Anshu Attri
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Sukhoi PAK FA
- Thread starter Anshu Attri
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Zebra
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IAF to get fifth gen fighters only after 2019.
May 8, 2012
In a strong reality check on the status of India's fifth generation fighters, Defence Minister A K Antony has indicated that the aircraft is not likely to enter service in this decade, saying it is scheduled to get certified only by 2019.
While both Antony and Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne have said in the past that the fighters will be ready to enter service by 2017, the minister informed Parliament on Monday that series production would start only after the aircraft gets certification.
Antony said the detailed roadmap of the development of the fighters had been carried out with Russia — the lead partner in the programme — and the aircraft was now "scheduled to be certified by 2019, following which series production will start". This means the fighters will not enter service till the early part of the next decade.
This delay will come as a jolt to the Indian Air Force that has been expecting the fighters by 2017-18. In fact, India has not yet gone beyond signing the preliminary design contract of the fighters with Russia. Antony said an agreement on the research and development phase would be signed with Russia this year.
The fighters made their first public appearance at the Moscow Air Show in 2011. Engineers of the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited have started work on its Indian version that will have two pilots unlike the Russian fighters.
There is a sense of urgency to develop the aircraft given that China has progressed on the J 20 — its indigenous new generation fighters
The Indian Express
Defenseblog-njs.blogspot.com
May 8, 2012
In a strong reality check on the status of India's fifth generation fighters, Defence Minister A K Antony has indicated that the aircraft is not likely to enter service in this decade, saying it is scheduled to get certified only by 2019.
While both Antony and Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne have said in the past that the fighters will be ready to enter service by 2017, the minister informed Parliament on Monday that series production would start only after the aircraft gets certification.
Antony said the detailed roadmap of the development of the fighters had been carried out with Russia — the lead partner in the programme — and the aircraft was now "scheduled to be certified by 2019, following which series production will start". This means the fighters will not enter service till the early part of the next decade.
This delay will come as a jolt to the Indian Air Force that has been expecting the fighters by 2017-18. In fact, India has not yet gone beyond signing the preliminary design contract of the fighters with Russia. Antony said an agreement on the research and development phase would be signed with Russia this year.
The fighters made their first public appearance at the Moscow Air Show in 2011. Engineers of the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited have started work on its Indian version that will have two pilots unlike the Russian fighters.
There is a sense of urgency to develop the aircraft given that China has progressed on the J 20 — its indigenous new generation fighters
The Indian Express
Defenseblog-njs.blogspot.com
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The americans confidently say no one can build the F-22! Guess they are right for now, i dont see any of those saw tooth type radar angling on Pak-FA on the cockpit etc.,
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^^^^ WILL u plz stop bitchin here ,Really ur pointless 1 liner makes a jack sense .
Atleast do trolling properly Ur trolling like an dumb A$$ idiot.
Atleast do trolling properly Ur trolling like an dumb A$$ idiot.
Anshu Attri
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Delays and challenges for Indo-Russian fighter
Delays and challenges for Indo-Russian fighter
Seven years before its scheduled completion, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has already announced a two-year delay in the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) India and Russia are to jointly develop.
Defence Minister A K Antony has been saying the FGFA would join the Indian Air Force by 2017. On Monday, his deputy, M M Pallam Raju, told Parliament, "The fifth generation aircraft is scheduled to be certified by 2019, following which the series production will start."
The FGFA is the flagship of the Indo-Russian partnership. Both countries say it would be the world's most advanced fighter. But interviews with Indian designers who have overseen the project suggest significant disquiet. There is apprehension the FGFA would significantly exceed its current $6 billion budget, because this figure reflects the expenditure on just the basic aircraft. Crucial avionics systems would cost extra.
On the positive side, Indian designers say the FGFA project would provide invaluable experience in testing and certifying a heavy fighter aircraft that is bigger and more complex than the Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA), India's foundational aerospace achievement.
The Russian and Indian air forces each plan to build about 250 FGFAs, at an estimated cost of $100 million per fighter. That adds up to $25 billion each, in addition to the development cost.
The FGFA's precursor has already flown. In January 2010, Russian company Sukhoi test-flew a prototype called the PAK-FA, the acronym for Perspektivnyi Aviatsionnyi Kompleks Frontovoi Aviatsy (literally prospective aircraft complex of frontline aviation). Now, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) will partner Sukhoi to transform the bare-bones PAK-FA into an FGFA that meets the Indian Air Force (IAF)'s requirements of stealth (near-invisibility to radar), super-cruise (supersonic cruising speed), networking (real-time digital links with other battlefield systems) and world-beating airborne radar that outranges enemy fighters.
