Sukhoi PAK FA

[Spectribution]

Can HAL complete the FGFA project on its own? that is can it develop the PMF FGFA fighter on its own without Russian assistance in case India formally decides to withdraw from the program?

HAL is a white elephant. In future it will be auctioned off to private players in pieces. Even their chief is lobbying for FGFA.

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...s-sale-of-10-stake-in-hal-117100100248_1.html

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

FGFA can be developed in India itself without Russian involvement in case we decide to formally pull out from the JV. The Project (Advanced Heavy Combat Aircraft AHCA) can be pursued as follows:
Airframe : ADA+ HAL
Avionics: DARE+BEL
RADAR : UTTAM AESA derivative
Engine : Kaveri derivative or indegeneous developement based on AL-31 which is made under TOT in HAL.
Also since FGFA is very different from PAK-FA and will incorporate the IAF ASQR we won't run into IP issues with Russians. it will help us save 6 billion $ R&D fund the Russians are asking and develop Indian aviation sector. A different team can handle the project than the one doing AMCA project. By this way we will recover some of the 295 million $ invested in preliminary R &D with Russian and we came up a early design concept showcased in Aero India 2013 & 2015 shown below:

 

[Spectribution]

We got anything and everything from any other country because they wanted something in return,nothing is free in geopolitics.

Pakistan is a cheap whore,and it got treated like that because it was actively working against the US in Afghanistan,you cannot expect to call someone an ally and then kill their soldiers and conspiring with its enemies (China and CPEC),treating Pakistan like it deserves doesn't cast US as an ally in any negative light.It is the most reliable ally given its track record.

You work against your ally and you get what you deserve.

We have mutual agreement with the US about our Nuclear Program as long as our missiles are aimed at China.

What is wrong with trying to win a war,any country with the power would have done the same as US did.I don't care if you trust them or not,the fact that you blindly seem to trust Russians it does not come as a surprise.

Do quote me in the F-35 thread next time you post because I haven't seen you debunk any of my reasons which I gave for the IAF should go for the F-35 and the most recent posts in the F-35 thread are that of StealthFlanker who is quite adeptly advocating the F-35 and I haven't seen you reply to him either.

If we stay out of factions like we did in 1962 thanks to Nehru despite the Americans helping us, we will again be left with no one to help us when the Chinks try anything and get nothing from any side because I have explained to you how duplicity will leave us with no tech from either side.

You seem to be repeating the same stupid things again and again while ignoring their clear counters posted by me and other members in this thread.You still think Russia is a reliable ally despite it being the highest recipient of Chinese aid,You still think playing both sides is the right thing to do despite me explaining how that makes us all alone.

Address some of the peoples points instead of just repeating things.

Being an ally does not mean being anyones bitch.The liberals are gone for good from India and I don't see the liberal parties coming back for a long long time so stop with the liberal boogeyman.Those fools have no say when it comes to defense.

And yes being US ally means joining their interventions and frankly I don't see the problem with that.If countries like Poland,Estonia,Canada can commit resources and men to help America so can a country with a mighty military like ours.

And in return you can expect the US to go to war for you.

Now compare what the Soviets did for us in 71 to what the Americans did for us in 62.

Trailing and "deterring" a Naval group versus actually sending a naval group to help us and USAF actually fighting in the war by giving our soldiers supplies and directly antagonazing China.

Russia showed their teeth for us.
The Americans fought with us.

You are a liberal US shill. Your poor and jargon related knowledge of FGFA and F 35 shows you have no technical knowledge. Are you an engineer? Do you have any technical knowledge or are you one of those LARPers from scroll.in and firstpost.com dicking around here to recruit your 'apparatchik' quota.

Your StealthFlanker and other US shills have given no technical knowledge about F 35 regarding it's dogfighting capabilities and radar arrays. Copy pasting excerpts from F16.net as 'original' posts is bullshit.

