will have to identify the Sukhoi batches that would undergo modifications to integrate the missile, the critical one being the launcher developed by BrahMos Aerospace Thiruvananthapuram Ltd (BATL).

Officials say that FRC is an important milestone for an indigenous missile which will now set the tone for other weapons as well.

“The IAF pilots have already begun their missions from AFS Thanjavur and more assets will be added to the squadron there. The FRC gives a stamp for the pilots to use these missiles in various modes as per the mission requirements,” an official said.

Gradually more desi missiles are expected to be given the FRC, including the Astra beyond visual range (BVR) missile, Rudram-1, Rudram-2, Rudram-3 and the New Generation Anti-Radiation Missile (NGARM).

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english.manoramaonline.com

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Waste of money.

Now level of indigenous equipment have reached the to part - 4 were even raw materials are Indian. And level of indigenous equipment have reached above 75%. Even in engine many components are indian. We will not only lose production line of HAL
We will also lose locals manufacturers. Till the time we don't place orders of MWF we need to keep these companies alive.

An Indian facility that makes Su-30MKI jets may shut down, toppling 400 local suppliers

An executive with the industry lobby group Federation of Indian Chambers of Commerce & Industry, said 400 local suppliers that build about 6,000 components worth $12.5 million for each Su-30MKI fighter may also shut down if no new orders are placed with HAL.

An Indian facility that makes Su-30MKI jets may shut down, toppling 400 local suppliers

It's the classic domino effect: An Indian facility that manufactures Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighters may close in March 2020, leading to the closure of 400 local suppliers over a lack of component orders.

www.defensenews.com

 

[Lancer]

Now level of indigenous equipment have reached the to part - 4 were even raw materials are Indian. And level of indigenous equipment have reached above 75%. Even in engine many components are indian. We will not only lose production line of HAL
We will also lose locals manufacturers. Till the time we don't place orders of MWF we need to keep these companies alive.

An Indian facility that makes Su-30MKI jets may shut down, toppling 400 local suppliers

An executive with the industry lobby group Federation of Indian Chambers of Commerce & Industry, said 400 local suppliers that build about 6,000 components worth $12.5 million for each Su-30MKI fighter may also shut down if no new orders are placed with HAL.

An Indian facility that makes Su-30MKI jets may shut down, toppling 400 local suppliers

It's the classic domino effect: An Indian facility that manufactures Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighters may close in March 2020, leading to the closure of 400 local suppliers over a lack of component orders.

www.defensenews.com

Have we already settled on the upgrade packages for Sukhois? If we have, I think it would be a good idea to build some more (to plug squadron # gaps - espc. with a clear and imminent two front threat emerging), but build them as per the super Sukhoi standard so they don't become obsolete/don't have to be overhauled later.

 

[WolfPack86]

Amid row with China, IAF pushes proposal for acquiring 33 new Russian fighter aircraft
Amid the ongoing row with China in eastern Ladakh, the Indian Air Force (IAF) has pushed a proposal to the government for acquiring 33 new fighter aircraft, including 21 MiG-29s and 12 Su-30MKIs from Russia.

"The Air Force has been working on this plan for some time but they have now fast-tracked the process and the proposals expected to be worth over Rs 6,000 crore would be placed before the Defence Ministry for its final approval next week at a high-level meeting," government sources told ANI here.

The proposal includes the acquisition of 12 Su-30 MKIs that would be required for replacing the number of aircraft lost by the Air Force in different accidents, they said.


India had placed orders for 272 Su-30 fighter jets over a period of 10 to 15 years in different batches and senior officers feel that the number of planes acquired so far would be enough for the service's heavy-weight aircraft requirement.

The 21 MiG 29s that the IAF is planning to acquire are from Russia which has offered to sell these planes to help the Air Force to meet its requirement of new fighters.

The Air Force has also carried out a study to check if the airframe of the MiG-29s on offer are good enough for it to operate for a long time and they have been found to be in almost new condition.

MiG-29s are flown by the Air Force and the pilots are familiar with it but the ones offered by the Russians are different from the ones in the Indian inventory.

The Air Force has three squadrons of the MiG-29s which have been undergoing upgrades for extended life and are considered reliable in the air defence roles.

