Sukhoi PAK FA

Quickgun Murugan

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India, Russia to Ink gen-5 fighter pact

"The negotiators have done their job, and the Cabinet Committee for Security will consider the PDC, probably this month," says the ministry official. "If the CCS gives the green signal, as is likely, the contract will be signed during Medvedev's visit."
Cabinet Committee eh? We know how efficiently it works. Will CCS give a green signal is the billion dollar question, rest is just a moo point.


HAL Chairman Ashok Nayak had indicated to Business Standard on a recent visit to HAL, Bangalore, that the deal was done. "It is in the system for approval," said Nayak. "The respective work shares have been agreed to by both sides and once we sign the preliminary design contract, we will finish the design in about 18 months. Developing and building the fighter could take 8-10 years, and each side will pay $6 billion as its share."
8-10 years for building the fighter? We are talking about 2020 induction?

But HAL sources recount that, even after the agreement, Russian negotiators' concerns about sharing top-secret technologies meant that a green signal from Moscow was needed for every step of the negotiations.

"This is the first time that Russia is co-developing a cutting-edge military platform with another country. Therefore, they were unclear about how to share work in a top-secret project like this,"
says a senior HAL official. "Before each step, the Russian officials wanted clearances from the highest level in Moscow. Those 'presidential decrees', as they call them, took their time."
So all this time it was the Russians who were causing the delay with clearance? and I thought it was the Indian officials who were delaying the response.
 

gogbot

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Cabinet Committee eh? We know how efficiently it works. Will CCS give a green signal is the billion dollar question, rest is just a moo point.
So all this time it was the Russians who were causing the delay with clearance? and I thought it was the Indian officials who were delaying the response.
Preconceptions can often blind you to the real questions

8-10 years for building the fighter? We are talking about 2020 induction?
That fits with the original claims of a 2020 or 2022 induction. It was media reports that slowly brought it down to 2018 then 2015.

It could also be HAL learning from past mistakes , rather then telling us they can make it in 4-8 years , they they can just play it safe and give the project a broad deadline so it can avoid the delayed tag.
 

Sri

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PAKFA: India, Russia Likely to Sign Co-Development Agreement in December 2010

PAKFA: India, Russia Likely to Sign Co-Development Agreement in December 2010 | India Defence

India and Russia will each pledge $6 billion to co-develop the a fifth generation fighter aircraft. Russian and Indian negotiators have finalized a preliminary design contract (PDC) after years on negotiation, just in time for Russian President Dimitry Medvedev's visit to India in December.

Business Standard quotes Ministry of Defence officials saying "The negotiators have done their job, and the Cabinet Committee for Security will consider the PDC, probably this month ... If the CCS gives the green signal, as is likely, the contract will be signed during Medvedev's visit."

Ashok Nayak. Chairman of HAL, was quoted in the past weeks saying, "It is in the system for approval .. The respective work shares have been agreed to by both sides and once we sign the preliminary design contract, we will finish the design in about 18 months. Developing and building the fighter could take 8-10 years, and each side will pay $6 billion as its share."

Both the Russian and Indian Air Forces each plan to induct around 250 fighters, at an estimated cost of $100 million per aircraft. That adds up to $25 billion on top of the development cost. The high cost presumably prompted Russia into co-development with India.

Last year high costs and economic downturn forced the United States to limit the F-22 Raptor production to 187 aircrafts - half of the estimate requirement of the USAF. Technologies in the F-22 were critical to America's technological superiority, the fighter was developed and built entirely within the US making production very expensive at $340 million per fighter on top of development costs.

Russia initially offered India partnership in the fighter program in 2002. This project saw a revival in the Russia-India inter-government agreement in November 2007.

This was a first for co-development of fighters by India and Russia. HAL sources commented, "This is the first time that Russia is co-developing a cutting-edge military platform with another country. Therefore, they were unclear about how to share work in a top-secret project like this ... Before each step, the Russian officials wanted clearances from the highest level in Moscow. Those 'presidential decrees', as they call them, took their time."

It has taken nearly years from the inter-government agreement to negotiate a general contract and non-disclosure agreement. In March 2010, a tactical technical assignment was signed, in which the work-shares were agreed upon.

Sukhoi Design Bureau has built a basic fifth-generation fighter - the PAK-FA (Perspektivnyi Aviatsionnyi Kompleks Frontovoi Aviatsy). A prototype made its first flight in January 2010.

India's will contribute to roughly 30% of the design effort. This will center on composite components and high-end electronics like the mission computer, avionics, cockpit displays and the electronic warfare systems. In addition, India will have to redesign the single-seat PAK-FA into the two-seater fighter that the IAF prefers. Like the Sukhoi-30MKI, IAF prefers one pilot flying and the other handling sensors, networks and weaponry.