Please read up:

F 35(A)

FOR - https://fightersweep.com/6305/can-the-f-35-dogfight/
http://elementsofpower.blogspot.in/2015/02/the-f-35-and-infamous-transonic.html

AGAINST - http://www.ausairpower.net/jsf.html
http://www.pogo.org/straus/issues/weapons/2017/nows-not-the-time-to-increase-funding-f35.html

Unlike 1962 we now have nukes and a shit ton of military and economic might. More than India needing USA, USA needs us if they wish to counter Chinese aggression. Nehru was a son of an Orangi Town whore who thought of himself as an agent of World Peace. Stop comparing his govt. to current situation.

We don't need to be USA's bitch. Having a give and take loose alliance is fine. No bloody treaties and agreements. Poland and others are small fish. We don't need anyone's shadow to protect us. Any country that declares war against us will face annihilation thanks to our massive manpower size, nuclear arsenal, naval might, economic might and huge forex reserves. USA has double crossed us multiple times. Let Trump kick out establishment from his government and then induct right winger nationalists in 2018. We will parlay for a loose alliance then.

Days of liberals on this earth are numbered. The next generation will call them a myth.

 

[Spectribution]

FGFA can be developed in India itself without Russian involvement in case we decide to formally pull out from the JV. The Project (Advanced Heavy Combat Aircraft AHCA) can be pursued as follows:
Airframe : ADA+ HAL
Avionics: DARE+BEL
RADAR : UTTAM AESA derivative
Engine : Kaveri derivative or indegeneous developement based on AL-31 which is made under TOT in HAL.
Also since FGFA is very different from PAK-FA and will incorporate the IAF ASQR we won't run into IP issues with Russians. it will help us save 6 billion $ R&D fund the Russians are asking and develop Indian aviation sector. A different team can handle the project than the one doing AMCA project. By this way we will recover some of the 295 million $ invested in preliminary R &D with Russian and we came up a early design concept showcased in Aero India 2013 & 2015 shown below:
View attachment 21132

HAL can't develop a prototype for full scale wind testing and avionics fitting and they will make AMCA. Please read up about technology limitations regarding 5th gen technology here:

https://scout.com/military/warrior/...hters-F-35-vs-China-J-31-Russia-PAK-101455783

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

HAL is the primary integrator of most of aircraft in IAF inventory. Besides HAL has its own R&D divisons. ADA +HAL is the best aircraft design agency in India.
Also HAL plans to manufacture FGFA in Nashik plant.

 

[gadeshi]

Can HAL complete the FGFA project on its own? that is can it develop the PMF FGFA fighter on its own without Russian assistance in case India formally decides to withdraw from the program?

No.
For several dosens of reasons in which Indians are totally incompetent at the moment and have no sources to learn from.

Отправлено с моего XT1080 через Tapatalk

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

Question was not about technical competency but about IP issues associated with PAK FA.
If HAL is technically incompetent then it is better to pour money on an indegeneous design like AMCA than a semi stealth fighter like PAK FA whose design phase is already over and production is to begin.
IAF has learnt from the history of SU-30Mki program and is wisely showing disinterest in Fgfa since this half baked product does not meet its stringent ASQR

 

[gadeshi]

Question was not about technical competency but about IP issues associated with PAK FA.
If HAL is technically incompetent then it is better to pour money on an indegeneous design like AMCA than a semi stealth fighter like PAK FA whose design phase is already over and production is to begin.
IAF has learnt from the history of SU-30Mki program and is wisely showing disinterest in Fgfa since this half baked product does not meet its stringent ASQR

Indians cannot do AMCA themselves as well.
For the same dosens of reasons.
Unless you want to create "some similar to G5" aircraft.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

Its better to start by investing in our own projects rather than Russian project which clearly has no takers in IAF. What Russia wants is a perpetual cash cow. Before India China was offered this project as JV and it wisely rejected it a decade ago. People like you said the same thing about Chinese aviation industry. Now 2 Chinese 5G birds are flying. We were short sighted and fell for the Russian charm and it led us to nowhere.Hence it is better to invest in AMCA than this half baked PAkFa from our perspective. It is one thing that you buy products of the shelf from a company but this Jv in the name of co development is nothing but trying to milk us huge cash.