India and China have been locked in a dispute after the Chinese troops carried out military build-up along the Line of Actual Control in Eastern Ladakh, where they have deployed over 10,000 troops.

Amid row with China, IAF pushes proposal for acquiring 33 new Russian fighter aircraft

Amid the ongoing row with China in eastern Ladakh, the Indian Air Force (IAF) has pushed a proposal to the government for acquiring 33 new fighter aircraft, including 21 MiG-29s and 12 Su-30MKIs from Russia. "The Air Force has been working on this plan for some time but they have now...

www.defencenews.in

 

[IndianHawk]

Have we already settled on the upgrade packages for Sukhois? If we have, I think it would be a good idea to build some more (to plug squadron # gaps - espc. with a clear and imminent two front threat emerging), but build them as per the super Sukhoi standard so they don't become obsolete/don't have to be overhauled later.

Hal has offered mostly indegenious upgrade package. Barring radar which is a big change almost everything else maws/ digital rwr / irst can be added to new and old planes anytime.

 

[Bleh]

Indian Su-30MKI with F-22. Didn't know that even happened.
View attachment 49710

 

[WolfPack86]

Russia to deliver Sukhoi Su-30MKIs, Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-29s to Indian Air Force in shortest timeframe
Russia is ready to deliver Sukhoi Su-30 MKI and Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-29 fighter jets to India in the shortest possible timeframe. In a government to government deal which comes amidst the India-China border tension, the Indian Air Force (IAF) plans to order and induct 33 fighters - 12 Sukhoi Su-30 MKIs and 21 MiG-29s - from Russia.

New Delhi: Russia is ready to deliver Sukhoi Su-30 MKI and Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-29 fighter jets to India in the shortest possible timeframe. In a government to government deal which comes amidst the India-China border tension, the Indian Air Force (IAF) plans to order and induct 33 fighters - 12 Sukhoi Su-30 MKIs and 21 MiG-29s - from Russia.


WION has learnt that Russia is ready to assess the issue of early delivery even as the country is already helping the IAF in the MiG-29 modernisation programme. IAF got its first MiG-29 in 1985 and the modernisation will help increase combat capabilities of the MiG-29 fighters to a level comparable to the 4th Generation jets.


Post-modernisation MiG-29s will allow integration of Russian and foreign origin weapons including tracking of aerial targets in a wide range of flight speeds and altitudes, tracking of heat-contrasting air objects & perform “hidden” (without the use of radar) attacks on them. Modern materials and technologies for corrosion protection will increase the service life of MiG-29 fighters by up to 40 years.



The IAF commissioned its first squadron of Su-30MKIs armed with the supersonic BrahMos-A cruise missile in January 2020 at Thanjavur Air Force Station. The Su-30MKI based at Thanjavur are part of the 222 Squadron 'Tigersharks'.

In fact, the importance of Sukhoi jets can be gauged from the fact that it is the only IAF combat aircraft capable of launching BrahMos supersonic missiles.


At DefExpo India 2020 BrahMos Aerospace's representative told Russian RIA Novosti news agency that in two years IAF's Su-30MKIs would receive new missiles for use against airborne early warning aircraft. Thus the highly successful India-Russia joint venture which produced BrahMos, could enter the air-to-air missile domain.


The first contract to deliver Su-30MKI jets to the IAF was signed on November 30, 1996, in Irkutsk, Russia, between Rosvooruzhenie state intermediary company and the Indian Defence Ministry. It envisaged the delivery of 32 Su-30s, all of which were produced in 2002-2004.

Satisfied with the performance of the aircraft, the Indian Defence Ministry placed additional orders. In December 2000, both countries signed a contract for organising the licensed production of Su-30MKIs in India at the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited facilities. Then in 2012, another contract for technological kits of Su-30MKIs was signed as the Sukhois have proved to be a reliable and effective multirole heavy aerial combat platform for the IAF.


The Su-30MKI project has become one of the largest in the history of military cooperation of India with a foreign country and also has contributed to the sales of Su-30MK family aircraft to other countries.


