bhramos
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Sukhoi PAK FA
- Thread starter Anshu Attri
- Start date
prohumanity
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India should get this baby...its cool...atleast 200 of them. India really does not have any enemy other than just one...Paki.....
Indian defense strategy should be to prepare extremely to deal with just this one enemy...These fighter jets can keep Paki in perpetual fear so it does not raise more terrorists.
Indian defense strategy should be to prepare extremely to deal with just this one enemy...These fighter jets can keep Paki in perpetual fear so it does not raise more terrorists.
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You can keep Pakis in perpetual fear with a toothpick. It is China that is the real threat.
bhramos
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IAF will or may never get this baby.... there is rumor in Defence circles going on... that Ambani & Tata asked T-50 production line, HAL rejected it. so they want IAF to get F-35, so Tata went to USA and brought F-16 & F-35 future production rights from Lockhead.....
prohumanity
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The danger of relying on a country who supported and weaponized India's arch-enemy, (Paki) is that... that country can suddenly change and fall in love again with their old poodle love. Now, India got these weapons and get into war with Paki...only to find out that spare parts are blocked...weapons codes withheld...thus..making India's billions of dollars of investment go in dust and the country left in limbo.
My point is that India should only trust a nation which has proven a reliable partner(like Russia ) or a neutral
nation..like Sweden.
Avoid any of the opportunistic powers who have history of supporting Paki against India or two faced profiteers like France.
Quality of weapons is important but what is more important is reliability of source who supplies the weapons..one who does not ditch India when the need is there.
Don't forget Paki is still "most allied non-NATO ally" The title is alive and well. Paki can be useful to its old masters still now...only some bread crumbs need to thrown at it.
My point is that India should only trust a nation which has proven a reliable partner(like Russia ) or a neutral
nation..like Sweden.
Avoid any of the opportunistic powers who have history of supporting Paki against India or two faced profiteers like France.
Quality of weapons is important but what is more important is reliability of source who supplies the weapons..one who does not ditch India when the need is there.
Don't forget Paki is still "most allied non-NATO ally" The title is alive and well. Paki can be useful to its old masters still now...only some bread crumbs need to thrown at it.
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WolfPack86
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The proposal for India and Russia to jointly develop an advanced fighter — the eponymous Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) — has been formally buried. Business Standard has learnt that National Security Advisor Ajit Doval conveyed the decision to a Russian ministerial delegation at a “Defence Acquisition Meeting” in end-February.
Doval and Defence Secretary Sanjay Mitra, who attended the meeting, asked the Russians to proceed alone with developing their fifth-generation fighter. They said India might possibly join the project later, or buy the fully developed fighter outright, after it entered service with the Russian Air Force.
New Delhi and Moscow have discussed the FGFA since 2007, when they agreed that Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) would partner Russia’s Sukhoi Design Bureau (Sukhoi) in developing and manufacturing the fighter. In 2010, Sukhoi flew the fighter, called Perspektivny Aviatsionny Kompleks Frontovoy Aviatsii, or “Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation” (PAK-FA). Seven prototypes are currently in flight-testing.
Russia said the PAK-FA met its needs, but the India Air Force (IAF) wanted a better fighter. So HAL and Sukhoi negotiated an $8.63-billion deal to improve the PAK-FA with the IAF’s requirements of stealth (near-invisibility to radar), super-cruise (supersonic cruising speed), networking (real-time digital links with other battlefield systems) and airborne radar with world-beating range. In all, the IAF demanded some 50 improvements to the PAK-FA, including 360-degree radar and more powerful engines.
Defence ministry sources who played a direct role in negotiations with Russia say much of this money was earmarked for Indian production facilities for manufacturing 127 FGFAs, and for India’s work share in developing advanced avionics for the fighter. It also included the cost of four PAK-FA prototypes for IAF test pilots to fly.
Now, the IAF has backed away from the FGFA because it argues the PAK-FA — which Sukhoi has been test-flying since January 2010 — is not stealthy enough for a fifth-generation combat aircraft.
Aerospace analysts who support the PAK-FA reject this argument. They point out that the US Air Force F-22 Raptor, was built with an extraordinary degree of stealth, but that proved to be counterproductive, since it resulted in high maintenance and life-cycle costs. Burned by that emphasis on stealth alone, US designers de-emphasised stealth while building their latest fifth-generation fighter, the F-35 Lightning II. Instead, they focused on building its combat edge through better sensors, highly networked avionics and superior long-range weapons.