But Sukhoi insists the PAK-FA already meets Russia's requirements, says N C Agarwal, HAL's design chief, who spearheaded the FGFA negotiations until his recent retirement. HAL worries Russia might ask India to pay extra for further development, particularly the avionics that transform a mere flying machine into a lethal weapons platform. That would leave the $6-billion budget in tatters.
The IAF clearly wants a top-of-the-line FGFA. According to Ashok Nayak, who spoke to Business Standard as HAL's chairman before retiring last October, the IAF has specified 40-45 improvements that must be made to the PAK-FA. These have been formalised into an agreed list between Russia and India, the Tactical Technical Assignment.
A key IAF requirement is a '360-degree' AESA (airborne electronically scanned active) radar, rather than the AESA radar that Russia developed. Either way, India would pay Russia extra: either in licence fee for the Russian radar; or hundreds of millions, perhaps billions, for developing a world-beating, 360-degree AESA radar.
Nor is the IAF clear on whether the FGFA should be a single-seat fighter like the PAK-FA, or a twin-seat aircraft like the Sukhoi-30MKI. A section of the IAF backs a single-seat fighter, while another prefers two pilots for flying and fighting a complex, networked fighter. During the ongoing preliminary design phase (PDP), for which India paid $295 million, the two sides would determine whether developing the PAK-FA into a twin-seat aircraft (inevitably more bulky) would reduce the FGFA's stealth and performance unacceptably.
"The single-seat FGFA is essential for the IAF, and we will transform the Russian single-seat fighter into our single-seat version with a large component of Indian avionics. The twin-seat version will depend on the PDP conclusions," says Nayak.
The PDP also requires Sukhoi to hand over design documentation to HAL, providing it a detailed insight into the design processes of the PAK-FA. Since India took years to decide to join the FGFA project, HAL missed out the design phase entirely.
The 18-month PDP, which terminates this year, will be followed by the 'R&D phase', which could take another seven years, says the HAL chairman. The FGFA would be designed in both countries. About 100 HAL engineers already operate from a facility in Bangalore. Another contingent would move to Russia to work in the Sukhoi design bureau.
"Our boys will learn the Russian language, their way of working, their design rules and their design norms. We are left-hand drive, while they are right-hand drive. The Russians say they would part with all these things," says Nayak.
But the most valuable learning, say HAL executives, would take place during the FGFA's flight-testing. "Unlike the basic design phase which we missed out on, we will actually gain experience during flight testing. This phase throws up dozens of problems, and we will participate in resolving these, including through design changes," says Agarwal.
HAL designers also relish the FGFA's specific challenges. For achieving stealth, its missiles, rockets and reconnaissance payloads are concealed in an internal bay under the wings. Before using these, a door slides open, exposing the weapon for use.
The Russians clearly believe HAL possesses useful capabilities, including the ability to design the AESA radar. Also attractive is India's experience in composites.
"The LCA programme has generated a high level of expertise in composite materials within the National Aerospace Laboratory and some joint teams. The FGFA requires 'higher modulus' composites, which can withstand the 120-130 degree Centigrade temperatures that arise whilst flying at Mach 1.7 speeds," says Agarwal.
Despite the continuing imponderables, HAL believes the FGFA project provides genuine technological skills, far more useful than licensed manufacture. Agarwal says, "We will pay some $6-7 billion to France for the licence to build the Rafale in HAL. In the FGFA project, a similar sum would bring in genuine design knowledge that will help us in the future."
Delays and challenges for Indo-Russian fighter
Seven years before its scheduled completion, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has already announced a two-year delay in the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) India and Russia are to jointly develop.
Defence Minister A K Antony has been saying the FGFA would join the Indian Air Force by 2017. On Monday, his deputy, M M Pallam Raju, told Parliament, "The fifth generation aircraft is scheduled to be certified by 2019, following which the series production will start."
The FGFA is the flagship of the Indo-Russian partnership. Both countries say it would be the world's most advanced fighter. But interviews with Indian designers who have overseen the project suggest significant disquiet. There is apprehension the FGFA would significantly exceed its current $6 billion budget, because this figure reflects the expenditure on just the basic aircraft. Crucial avionics systems would cost extra.