References:
-- Business Standard
-- Wikipedia
 

Tshering22

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There's very limited stuff left to develop in the PAKFA--- and that is

1) the 2 seater FGFA version of it.
2) Internal weapons bay
3) Testing weapons integration
4) getting that new engine (almost complete) ready.
5) integrating avionics and radars into the fighter

I think Sukhoi had an idea that HAL Sarkari dodos would be slow, lethargic and inexplicably bureaucratic, so maybe they went ahead first as fast as possible completing 80-85% of the fighter on their own and then hand over some menial work to HAL and party. Smart ploy and a win-win situation. HAL gets to pretend to be a bigshot in a key project, broaden its deadlines as opposed to the usual delay tag it always has, as well as Russians get Indian money to continue with the fighter.

I think we should scrap the FGFA 2-seater version and go along with 250 of single seaters designed in India itself.
 

Tshering22

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There's another possibility that the deal might be already signed and that media is being mis-directed to keep showing the "is going to chapter" to keep the hype up. Remember that we were all having no idea when we would have Arihant and suddenly it came into the scene. So even that is a possibility that the bigger part of deal deal has been signed but only something smaller is left to sign up now.
 

gogbot

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@jatkshatriya
mann by 2020 US will have a 6th gen plane....will we ever become a world class force
When Indian can afford to spend up to trillion dollars on Defense as the US does. Then you can compare to the US on equal.

You have to be realistic and practical About your expectations. You do what you can with the resources we have , you can't give a pittance and ask for an Aicraft carrier.
What we want by 2020 hopefully , is a more modern force with Futuristic ambitions.

@Quickgun Murugan
I wont believe HAL's claim even in 2020.
HAL has given you no reason to believe.
But then again the PAk-Fa is already flying , Courtesy of Sukhoi.

But Keep in Mid in the most recent example , HAL has delivered
I though they did a decent job on the LCH.
 

EagleOne

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@jatKshatriya
mann by 2020 US will have a 6th gen plane....will we ever become a world class force

1)6th gen fighter will be 2025 to 2030 timespan
2)we will be the induct a 5th gen fighter before 2020 and these are twin seater will start from 2020 we will be inducting 50 single seater of russian version starting from 2017
us air force is introducing F-35 from 2014 so we will introduce in 2017-2018
 

shuvo@y2k10

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the fourth generation of fighters took about 3 decades to promote to fifth generation(and apart from us all other nations are still operating 4 th gen planes).the sixth generation plane will come by 2040-2050 timeline at the earliest. if the US produces something by 2020 then it will be an improved 5 th generation plane or 5.5 generation plane.
 

LETHALFORCE

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India, Russia to Ink gen-5 fighter pact

India, Russia to Ink gen-5 fighter pact


Each side to pledge $6 bn to co-develop plane.

Late on Thursday evening, in a triumph for the Russia-India defence relationship, the two countries signed off on a joint venture to co-develop a 15-20-tonne payload, 2,500-km range multi-role transport aircraft (MTA), which will replace the Indian Air Force's venerable AN-32 at the end of the next decade.

But this path-breaking $600-million co-development of the MTA is likely to be dwarfed soon, when India and Russia each pledge $6 billion to co-develop the world's premier fighter, a step ahead of the US Air Force's F-22 Raptor, which currently rules the skies.

Senior defence ministry sources have confirmed to Business Standard that years of tortuous negotiations have been successfully concluded in time for Russian President Dimitry Medvedev's visit to India in December. Russian and Indian negotiators have finalised a preliminary design contract (PDC), a key document that will allow designers from both sides to actually begin work on the fighter.

"The negotiators have done their job, and the Cabinet Committee for Security will consider the PDC, probably this month," says the ministry official. "If the CCS gives the green signal, as is likely, the contract will be signed during Medvedev's visit."

HAL Chairman Ashok Nayak had indicated to Business Standard on a recent visit to HAL, Bangalore, that the deal was done. "It is in the system for approval," said Nayak. "The respective work shares have been agreed to by both sides and once we sign the preliminary design contract, we will finish the design in about 18 months. Developing and building the fighter could take 8-10 years, and each side will pay $6 billion as its share."

The Russian and Indian Air Forces each plan to build around 250 fighters, at an estimated cost of $100 million each. That adds up to $25 billion, over and above the development cost.