The cancellation of the FGFA project has far-reaching implications for the IAF, for which this was once its high-tech future fighter. United Progressive Alliance (UPA) defence minister AK Antony had ruled out buying the F-35 Lightning II, arguing that India would have the FGFA to meet its fifth-generation fighter needs.
Indian aerospace designers also cited the FGFA experience as essential learning for developing the indigenous fifth generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), which the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) is pursuing.
Now, the FGFA’s burial sets the stage for the IAF to eventually acquire the F-35 Lightning II, which comes in air force as well as naval variants. Indian military aviation, once overwhelmingly dependent upon Russian fighters, helicopters and transport aircraft, has steadily increased its purchases from America. On Tuesday, appearing before a US Senate panel for his confirmation hearings, Admiral Philip Davidson — nominated as the top US military commander in the Indo-Pacific, said the US should aspire to “break down” India’s historical dependence upon Russia.
The IAF has been split down the middle on the FGFA. Broadly, flying branch officers of the “French school”– whose careers have centred on the Mirage and Jaguar fighters — have tended to oppose the FGFA. Meanwhile, officers from the “Russian school”, their careers grounded in the MiG and Sukhoi fleet, have supported the FGFA.
Opponents of the FGFA have even argued that the project would duplicate and hinder the indigenous AMCA project. However, last July, an experts group headed by Air Marshal (Retired) S Varthaman, set up to consider this question, ruled that there were no conflict lines between the FGFA and AMCA. It stated that the technological expertise that would be gained from working with Russian experts would benefit the AMCA project.
In co-developing the FGFA, HAL was expected to deploy its experience in working with composite materials, which were to replace many of the metal fabricated panels on the PAK-FA. India was also expected to participate in designing the 360-degree active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar. In addition, the experience of flight-testing the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft would be refined by flight-testing a heavier, more complex fighter.
These challenges were expected to imbue Indian engineers with genuine design skills, of a far higher magnitude than the lessons learnt from licensed manufacture.
In addition, the FGFA’s foreclosure means the loss of $295 million that India sunk into its “preliminary design phase” between 2010 and 2013.
https://www.facebook.com/pg/TeamINDRA/photos/?ref=page_internal
Doval and Defence Secretary Sanjay Mitra, who attended the meeting, asked the Russians to proceed alone with developing their fifth-generation fighter. They said India might possibly join the project later, or buy the fully developed fighter outright, after it entered service with the Russian Air Force.
New Delhi and Moscow have discussed the FGFA since 2007, when they agreed that Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) would partner Russia’s Sukhoi Design Bureau (Sukhoi) in developing and manufacturing the fighter. In 2010, Sukhoi flew the fighter, called Perspektivny Aviatsionny Kompleks Frontovoy Aviatsii, or “Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation” (PAK-FA). Seven prototypes are currently in flight-testing.
Russia said the PAK-FA met its needs, but the India Air Force (IAF) wanted a better fighter. So HAL and Sukhoi negotiated an $8.63-billion deal to improve the PAK-FA with the IAF’s requirements of stealth (near-invisibility to radar), super-cruise (supersonic cruising speed), networking (real-time digital links with other battlefield systems) and airborne radar with world-beating range. In all, the IAF demanded some 50 improvements to the PAK-FA, including 360-degree radar and more powerful engines.
Defence ministry sources who played a direct role in negotiations with Russia say much of this money was earmarked for Indian production facilities for manufacturing 127 FGFAs, and for India’s work share in developing advanced avionics for the fighter. It also included the cost of four PAK-FA prototypes for IAF test pilots to fly.
Now, the IAF has backed away from the FGFA because it argues the PAK-FA — which Sukhoi has been test-flying since January 2010 — is not stealthy enough for a fifth-generation combat aircraft.
Aerospace analysts who support the PAK-FA reject this argument. They point out that the US Air Force F-22 Raptor, was built with an extraordinary degree of stealth, but that proved to be counterproductive, since it resulted in high maintenance and life-cycle costs. Burned by that emphasis on stealth alone, US designers de-emphasised stealth while building their latest fifth-generation fighter, the F-35 Lightning II. Instead, they focused on building its combat edge through better sensors, highly networked avionics and superior long-range weapons.