On the positive side, Indian designers say the FGFA project would provide invaluable experience in testing and certifying a heavy fighter aircraft that is bigger and more complex than the Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA), India's foundational aerospace achievement.
The Russian and Indian air forces each plan to build about 250 FGFAs, at an estimated cost of $100 million per fighter. That adds up to $25 billion each, in addition to the development cost.
The FGFA's precursor has already flown. In January 2010, Russian company Sukhoi test-flew a prototype called the PAK-FA, the acronym for Perspektivnyi Aviatsionnyi Kompleks Frontovoi Aviatsy (literally prospective aircraft complex of frontline aviation). Now, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) will partner Sukhoi to transform the bare-bones PAK-FA into an FGFA that meets the Indian Air Force (IAF)'s requirements of stealth (near-invisibility to radar), super-cruise (supersonic cruising speed), networking (real-time digital links with other battlefield systems) and world-beating airborne radar that outranges enemy fighters.
But Sukhoi insists the PAK-FA already meets Russia's requirements, says N C Agarwal, HAL's design chief, who spearheaded the FGFA negotiations until his recent retirement. HAL worries Russia might ask India to pay extra for further development, particularly the avionics that transform a mere flying machine into a lethal weapons platform. That would leave the $6-billion budget in tatters.
The IAF clearly wants a top-of-the-line FGFA. According to Ashok Nayak, who spoke to Business Standard as HAL's chairman before retiring last October, the IAF has specified 40-45 improvements that must be made to the PAK-FA. These have been formalised into an agreed list between Russia and India, the Tactical Technical Assignment.
A key IAF requirement is a '360-degree' AESA (airborne electronically scanned active) radar, rather than the AESA radar that Russia developed. Either way, India would pay Russia extra: either in licence fee for the Russian radar; or hundreds of millions, perhaps billions, for developing a world-beating, 360-degree AESA radar.
Nor is the IAF clear on whether the FGFA should be a single-seat fighter like the PAK-FA, or a twin-seat aircraft like the Sukhoi-30MKI. A section of the IAF backs a single-seat fighter, while another prefers two pilots for flying and fighting a complex, networked fighter. During the ongoing preliminary design phase (PDP), for which India paid $295 million, the two sides would determine whether developing the PAK-FA into a twin-seat aircraft (inevitably more bulky) would reduce the FGFA's stealth and performance unacceptably.
"The single-seat FGFA is essential for the IAF, and we will transform the Russian single-seat fighter into our single-seat version with a large component of Indian avionics. The twin-seat version will depend on the PDP conclusions," says Nayak.
The PDP also requires Sukhoi to hand over design documentation to HAL, providing it a detailed insight into the design processes of the PAK-FA. Since India took years to decide to join the FGFA project, HAL missed out the design phase entirely.
The 18-month PDP, which terminates this year, will be followed by the 'R&D phase', which could take another seven years, says the HAL chairman. The FGFA would be designed in both countries. About 100 HAL engineers already operate from a facility in Bangalore. Another contingent would move to Russia to work in the Sukhoi design bureau.
"Our boys will learn the Russian language, their way of working, their design rules and their design norms. We are left-hand drive, while they are right-hand drive. The Russians say they would part with all these things," says Nayak.
But the most valuable learning, say HAL executives, would take place during the FGFA's flight-testing. "Unlike the basic design phase which we missed out on, we will actually gain experience during flight testing. This phase throws up dozens of problems, and we will participate in resolving these, including through design changes," says Agarwal.
HAL designers also relish the FGFA's specific challenges. For achieving stealth, its missiles, rockets and reconnaissance payloads are concealed in an internal bay under the wings. Before using these, a door slides open, exposing the weapon for use.
The Russians clearly believe HAL possesses useful capabilities, including the ability to design the AESA radar. Also attractive is India's experience in composites.
"The LCA programme has generated a high level of expertise in composite materials within the National Aerospace Laboratory and some joint teams. The FGFA requires 'higher modulus' composites, which can withstand the 120-130 degree Centigrade temperatures that arise whilst flying at Mach 1.7 speeds," says Agarwal.
Despite the continuing imponderables, HAL believes the FGFA project provides genuine technological skills, far more useful than licensed manufacture. Agarwal says, "We will pay some $6-7 billion to France for the licence to build the Rafale in HAL. In the FGFA project, a similar sum would bring in genuine design knowledge that will help us in the future."