These astronomical figures prompted Russia into co-development with India. The inescapability of cost sharing was reinforced last year when the Pentagon was forced to shut down its F-22 Raptor programme. Since the technologies in the F-22 were deemed crucial to America's technological superiority, the fighter was developed and built entirely within the US. As a result, its prohibitive cost — $340 million per fighter — forced the Pentagon to cap the programme at 187 fighters, just half what it planned to buy in 2006.

"If the US could not afford to go it alone on a fifth-generation fighter, Russia clearly cannot," points out a senior Indian Air Force officer. "There was no choice but to co-opt India as a partner."

Russia initially offered India partnership in the fighter programme around eight years ago, but there was little clarity then on crucial issues like work-share, ie, what systems and components each side would develop. From 2005-07, India's growing closeness with the US slowed down the project. Progress received a boost from the Russia-India inter-government agreement in November 07.

But HAL sources recount that, even after the agreement, Russian negotiators' concerns about sharing top-secret technologies meant that a green signal from Moscow was needed for every step of the negotiations.

"This is the first time that Russia is co-developing a cutting-edge military platform with another country. Therefore, they were unclear about how to share work in a top-secret project like this," says a senior HAL official. "Before each step, the Russian officials wanted clearances from the highest level in Moscow. Those 'presidential decrees', as they call them, took their time."

Consequently, says the HAL chairman, it has taken almost three years from the inter-government agreement to negotiate a general contract and non-disclosure agreement. In March 2010, a tactical technical assignment was signed, in which the work-shares were agreed upon.

Meanwhile, Russia's Sukhoi Design Bureau has built a basic fifth-generation fighter, which Russia terms the PAK-FA, an acronym for Perspektivnyi Aviatsionnyi Kompleks Frontovoi Aviatsy (literally Prospective Aircraft Complex of Frontline Aviation). A prototype, tailored to Russian Air Force requirements, made its first flight in January 2010.

India's work-share for the joint fighter programme, according to HAL officials, will amount to about 30% of the overall design effort. This will centre on composite components and high-end electronics like the mission computer, avionics, cockpit displays and the electronic warfare systems. Additionally, India will have to redesign the single-seat PAK-FA into the two-seater fighter that the IAF prefers. Like the Sukhoi-30MKI, IAF prefers one pilot flying and the other handling sensors, networks and weaponry.
 

Raj Malhotra

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AMCA will go the LCA & Arjun way. While India has allocated only US$ 1 billion for AMCA but India is ready to spend US$ 6 Billion for Russian planes. The technology for PAKFA will ultimately end up in China. So India is funding its arch nemesis.

Note that there is no collaboration on engines, gearbox, fuel injection system, FBW, radar, IRST, ejection seats, actuators, landing gear, hydraulics etc which represent 90% of any fighter aircraft. India does not even have right to make its own simulators. India is being tied down to PAKFA with no right to go for independent engines or even a different radar. This is same way India has been taken to the cleaners in Brahmos, T-90 deals.

Now the last point is whether US$ 6 billion will be spent in India or India will pay the Russians to augment their own R&D at our expense. I can bet my last dollar that all work will be done in Russia. Things will go over budget and Indian contribution will increase to US$ 10-15 Billion. AMCA will be killed like Arjun/LCA vs T-90/Su-30MKI. All the money will go to Russian labs and nothing will be setup in India.

One can add that Russians have never adhered to DPP, so no offsets of 30-50% will be given to India. India will just get a label of JV for committing something like US$ 10 + 50 + 50 = 110 Billion in future tax payers money to Russia

The same issue is with MRTA is also there. in so called 50:50 collaboration, India has no role to play in Russian engines and no right to choose something different or better.

Take Brahmos JV, India gets to manufacture only the container of missile and fuel tanks. The seeker and engine comes from Russia. Only now engine might be made in India. This is also supposed to be 50:50 joint venture. In which India gives practically 100% of the money/orders while Russia gets to manufacture practically 100% of the missile componentsAMCA will go the LCA & Arjun way. While India has allocated only US$ 1 billion for AMCA but India is ready to spend US$ 6 Billion for Russian planes. The technology for PAKFA will ultimately end up in China. So India is funding its arch nemesis.

Note that there is no collaboration on engines, gearbox, fuel injection system, FBW, radar, IRST, ejection seats, actuators, landing gear, hydraulics etc which represent 90% of any fighter aircraft. India does not even have right to make its own simulators. India is being tied down to PAKFA with no right to go for independent engines or even a different radar. This is same way India has been taken to the cleaners in Brahmos, T-90 deals.

Now the last point is whether US$ 6 billion will be spent in India or India will pay the Russians to augment their own R&D at our expense. I can bet my last dollar that all work will be done in Russia. Things will go over budget and Indian contribution will increase to US$ 10-15 Billion. AMCA will be killed like Arjun/LCA vs T-90/Su-30MKI. All the money will go to Russian labs and nothing will be setup in India.