Moreover, the programme has directly influenced the development of Su-30SM fighter jet, which is currently being delivered to the Russian Air Force and is also being offered at the international arms market as Su-30SME.

Russia to deliver Sukhoi Su-30MKIs, Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-29s to Indian Air Force in shortest timeframe

Russia is ready to deliver Sukhoi Su-30 MKI and Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-29 fighter jets to India in the shortest possible timeframe. In a government to government deal which comes amidst the India-China border tension, the Indian Air Force (IAF) plans to order and induct 33 fighters - 12 Sukhoi...

zeenews.india.com

 

[panzerfeist1]

Maybe this will increase the buying potential for the Su-57 depending how much India views the J-20 as a threat. And some doors might open for possible future KA-52M,Mi-28NM, T-14, pantsir-SM and Okhotnik-B drone purchases among other nice fancy toys. Its sick that I love war, but I like to know how good some military equipment is compared to others.

 

[piKacHHu]

Don't you remember those mockery from the USAF officer that almost became a controversy?

The only good thing he said about Indian contingent was about its discipline in following ROE of the exercises; i.e. ZERO violation of air space meant for air combat.

Much of his criticism was valid w.r.t to MKI's RCS which he compared it to a Truck or something.

Second problem he highlighted was IAF's lack of interoperability among NATO standards and data links with their AWACS. That proved to be a handicap as the MKI pilot needed radio confirmation from AWACS every time before engaging hostile target.

Third comment was more amusing about Rafale; which is being brought by French Air Force to impress IAF contingent with its capabilities; the time when MRCA 1.0 competition was at full swing.

Rest was all aggrandizing superior capabilities of Raptors & stuff. I think his talk consciously aimed at undermining the air capabilities of Flankers vis-a-vis USAF jets which'd got some traction in the aftermath of Cope India exercise.

 

[Neil]

Noob question:

How realistic is it to go for Israeli AESA for su30s? It would allow us to integrate a broader range of weapons and sub system like meteor or even US made Aim 120D with ease.

And i know, Russians might not agree to it. But we could sweeten the negotiation by upgrading all su30s with AL-41 and ordering 100+ more su30s. But su30s with Isreali AESA, french meteor and Russian Al-41 will truly be the worthy super sukhoi

 

[piKacHHu]

Noob question:

How realistic is it to go for Israeli AESA for su30s? It would allow us to integrate a broader range of weapons and sub system like meteor or even US made Aim 120D with ease.

And i know, Russians might not agree to it. But we could sweeten the negotiation by upgrading all su30s with AL-41 and ordering 100+ more su30s.

There are two aspects which negates possibility of Israeli AESA on MKI;

1. Commercial: In any 4+ Gen jet, the electronics and sensors typically constitute around 30-40% of the overall cost. So, Russia will do heavy arm-twisting to get this pie during the upgrade program.

2. Technical: Replacing Russian radar with Israeli one may entail changing the cock-pit & mission computer architecture; ECCS/ESM will be also be changed & the BVR missile inventory meant for MKI fleet will be rendered useless; again it will add up to the cost. Over and above, new jammers would be required.

All depends up on how much sensor data fusion is achieved on MKI platform; the more complex it is, more will be the effort required for decoupling and developing interfaces that could operate all these components of different origins in harmony.

(It's like your perception about how you rate high-on-spec Xioami phone (Snapdragon processor, ADRENO GPU, HD Display, 4000 mAh battery, High pixeled camera etc.) with iPhone (Apple's in-house A10 Bionic chip, iOs, etc.) which gives you very little on spec yet performs reasonably well for longer period of time. Probably that's the reason that iPhone is expensive as hell just like the Rafales !! )

We had experience of RADAR upgrades in Bisons and Jaguar; where in the Bisons upgraded RADAR was Russian one and for Jaguar , there was no RADAR from the start but this would be a unique case where the heavy Russian PESA was replaced with Israeli AESA (countries which are also not so friendly either !!). Of which, I see very little possibility of it happening.

For Meteor part, MBDA so far has not changed its stand on integrating Meteor with any non-European Radar. In fact, as a part of arm twisting to force India to purchase more Rafales, it has denied its integration to even upgraded Mirages which has the European radar.