 

[Scarface]

You are a liberal US shill. Your poor and jargon related knowledge of FGFA and F 35 shows you have no technical knowledge. Are you an engineer? Do you have any technical knowledge or are you one of those LARPers from scroll.in and firstpost.com dicking around here to recruit your 'apparatchik' quota.

Your StealthFlanker and other US shills have given no technical knowledge about F 35 regarding it's dogfighting capabilities and radar arrays. Copy pasting excerpts from F16.net as 'original' posts is bullshit.

Please read up:

F 35(A)

FOR - https://fightersweep.com/6305/can-the-f-35-dogfight/
http://elementsofpower.blogspot.in/2015/02/the-f-35-and-infamous-transonic.html

AGAINST - http://www.ausairpower.net/jsf.html
http://www.pogo.org/straus/issues/weapons/2017/nows-not-the-time-to-increase-funding-f35.html

Unlike 1962 we now have nukes and a shit ton of military and economic might. More than India needing USA, USA needs us if they wish to counter Chinese aggression. Nehru was a son of an Orangi Town whore who thought of himself as an agent of World Peace. Stop comparing his govt. to current situation.

We don't need to be USA's bitch. Having a give and take loose alliance is fine. No bloody treaties and agreements. Poland and others are small fish. We don't need anyone's shadow to protect us. Any country that declares war against us will face annihilation thanks to our massive manpower size, nuclear arsenal, naval might, economic might and huge forex reserves. USA has double crossed us multiple times. Let Trump kick out establishment from his government and then induct right winger nationalists in 2018. We will parlay for a loose alliance then.

Days of liberals on this earth are numbered. The next generation will call them a myth.

So you haven't read our posts , and you are using blogs and Carlo Kopp from APA as your sources , and are question mine and StealthFlankers credentials.Just goes to show how ill informed you are.

Carlo Kopp and AirPowerAustralia are laughed at in all defence circles and are not even considered a reliable source.

If you can refute us you are welcome to do so in the F-35 thread.If the best sources you have to provide is APA and blogs then you will probably be wasting everyones time.

Carlo Kopp is an expert who thinks US is willing to sell F-22 to Australia and Australia.
Next you will probably link us to Pierre Sprey as a souce on F-35

Do post these in F-35 thread and get laughed at,however as I have said many times and you seem to be projecting yourself on me , because it seems like you don't know how forums work,if you did you would know there is an F-35 thread and this is not the place to discuss F-35.

Ironic , the person calling me a firstpost/scroll commenter does not understand how the forum works.Stop Projecting yourself on others

The fact that you haven't refuted either one of us despite me openly telling you to do so shows that I have far more technical knowledge than you

As far as who needs who how much is concerned , are you so myopic that you cannot see Russians need the Chinks far more than us.

Nehru was indeed a fool and this Government isn't and hence they are doing a clear policy shift towards US as is evident by signing LSA.

No we don't have to be USAs bitch,but it seems you would have us stay Russia's bitch,buying their junk,continually getting duped by their promises of ToT for that junk.

Even though we don't need anyone to fight our battles for us , we could always use someone who will fight our battles with us,it would make it a lot easier for us to fight China in case of a war knowing that the USN has blockaded the PLAAN in SCS and it isn't going to cause trouble in the IOR.

What we can expect from Russia ? Neutrality at best.Tacit support to China at worst , because you made a point US needs us more than we need US and similiarly,the Russians need the Chinese more than us,because we cannot afford to give them economic aid and Chinese can.

Also it is impossible for USA to double cross us because until this government we weren't even close to US so how can they double cross someone who was not their ally.However MMS and Bush relations were also very nice considering the Nuclear Deal that the US did was a huge Pro India move.But since you seem to have no knowledge regarding geopolitcis or technicalities I do not expect you to understand the gravity of the N deal.

US-India relations always increase when there are right wing parties in power on both sides,so you should stop screaming about the liberal boogeyman.