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kaustav2001
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They are simply doing what they did during the su 30 sale. They showed IAF the airplane.. IAF liked the plane but wanted some more features including some major modifications. IAF was told that they would have to pay for some of those changes (& were politely told to take a hike regarding the major modifications suggested -- too much work they were told). So after our millions & suggestions from the IAF... the MKI was born.
But the PAK FA remains a work in progress.
Just my 2 cents.
p2prada
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360 degree AESA eh! Quite ambitious.
We will definitely profit more from this program than Rafale as far as the military industrial complex is concerned.
It is very obvious our PAKFA version and FGFA version will be better than Russia's. It is stupid to assume we should not pay more. Development costs will exceed $6Billion over time as new capabilities are invented. HAL should be more worried about keeping costs in check rather than browbeat the govt on doing more.
We will definitely profit more from this program than Rafale as far as the military industrial complex is concerned.
It is very obvious our PAKFA version and FGFA version will be better than Russia's. It is stupid to assume we should not pay more. Development costs will exceed $6Billion over time as new capabilities are invented. HAL should be more worried about keeping costs in check rather than browbeat the govt on doing more.
bhramos
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Neil
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FGFA: facing delay but worth waiting
The Ministry of Defence has announced a two-year delay in the joint Indo-Russian project, Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA). But Indian designers are upbeat hailing the project as an "invaluable experience in testing and certifying a heavy fighter jet."
Seven years before its scheduled completion, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has already announced a two-year delay in the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), the flagship of the Indo-Russian aviation partnership, Ajai Shukla writes in his "Business Standard" article.
According to "Business Standard", Defence Minister A K Antony has been saying the FGFA would join the Indian Air Force by 2017. On Monday, his deputy, M M Pallam Raju, told Parliament, "The fifth generation aircraft is scheduled to be certified by 2019, following which the series production will start."
India and Russia lay much hope on the FGFA project. Yet, according to Indian designers who have overseen the project, there are still some concerns. Firstly, it's the two-year delay. One more issue is the FGFA's supposed exceeding its current $6 million budget. The Russian and Indian air forces each plan to build about 250 FGFAs, at an estimated cost of $100 million per fighter. That adds up to $25 billion each, in addition to the development cost.
But still Indian designers remain optimistic saying that the FGFA project would provide invaluable experience in testing and certifying a heavy fighter aircraft that is bigger and more complex than the Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA), India's foundational aerospace achievement.
The FGFA's precursor has already flown. In January 2010, Russian company Sukhoi test-flew a prototype called the PAK-FA, the acronym for Perspektivnyi Aviatsionnyi Kompleks Frontovoi Aviatsy (literally prospective aircraft complex of frontline aviation). Now, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) will partner Sukhoi to transform the bare-bones PAK-FA into an FGFA that meets the Indian Air Force (IAF)'s requirements of stealth (near-invisibility to radar), super-cruise (supersonic cruising speed), networking (real-time digital links with other battlefield systems) and world-beating airborne radar that outranges enemy fighters.
The IAF clearly wants a top-of-the-line FGFA. According to Ashok Nayak, who spoke to Business Standard as HAL's chairman before retiring last October, the IAF has specified 40-45 improvements that must be made to the PAK-FA. These have been formalised into an agreed list between Russia and India, the Tactical Technical Assignment.
There are certain requirements the contingent that is to work on the FGFA has to follow.
"Our boys will learn the Russian language, their way of working, their design rules and their design norms. We are left-hand drive, while they are right-hand drive. The Russians say they would part with all these things," says Nayak.
But the most valuable learning, say HAL executives, would take place during the FGFA's flight-testing. "Unlike the basic design phase which we missed out on, we will actually gain experience during flight testing. This phase throws up dozens of problems, and we will participate in Resolving these, including through design changes," says says N.C. Agarwal, HAL's design chief.
Despite the continuing imponderables, HAL believes the FGFA project provides genuine technological skills, far more useful than licensed manufacture. Agarwal says, "We will pay some $6-7 billion to France for the licence to build the Rafale in HAL. In the FGFA project, a similar sum would bring in genuine design knowledge that will help us in the future."
FGFA: facing delay but worth waiting | idrw.org
The Ministry of Defence has announced a two-year delay in the joint Indo-Russian project, Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA). But Indian designers are upbeat hailing the project as an "invaluable experience in testing and certifying a heavy fighter jet."