I am afraid all these wish list for upgrade including Radar+engine could cost around 70-80% cost of brand new MKI coming from the Nashik assembly line. Where would the money come from when the other fighter programs are also lined up like MMRCA, MWF, AMCA etc?

IMO, IAF could afford a limited up gradation of MKI fleet involving 3-4 squadrons (60-70 aircraft) only and that too with the Russian hardware which is a prudent way to ensure commonality and logistics aspects.

 

[Neil]

There are two aspects which negates possibility of Israeli AESA on MKI;

1. Commercial: In any 4+ Gen jet, the electronics and sensors typically constitute around 30-40% of the overall cost. So, Russia will do heavy arm-twisting to get this pie during the upgrade program.

Agreed. Russia will try everything in its powers to scuttle the deal.

2. Technical: Replacing Russian radar with Israeli one may entail changing the cock-pit & mission computer architecture; ECCS/ESM will be also be changed & the BVR missile inventory meant for MKI fleet will be rendered useless; again it will add up to the cost. Over and above, new jammers would be required.

Actually, super sukhoi upgrade anyway was going for changes in many of these architecture already mentioned. A more digital cockpit, new ECCS/ESM suites etc. Also, don't think Israel will see any problem giving us source codes to mount Russian BVRs.

And yes i agree it will be a khichdi, but the current sukhoi itself is a khichdi with systems and subsystem from france , Russia and India installed, I think this is worth puling off.

All depends up on how much sensor data fusion is achieved on MKI platform; the more complex it is, more will be the effort required for decoupling and developing interfaces that could operate all these components of different origins in harmony.

(It's like your perception about how you rate high-on-spec Xioami phone (Snapdragon processor, ADRENO GPU, HD Display, 4000 mAh battery, High pixeled camera etc.) with iPhone (Apple's in-house A10 Bionic chip, iOs, etc.) which gives you very little on spec yet performs reasonably well for longer period of time. Probably that's the reason that iPhone is expensive as hell just like the Rafales !! )

hahahaa...fair point.

We had experience of RADAR upgrades in Bisons and Jaguar; where in the Bisons upgraded RADAR was Russian one and for Jaguar , there was no RADAR from the start but this would be a unique case where the heavy Russian PESA was replaced with Israeli AESA (countries which are also not so friendly either !!). Of which, I see very little possibility of it happening.

For Meteor part, MBDA so far has not changed its stand on integrating Meteor with any non-European Radar. In fact, as a part of arm twisting to force India to purchase more Rafales, it has denied its integration to even upgraded Mirages which has the European radar.

Yeah, I know that story. They refused it for LCA. But we are talking about few years down the line. A huge market, su30s alone in 400 numbers. Also if not meteor, we can certainly sling Derby ER or Aim 120D, the options will be huge. Beauty of having source codes.

I am afraid all these wish list for upgrade including Radar+engine could cost around 70-80% cost of brand new MKI coming from the Nashik assembly line. Where would the money come from when the other fighter programs are also lined up like MMRCA, MWF, AMCA etc?

IMO, IAF could afford a limited up gradation of MKI fleet involving 3-4 squadrons (60-70 aircraft) only and that too with the Russian hardware which is a prudent way to ensure commonality and logistics aspects.

Agreed. But there is also a counter arguments, that sukhoi will require upgrades in a few years. A comprehensive upgrade or we risk falling behind. I mean we are talking about the backbone of India's air power capabilities. The money is going to be spread over a decade+. May be a brand new highly capable sukhoi will slow down our immediate requirement of AMCA, MWF, MMRCA.

The current su30 itself is a mixture of jugaad of systems and sub systems. We will actually be doing disservice to the awesome firepower su30s can unleash if we dont put in better western avionics and merge it with Russian, Indian and Western hardware (Which it currently does as well)

 

[Akula]

Maybe this will increase the buying potential for the Su-57 depending how much India views the J-20 as a threat. And some doors might open for possible future KA-52M,Mi-28NM, T-14, pantsir-SM and Okhotnik-B drone purchases among other nice fancy toys. Its sick that I love war, but I like to know how good some military equipment is compared to others.

I don't think India will consider buying all these items apart from Su-57 and T-14(maybe).