USA=Liberals is your line of though and it shows how green you are in these geopolitics discussions.

And the only one acting as a shill is you.I gave valid reasons to not be allied with those treacherous Russians,I gave valid reasons not to play both sides,I gave valid reasons to ally with the US,Neither have you refuted any of my reasons nor have you given any reasons for your reasoning except

"Hurr dur US is the devil,responsible for everything that goes wrong"

Discussing with uninformed members like you is quite the waste of time but I try my best to inform.

 

[Steven Rogers]

No.
For several dosens of reasons in which Indians are totally incompetent at the moment and have no sources to learn from.

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Such as..................................

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[Armand2REP]

No.
For several dosens of reasons in which Indians are totally incompetent at the moment and have no sources to learn from.

Отправлено с моего XT1080 через Tapatalk

I am dying to know what those dozens of reasons are. They will have uprated engines from Safran and Thales AESA, the rest they can do by themselves. Russia isn't necessary for any of it.

 

[Steven Rogers]

I am dying to know what those dozens of reasons are. They will have uprated engines from Safran and Thales AESA, the rest they can do by themselves. Russia isn't necessary for any of it.

Even their is a local aesa radar development, Uprated variant is just for light fighters, France and India already showed intent of making a 125kn class engine derived from Kaveri and M88..

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[shuvo@y2k10]

Safran tie up is for kaveri engine only and it will enhance the thrust to 110 kn . For AMCA gtre has initiated development of 130 kn(wet)/90 km(dry) engine with multi axis thrust vector control which is unrelated to kaveri and will be of all 31 class and will also power su 30mki during its mid life upgradre. The weight of the engine is projected about 2 tons. This can also power fgfa (initial protypes) if hal decides to go alone and we pull out of the jv. Similar to kaveri it has scope of improvement of 10-15 % which will be in 150-160 Kn class thereby ready to power fgfa production models.
There is nothing special about the non stealthy airframe or under construction engine of pakfa despite what the Russian's wants up to beleive. China japan Korea India, any country which has previously designed a 4th gen fighter and can afford to invest can make the pakfa airframe. European countries have invested in f 35 and are short on cash otherwise you would see many of them flying fifth gen planes.
Question about radar and avionics is answered by our modular GaN aesa radar called Uttam and developments in AMCA avionics which will find its way into all IAF aircrafts.
Hence it is better to develop fgfa on our own and not depend on Russians. Most important point is PAK FA failed IAF ASQR requirements and the perennially import happy IAF is unhappy about it pushed down its throat. Today we have high performance supercomputer assisted design facilities in ada and RCS measurement facility and wind tunnels in NAL which has already tested 9 different versions of AMCA 3b1-3b9. In 2007 we didn't have that and hence we entered in jv with Russia which has led us to nowhere in a decade.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Safran tie up is for kaveri engine only and it will enhance the thrust to 110 kn . For AMCA gtre has initiated development of 130 kn(wet)/90 km(dry) engine with multi axis thrust vector control which is unrelated to kaveri and will be of all 31 class and will also power su 30mki during its mid life upgradre. The weight of the engine is projected about 2 tons. This can also power fgfa (initial protypes) if hal decides to go alone and we pull out of the jv. Similar to kaveri it has scope of improvement of 10-15 % which will be in 150-160 Kn class thereby ready to power fgfa production models.

Do you know that the future engine is based on current ground, building a new from scratch costs money more than time.... Hell don't, no Kaveri will replace Su30 as doing so will end up any support for our mkis from Russia. And Safran has tied up for 90+kn thrust. And Safran are front runners for the jv in future k10 engine.

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[singhboy98]

I do not want to get into the F-35 vs FGFA argument. The decision on that is almost final and will be revealed to the public in some time.

However, the Russians as a defense equipment supplier, leave a lot to be desired. The disinterest of the IAF in future Russian products is coming from some very bitter experiences. I am sure that IAF veterans and people with an ear for such things already know what I am talking about. Customer is usually king. Not so with the Russians. Very unreliable platforms too.