One can add that Russians have never adhered to DPP, so no offsets of 30-50% will be given to India. India will just get a label of JV for committing something like US$ 10 + 50 + 50 = 110 Billion in future tax payers money to Russia

The same issue is with MRTA is also there. in so called 50:50 collaboration, India has no role to play in Russian engines and no right to choose something different or better.

Take Brahmos JV, India gets to manufacture only the container of missile and fuel tanks. The seeker and engine comes from Russia. Only now engine might be made in India. This is also supposed to be 50:50 joint venture. In which India gives practically 100% of the money/orders while Russia gets to manufacture practically 100% of the missile components
 

Anshu Attri

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Russia to export 600 Sukhoi PAK FA fifth generation jets - English pravda.ru


Russia to export 600 Sukhoi PAK FA fifth generation jets

Russia is capable of exporting over 600 units of the fifth generation fighter Sukhoi. According to experts of the Center for Analysis of the Global Arms Trade, it is planned to build at least a thousand of these aircraft. The expected order of the Russian Air Force during the years of 2020-2040 with a favorable economic scenario in the country may reach 400-450 units.


In general, the volume of potential export orders for the PAK FA, considering India, could reach 548-686 fighters. Currently, the only foreign member of the PAK FA program is India, which plans to have no less than 250 units of fifth-generation fighter in service of its air force. They will be built on the basis of the Russian PAK FA, but the level of licensing control of the Russian side for the future model of the fifth generation aircraft is unknown.


In July of 2010, General Director of Sukhoi Mikhail Pogosyan said that the contract with India may be signed before the end of this year. The details of future cooperation of Sukhoi and the leading Indian corporation Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) participating in the development have not been reported.
Based on the forecast, the potential buyers of PAK FA are distributed between the following countries: Algeria (can purchase 24-36 fifth-generation fighters in the period of 2025-2030 years), Argentina (12-24 units in the years 2035-2040), Brazil (24 - 36 units in the years 2030-2035), Venezuela (24-36 units in the years 2027-2032), Vietnam (12-24 units in the years 2030-2035), Egypt (12-24 units in the years 2040-2045).


Also, Indonesia (6-12 units in the years 2028-2032), Iran (36-48 units in the years 2035-2040), Kazakhstan (12-24 units in the years 2025-2035), China (up to 100 units in the years 2025-2035)?????????, Libya (12-24 units in the years 2025-2030), Malaysia (12-24 units in the years 2035-2040), and Syria (12-24 units in the years 2025-2030).


The real competitor to the PAK FA in the foreseeable future is only the F-35 Lightning-2, as a heavy version of the U.S. fifth generation fighter F-22. Due to its excessive price (approximately $250 million per aircraft for export) there is hardly the demand in the world arms market.


In addition, in the first half of the twenty-first century, a number of countries faced growing competition from the U.S. They want to save the independence in policy and will have to seek cooperation partners in the production of high-tech weapons systems, analysts say.


In the future, a number of Western European countries and, above all, France and possibly Germany, will show the practical interest in the partnership with Russia to develop fifth generation fighter. They will not be able to implement similar program independently, from scratch. They will not want to buy the F-35, as is done now by other countries, because they do not want to get into the technological, and as a consequence, political dependence on the U.S.


The fifth-generation aircraft is planned to take part in the aerospace show MAKS-2011. General Director of Sukhoi said that the aircraft had carried out 16 test flights, and to date the extent of its systems in terms of reliability and security allows for the program of flight tests in full. During the years 2011-12 it is planned to complete testing of the new fighter.

First Deputy Defense Minister Vladimir Popovkin estimated the need for Air Force fighter of the fifth generation at 50-100 units. By the way, Russia's own needs in the new generation of the equipment, given the size of the country, are estimated as very modest. In 2013-2015 the Ministry of Defense will buy the installation batch of ten aircrafts, and by 2020 a serial batch of 60 units will be purchased for the Air Force.


According to the Stockholm Peace Research Institute (SIPRI), Russia ranked second worldwide in terms of weapons exported. On the world market, Russia's share is 23%, while the USA has 30%. In 2001-2005, Russia has been a leader in supplying arms overseas - 31% vs. 30% of the U.S. Russia spends four times less than Japan, Germany and three times less than the Czech Republic on research and experimental development.
 