 

[piKacHHu]

The current su30 itself is a mixture of jugaad of systems and sub systems. We will actually be doing disservice to the awesome firepower su30s can unleash if we dont put in better western avionics and merge it with Russian, Indian and Western hardware (Which it currently does as well)

The MKIs will definitely get mid-life upgrade; there is no doubt about that but the point is what kind of upgrade we are looking for. There was a concept called "Super Sukhoi" based on which it was thought that the MKI could be equipped with technologies and engines derived from front-line Su-35 & PAK-FA/Su 57. As you have indicated, Zhuk AESA and more reliable Al 41 FP engines were proposed along with assortment of changes in avionics, RAM coatings, and sensors. But the problem is that this concept is doing rounds for more than half a decade yet there is no significant progress on these two important components i.e. Engine and RADAR proposed for Super sukhoi from Russian side.

Latest, what I heard is that the Russia has proposed a joint working group with India to explore up gradation of MKI fleet in line with the up-gradation program for their own Su-30SM fleet. Quite a fair proposal as it doesn't intend on pulling a 5th Gen capability out of a 4th Gen aircraft; what they wanted incremental improvements aimed at better serviceability (improvement on engines) and survivability (sensor improvements). Like India, Russia also faces similar conditions w.r.t the defense expenditure (Russian GDP is very much affected by commodity prices) and it doesn't have enormous resource like the US to fund massive programs. Therefore, it's more reasonable to adopt high end up-gradation for a few squadrons which will act as spear of attack; for rest of the fleet, incremental up gradation should be followed to improve serviceability and most importantly equipping it better BVR AAMs. With the coming of 4+/5 gen AMCA, Rafales, MWF in numbers , probably by 2035, I only foresee the MKI role in IAF as a "Bomb Truck".

This discussion however begs a follow-up question; As the HAL is building MKI right from raw material as it claims, why doesn't it try to develop a test-bed aircraft for testing upgradation technologies into it? where it can try to integrate any AESA radar in combination with avionics proposed for 5th gen program like AMCA. Nashik assembly line which soon to become idle could explore tinkering existing MKIs for further improvements.

 

[JBH22]

The MKIs will definitely get mid-life upgrade; there is no doubt about that but the point is what kind of upgrade we are looking for. There was a concept called "Super Sukhoi" based on which it was thought that the MKI could be equipped with technologies and engines derived from front-line Su-35 & PAK-FA/Su 57. As you have indicated, Zhuk AESA and more reliable Al 41 FP engines were proposed along with assortment of changes in avionics, RAM coatings, and sensors. But the problem is that this concept is doing rounds for more than half a decade yet there is no significant progress on these two important components i.e. Engine and RADAR proposed for Super sukhoi from Russian side.

Latest, what I heard is that the Russia has proposed a joint working group with India to explore up gradation of MKI fleet in line with the up-gradation program for their own Su-30SM fleet. Quite a fair proposal as it doesn't intend on pulling a 5th Gen capability out of a 4th Gen aircraft; what they wanted incremental improvements aimed at better serviceability (improvement on engines) and survivability (sensor improvements). Like India, Russia also faces similar conditions w.r.t the defense expenditure (Russian GDP is very much affected by commodity prices) and it doesn't have enormous resource like the US to fund massive programs. Therefore, it's more reasonable to adopt high end up-gradation for a few squadrons which will act as spear of attack; for rest of the fleet, incremental up gradation should be followed to improve serviceability and most importantly equipping it better BVR AAMs. With the coming of 4+/5 gen AMCA, Rafales, MWF in numbers , probably by 2035, I only foresee the MKI role in IAF as a "Bomb Truck".

View attachment 50758

This discussion however begs a follow-up question; As the HAL is building MKI right from raw material as it claims, why doesn't it try to develop a test-bed aircraft for testing upgradation technologies into it? where it can try to integrate any AESA radar in combination with avionics proposed for 5th gen program like AMCA. Nashik assembly line which soon to become idle could explore tinkering existing MKIs for further improvements.

Had a private firm got the license for Su 30 mki we would have witnessed incremental changes. It's now or never to either privatise or corporatization of PSU