The cancellation of the FGFA project has far-reaching implications for the IAF, for which this was once its high-tech future fighter. United Progressive Alliance (UPA) defence minister AK Antony had ruled out buying the F-35 Lightning II, arguing that India would have the FGFA to meet its fifth-generation fighter needs.
Indian aerospace designers also cited the FGFA experience as essential learning for developing the indigenous fifth generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), which the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) is pursuing.
Now, the FGFA’s burial sets the stage for the IAF to eventually acquire the F-35 Lightning II, which comes in air force as well as naval variants. Indian military aviation, once overwhelmingly dependent upon Russian fighters, helicopters and transport aircraft, has steadily increased its purchases from America. On Tuesday, appearing before a US Senate panel for his confirmation hearings, Admiral Philip Davidson — nominated as the top US military commander in the Indo-Pacific, said the US should aspire to “break down” India’s historical dependence upon Russia.
The IAF has been split down the middle on the FGFA. Broadly, flying branch officers of the “French school”– whose careers have centred on the Mirage and Jaguar fighters — have tended to oppose the FGFA. Meanwhile, officers from the “Russian school”, their careers grounded in the MiG and Sukhoi fleet, have supported the FGFA.
Opponents of the FGFA have even argued that the project would duplicate and hinder the indigenous AMCA project. However, last July, an experts group headed by Air Marshal (Retired) S Varthaman, set up to consider this question, ruled that there were no conflict lines between the FGFA and AMCA. It stated that the technological expertise that would be gained from working with Russian experts would benefit the AMCA project.
In co-developing the FGFA, HAL was expected to deploy its experience in working with composite materials, which were to replace many of the metal fabricated panels on the PAK-FA. India was also expected to participate in designing the 360-degree active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar. In addition, the experience of flight-testing the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft would be refined by flight-testing a heavier, more complex fighter.
These challenges were expected to imbue Indian engineers with genuine design skills, of a far higher magnitude than the lessons learnt from licensed manufacture.
In addition, the FGFA’s foreclosure means the loss of $295 million that India sunk into its “preliminary design phase” between 2010 and 2013.
https://www.facebook.com/pg/TeamINDRA/photos/?ref=page_internal
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Only retarded people fight with imported equipment. In a war, one may have to buy 5000 aircraft, 10000tanks, lakhs of ammunition etc. From where are you going to fund these?
One must always seek technology transfers. Those who give them are friends and those who don't give are not friends. The special relationship with Russia is based on the mutual trust shown - Russia has given lot if ToT to India and in many cases, for free. Even after USSR collapse, Russia gave cryogenic engine snd Su30.
prohumanity
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Many western nations are very eager to sell India expensive weapons but do not want to transfer technology because TOT reduces India's dependence on them in the future.
Long term conspiracy of these profiteering nations and their lock-heeds... is to create bitter enmity between India and China as that ensures decades of constant funneling of more and more weapons in the regions and make hundreds of billions of dollars.
If China and India decide not to be bitter enemies...the bloodsucker military industrial complex of West will be very disappointed . Why can't India and China have a "NO WAR AGREEMENT'" for next 20 years ?
I fail to understand why India has to buy all these extremely expensive toys...why not create thousands of Prithvi's and Agni nuclear missiles and declare that if any country dare to attack India...India will go and launch these missiles immediately.
Why it is necessary to go by the rules made by these heartless weapon makers and sellers ? Why some one else is allowed to decide what weapons are allowed to be used in case of attack on India ?
India needs its money for development and well-being of its 1.2 billion people..
Best option is to make your own weapons ....second best option is to buy from the most reliable friendly nation who has minimum chance of betraying India.
The countries to avoid are (1) Past colonial rulers of India (they won't change) (2) Countries who supported and supplied weapons to India's enemy, Pakistan in the past (3) Any nation who threatened India of use of force in the past.
Also, even with somewhat less sophisticated fighter jets, if pilots have courage to die... a war can be won...can't you find just 5000 pilots in a population of 1200 million people who would dare fly these jets loaded with nukes..right into enemy's country...If these terrorists can die for their ideas...why can't some Indians die for their motherland in case of war.