Seven years before its scheduled completion, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has already announced a two-year delay in the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), the flagship of the Indo-Russian aviation partnership, Ajai Shukla writes in his "Business Standard" article.
According to "Business Standard", Defence Minister A K Antony has been saying the FGFA would join the Indian Air Force by 2017. On Monday, his deputy, M M Pallam Raju, told Parliament, "The fifth generation aircraft is scheduled to be certified by 2019, following which the series production will start."
India and Russia lay much hope on the FGFA project. Yet, according to Indian designers who have overseen the project, there are still some concerns. Firstly, it's the two-year delay. One more issue is the FGFA's supposed exceeding its current $6 million budget. The Russian and Indian air forces each plan to build about 250 FGFAs, at an estimated cost of $100 million per fighter. That adds up to $25 billion each, in addition to the development cost.
But still Indian designers remain optimistic saying that the FGFA project would provide invaluable experience in testing and certifying a heavy fighter aircraft that is bigger and more complex than the Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA), India's foundational aerospace achievement.
The FGFA's precursor has already flown. In January 2010, Russian company Sukhoi test-flew a prototype called the PAK-FA, the acronym for Perspektivnyi Aviatsionnyi Kompleks Frontovoi Aviatsy (literally prospective aircraft complex of frontline aviation). Now, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) will partner Sukhoi to transform the bare-bones PAK-FA into an FGFA that meets the Indian Air Force (IAF)'s requirements of stealth (near-invisibility to radar), super-cruise (supersonic cruising speed), networking (real-time digital links with other battlefield systems) and world-beating airborne radar that outranges enemy fighters.
The IAF clearly wants a top-of-the-line FGFA. According to Ashok Nayak, who spoke to Business Standard as HAL's chairman before retiring last October, the IAF has specified 40-45 improvements that must be made to the PAK-FA. These have been formalised into an agreed list between Russia and India, the Tactical Technical Assignment.
There are certain requirements the contingent that is to work on the FGFA has to follow.
"Our boys will learn the Russian language, their way of working, their design rules and their design norms. We are left-hand drive, while they are right-hand drive. The Russians say they would part with all these things," says Nayak.
But the most valuable learning, say HAL executives, would take place during the FGFA's flight-testing. "Unlike the basic design phase which we missed out on, we will actually gain experience during flight testing. This phase throws up dozens of problems, and we will participate in Resolving these, including through design changes," says says N.C. Agarwal, HAL's design chief.
Despite the continuing imponderables, HAL believes the FGFA project provides genuine technological skills, far more useful than licensed manufacture. Agarwal says, "We will pay some $6-7 billion to France for the licence to build the Rafale in HAL. In the FGFA project, a similar sum would bring in genuine design knowledge that will help us in the future."
FGFA: facing delay but worth waiting | idrw.org
assuming a confirmed order of
200+ fgfa/pakfa
128+rafales
sukhois
lca
(all these guaranteed min)
to absorb the technology and manufacture these by hal will take a very long time.
is it possible according to contracts so that hal can associate with a pvt indian body for manufacturing these aircraft.i mean will france or russians agree for this?
200+ fgfa/pakfa
128+rafales
sukhois
lca
(all these guaranteed min)
to absorb the technology and manufacture these by hal will take a very long time.
is it possible according to contracts so that hal can associate with a pvt indian body for manufacturing these aircraft.i mean will france or russians agree for this?
H.A.
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I guess its possibly taking into account that Flash Forge was allowed in the Scorpene deal, however the firm should have the pre-requisites like experience and infrastructure, manpower etc.
p2prada
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25% of MKI is outsourced to partner companies in India.
Rafale may see more partner companies and FGFA even more. Eventually, someday 60-70% can be outsourced by HAL to other companies.
Russia and France have no problems as long as our secrecy laws are made stronger, if not strong already.
Rafale may see more partner companies and FGFA even more. Eventually, someday 60-70% can be outsourced by HAL to other companies.
Russia and France have no problems as long as our secrecy laws are made stronger, if not strong already.
shuvo@y2k10
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knowing china we can surely say that the cannot gets their hands on 5th generation fighter before 2030(estimated 10years time required by chinese to succesfully copy production model pak-fa/fgfa ) or the time by which pakis get hold of f-35+5 years(required by chinese to copy f-35) whichever time comes early.Knowing Russia and knowing India, there is ZERO chance that the later will lay its hands on the so-called 5th gen. fighters before 2020.
2022, while not probable, is possible.
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Dont feed the troll..