On the Americans, get one thing clear, despite all the hue and cry made over Americans being iron clad allies and all, they are most selfish SOBs in this planet. They won't hesitate a second before discarding you the moment your purpose is served. Trusting then with the future of our airforce is a very big gamble (the GoI thinks so).

The only option available to us is to go indigenous. This path is very difficult and there are some huge structural defeciencies which are stopping the government from taking some concrete steps along this path. Expect to have majority of these defeciencies ironed out soon.

There are some countries which can be leveraged using money and other things to advance the AMCA. That is already being done. Every one knows which countries I am referring too.

I would also advise members not to fall for any camp. Both have their pros and cons but the end result always is loss of Indian autonomy in some way or the other. You guys need to decide where you want to see India in the next 50-70 years. The same old pacifist state with no real power? Cause that is the only outcome of allying with any one camp. Becoming a concrete US ally just because of Chinese is very short sighted. We are already more than capable of handling the Chinese in our own. We need to build on that.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

Do you know that the future engine is based on current ground, building a new from scratch costs money more than time.... Hell don't, no Kaveri will replace Su30 as doing so will end up any support for our mkis from Russia. And Safran has tied up for 90+kn thrust. And Safran are front runners for the jv in future k10 engine.

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If you have time read the full doccument :

It clearly says 130KN engine project with multi axis TVC is initiated. It will be for AMCA as well as Sukhoi mid life upgrade. Also twitted by Mannu Pubby eminent journalist. All this is disscussed in Kaveri thread in DFI in 2016 itself. Go there and read those disscussion if you have any doubt. Also Kaveri smeca partnership is for 90-110 Kn class only not 130Kn class and hence it will power Tejas Mk2 and latter will power AMCA.

 

[Steven Rogers]

If you have time read the full doccument :

It clearly says 130KN engine project with multi axis TVC is initiated. It will be for AMCA as well as Sukhoi mid life upgrade. Also twitted by Mannu Pubby eminent journalist. All this is disscussed in Kaveri thread in DFI in 2016 itself. Go there and read those disscussion if you have any doubt. Also Kaveri smeca partnership is for 90-110 Kn class only not 130Kn class and hence it will power Tejas Mk2 and latter will power AMCA.

Pardon me but that parameters are designed for testing 130kN thrust class engines(remember HAL SARAS project that also requires 130kn class Hi bypass engine ) , that don't mean that GTRE is developing 130kN class engine with a whopping 2100kgees weight..... Kindly read that article, multi axis tvc is initiated with Kilmov is known to everyone(yes wiki ). Kindly give me the link of that, as far as I know I followed last 20, 30 pages of each highlighting threads.
Imagine more than 4tons of engines weight only on AMCA will be disastrous.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

@Steven Rogers
NAL Saras is a mere 4-5 ton aircraft. It 's prototype is powered by P&w turboprop engine 1200 hp class. Since you didn't read the document clearly let me post the specification of engine to tested (page 16 of the pdf):

Also for engine nozzle design and thrust vectoring technology GTRE is collaborating with IIT Bombay, Madras,Kanpur,IISC etc apart from Russian's where only a JV is signed with Klimov (no details of any work progress just like PAK-FA). This is the broad specification of the engine on which work is initiated. Keeping overweight issues of Kaveri in the past weight is on the higher side on the design stage itself to allow for room to manuver.
Disscusion on Kaveri engine in DFI : http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/kaveri-engine.5097/page-73
idrw article : http://idrw.org/how-90kn-kaveri-and-125kn-kaveri-engine-projects-will-be-game-changer-for-india/
Hence I suggest you to read and then comment. How on early did you get the idea of 130 Kn turbojet engine powering tiny NAL Saras?

 

[Spectribution]

So you haven't read our posts , and you are using blogs and Carlo Kopp from APA as your sources , and are question mine and StealthFlankers credentials.Just goes to show how ill informed you are.