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Anshu Attri

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$11 bn defence deals lined up for Prez visits - The Economic Times


$11 bn defence deals lined up for Prez visits


NEW DELHI: There is nothing like mega arms deals to sweeten presidential visits. With Obama, Sarkozy and Medvedev slated to come here in November-December , India is fast-tracking major defence contracts with US, France and Russia.

The high-profile visits will, of course,see bilateral talks and agreements on a host of nonmilitary issues. But with India being one of the world's largest importers of military hardware and software—it has inked contracts worth over $50 billion since the 1999 Kargil conflictvisits here are often used to push defence deals to serve larger geo-strategic interests.

While France will get the over $2.1 billion Mirage-2000 upgrade contract, India is likely to shell out $6 billion for the Russian Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA fighter aircraft (FGFA) project.
Superior to US Raptor, Sukhoi PAK-FA to fit IAF needs

New Delhi: Besides France and Russia , India is on course to finalize its biggest-ever defence contract with the US for 10 C-17 Globemaster-III giant strategic airlift aircraft, which will come for upwards of $3 billion, under the American Foreign Military Sales (FMS) programme. "The Mirage and FGFA contracts will probably be inked during the visits of Sarkozy and Medvedev in December. The C-17 negotiations, however , might not be concluded by the time Obama comes visiting in early-November ," said a senior official.

India and France have been negotiating the upgrade of 56 Mirage-2000 s, which were first inducted into the IAF combat fleet in the mid-1980 s, for over three years now. But the bone of contention till now was the upgrade price being demanded by French companies Dassault Aviation (aircraft manufacturer ), Thales (weapons systems integrator ) and MBDA (missile supplier ), which was around 30% more than what India was ready to pay. "But the project has been finalized now, with only a few contractual issues left to be ironed out,'' said another official. Similarly, New Delhi and Moscow have for long been negotiating the detailed commercial and design contract for the FGFA, with India keen on inducting 250 of these fighters from cash-strapped Russia from 2017-2018 onwards, as reported by TOI earlier.

Billed as superior to the American F/A-22 'Raptor' , the world's only operational FGFA as of now, the Sukhoi PAK-FA for India will now be tailored to the IAF's requirements, with Hindustan Aeronautics as a codeveloper . "Our FGFA will be much cheaper than Raptor or the F-35 (being developed jointly by the US, UK and seven other countries). Phase-I of the FGFA contract with Russia has been finalised, which will now go to the CCS for approval. Later, Phase-II will be finalized," the official said.
The US, on its part, is now cornering a major chunk of the Indian defence market . After the $2.1 billion for eight P-8 I long-range maritime reconnaissance aircraft inked in 2009, all eyes are now on the C-17 contract. India, in fact, may even go for another six C-17 s after the first 10.
 

Anshu Attri

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Country Estimate number of fighter jets Predicted Time Frame
Russia 400-450 2020-2040
India 250 2020-2040
China 100 2025-2035
Algeria 24-36 2025-2030
Argentina 12-24 2035-2040
Brazil 24-36 2030-2035
Venezuela 24-36 2027-2032
Vietnam 12-24 2030-2035
Egypt 12-24 2040-2045
Indonesia 6-12 2028-2032
Iran 36-48 2035-2040
Kazakhstan 12-24 2025-2035
Libya 12-24 2025-2030

Malaysia 12-242035-2040
Syria 12-24 2025-2030
 
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shuvo@y2k10

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in the time frame of 2020-2040 IAF must have atleast 750 pak-fgfa and 150 naval fgfa. and equal no. of amca .the no. might seem too high but it is essential to match the current strength of PLAAF(in terms of quantity ).we will be world's 3rd largest economy by then(hopefully second) and the fighter requirement then will be much different than now
 

vikramrana_1812

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Whatever is the future plan...I hope India complete all of their plans in time and schedule because we are already running late in schedules to induct fighter planes in IAF....I really hope by 2020 IAF will be one of the deadliest airforces of the world.......
 

Rahul92

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India doesn't require license from Russia as it is just a partner we can make them according to our wish like bramhos:happy_2:
 

Crusader53

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Country Estimate number of fighter jets Predicted Time Frame
Russia 400-450 2020-2040
India 250 2020-2040
China 100 2025-2035
Algeria 24-36 2025-2030
Argentina 12-24 2035-2040
Brazil 24-36 2030-2035
Venezuela 24-36 2027-2032
Vietnam 12-24 2030-2035
Egypt 12-24 2040-2045
Indonesia 6-12 2028-2032
Iran 36-48 2035-2040
Kazakhstan 12-24 2025-2035
Libya 12-24 2025-2030

Malaysia 12-242035-2040
Syria 12-24 2025-2030

How many members have stated that Russia would not export the PAK-FA to China.
 

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