Courage is the most advanced technology.....cowards only hide behind expensive weapons-technology.
Long term conspiracy of these profiteering nations and their lock-heeds... is to create bitter enmity between India and China as that ensures decades of constant funneling of more and more weapons in the regions and make hundreds of billions of dollars.
If China and India decide not to be bitter enemies...the bloodsucker military industrial complex of West will be very disappointed . Why can't India and China have a "NO WAR AGREEMENT'" for next 20 years ?
I fail to understand why India has to buy all these extremely expensive toys...why not create thousands of Prithvi's and Agni nuclear missiles and declare that if any country dare to attack India...India will go and launch these missiles immediately.
Why it is necessary to go by the rules made by these heartless weapon makers and sellers ? Why some one else is allowed to decide what weapons are allowed to be used in case of attack on India ?
India needs its money for development and well-being of its 1.2 billion people..
Best option is to make your own weapons ....second best option is to buy from the most reliable friendly nation who has minimum chance of betraying India.
The countries to avoid are (1) Past colonial rulers of India (they won't change) (2) Countries who supported and supplied weapons to India's enemy, Pakistan in the past (3) Any nation who threatened India of use of force in the past.
Also, even with somewhat less sophisticated fighter jets, if pilots have courage to die... a war can be won...can't you find just 5000 pilots in a population of 1200 million people who would dare fly these jets loaded with nukes..right into enemy's country...If these terrorists can die for their ideas...why can't some Indians die for their motherland in case of war.
Courage is the most advanced technology.....cowards only hide behind expensive weapons-technology.
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scatterStorm
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Members, this is an SU57 thread, please don't have your geo-political conversation over here, there's a separate thread for it.
Now I request some information of the current deal for FGFA, is it dead? Or is it just pure sabotage?
Now I request some information of the current deal for FGFA, is it dead? Or is it just pure sabotage?
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Because the Chinks can't be trusted!
Remember how the "NO War AGREEMENT" turned out for USSR?
PRC had immediately proved that it isn't any different from Nazi Germany back when we trusted it for once... *cough* Hindi-Chini-Vai-Vai *cough*
Bottomline, we need a 5th Generation Air-Superiority fighter as quickly as possible, & 8g capable AMCA might not be it!
If India has really washed it's hands off FGFA, then we need to think fast.
Collaboration with Japan maybe...?
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What is the problem with AMCA? The bidy if AMCA is streamlined to increase stealth but which in return can decrease maneuverability.
Su57 increases maneuverability at the expense of stealth. I don't understand the difference between Su57 & Su35
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You answered your own question.
If it's 8g capable, then it'll likely be used only as a medium strike-fighter.
If we don't want to our all our eggs in the stealth-basket, then we'll need a more manoeuvrable fighter-interceptor for Air Superiority roles... the place of FGFA!
Unless they are planning on having two version of AMCA (could be)!
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There are indeed two version of AMCA one is stealth other isn't.
I think @porky_kicker has the photos
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I think I have made it clear too. The air superiority comes via stealth, not super-maneuverability. If the enemy can't detect, enemy can't shoot.
The balance between stealth & maneuverability is a trade-off. For maneuverability, India has Su30 and for stealth it has AMCA
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AMCA has no variants. Only currently available on design is NGTD. Shiv AROOR's idiotic reporting made this shit confusion. AMCA had stealth as well as heavily armed variant not stealth and non stealth variant.
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That's simply brochure doesn't suggest the requirement but by the air force, but basic detail of the aircraft.
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bhramos
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i feel sabotage against Su-57...............................................................
This is a good decision by Indian military planners & the IAF. It shows that they see beyond the facade of stealth on the PAK-FA. PAK-FA is a shoddy attempt by the Russian to produce a stealth fighter - it doesn't have the avionics, radar, networking or sensors that would make a stealth fighter effective.
The Russians were try to pull the wool over the eyes of India and have India finance a major portion of the development of a platform that does not even come close. The IAF saw thru it.
The Russians were try to pull the wool over the eyes of India and have India finance a major portion of the development of a platform that does not even come close. The IAF saw thru it.
sthf
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Man that is one stunningly beautiful machine. I fell in love everytime I see new pics.T-50-4 PAKFA Su-57 Frazor get repainted....
Sukhoi T-50-10 Su-57 Frazor ......