Carlo Kopp and AirPowerAustralia are laughed at in all defence circles and are not even considered a reliable source.

If you can refute us you are welcome to do so in the F-35 thread.If the best sources you have to provide is APA and blogs then you will probably be wasting everyones time.

Carlo Kopp is an expert who thinks US is willing to sell F-22 to Australia and Australia.
Next you will probably link us to Pierre Sprey as a souce on F-35

Do post these in F-35 thread and get laughed at,however as I have said many times and you seem to be projecting yourself on me , because it seems like you don't know how forums work,if you did you would know there is an F-35 thread and this is not the place to discuss F-35.

Ironic , the person calling me a firstpost/scroll commenter does not understand how the forum works.Stop Projecting yourself on others

The fact that you haven't refuted either one of us despite me openly telling you to do so shows that I have far more technical knowledge than you

As far as who needs who how much is concerned , are you so myopic that you cannot see Russians need the Chinks far more than us.

Nehru was indeed a fool and this Government isn't and hence they are doing a clear policy shift towards US as is evident by signing LSA.

No we don't have to be USAs bitch,but it seems you would have us stay Russia's bitch,buying their junk,continually getting duped by their promises of ToT for that junk.

Even though we don't need anyone to fight our battles for us , we could always use someone who will fight our battles with us,it would make it a lot easier for us to fight China in case of a war knowing that the USN has blockaded the PLAAN in SCS and it isn't going to cause trouble in the IOR.

What we can expect from Russia ? Neutrality at best.Tacit support to China at worst , because you made a point US needs us more than we need US and similiarly,the Russians need the Chinese more than us,because we cannot afford to give them economic aid and Chinese can.

Also it is impossible for USA to double cross us because until this government we weren't even close to US so how can they double cross someone who was not their ally.However MMS and Bush relations were also very nice considering the Nuclear Deal that the US did was a huge Pro India move.But since you seem to have no knowledge regarding geopolitcis or technicalities I do not expect you to understand the gravity of the N deal.

US-India relations always increase when there are right wing parties in power on both sides,so you should stop screaming about the liberal boogeyman.

USA=Liberals is your line of though and it shows how green you are in these geopolitics discussions.

And the only one acting as a shill is you.I gave valid reasons to not be allied with those treacherous Russians,I gave valid reasons not to play both sides,I gave valid reasons to ally with the US,Neither have you refuted any of my reasons nor have you given any reasons for your reasoning except

"Hurr dur US is the devil,responsible for everything that goes wrong"

Discussing with uninformed members like you is quite the waste of time but I try my best to inform.

Again do you have a technical background or education to make calls on core technology components? I do, so stop embarrassing yourself like a script kiddie and do some research. Kopp's APA documents called for hearing in Australia's parliament. Nearly everything he predicted has been proven as true. You and your wannabe playmates couldn't even tell how angular symmetry correlates to L band detection in a set region varies with altitude.

http://www.dote.osd.mil/pub/reports/FY2012/pdf/dod/2012f35jsf.pdf
www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Committees/...Affairs.../~/.../e02.pdf

Your rant about F 35 shows you have no idea about timeline. Back in 2008 when report surfaced US F 22 program manufactured jets. This was a lobbying attempt to get a mature solution than a half baked immature platform. Then production stopped in 2012 so debate is now on price negotiation.

US influence inevitably ends up erasing indigenous cultural heritage of the ally nation and neuters them to a vassal status. E.g: Baseball popularity in Japan, S. Korea, K Pop, Anime,etc. India must swim away from this shark so that we can become a global power in 2025-ish without US support and reliance. They have managed to infiltrate the SC through that snake D.Y.Chandrachud.

US shills have started popping up in this forum recently to sway public opinion towards globalist establish and subjugate us through soft power. US will always be treated like an outsider so let your liberal friends know about this and burn on the inside.

With HAL backing and GoI leaning towards FGFA IAF dalals will have blue balls this government. Stick with your
congi Pappu in the hopes this 'rebranding' exercise may make us pity vote for him!