Sukhoi PAK FA

[gadeshi]

care to explain on what level i am wrong ???? so far MKI still suffer from low availability and mig 29k are jokes their availability as low as 25% a mig 29k and su 33 also crashed within a week aboard kuznetsov also


heard this from PARIKRAMA

Hearing from different circles..
Rafale exciting news will be out soon..

Both for Make In India and a bigger surprise of Rafale M order from Merignac. And it's quite a big size number !!!

India has chosen the upgraded engine Rafale which is going to meet multiple requirements including deck ops at 14 degree ski jump.

The upgraded engine will curtail the limitation of MTOW which is present in M88-4E for marine version operating from STOBAR carriers. The other competitor to this SH but it's not considered by IN owing to even less compatibility for STOBAR ops.

Oh btw IAF need is now 400jets and IN need for deck ops is 80 and shore based is another 60+. And single engine requirement is again going super slow..

And most importantly the IAF and IN fighter must also be MII fighter and a substantial benefit in TOT in terms of manufacturing and repair & overhaul ecosystem.

Since navy won't chose single engine as of now, the chances dimmed for the other so called single engine need of IAF based MII.

Enjoy the Christmas and happy new year in advance.. good work is done behind by DA, France and India.

Go and read something serious (abd it's not Pedivikia), son.
Your posts are like typical "I've read and know nothing but I have the right for my own oppinion coz my dad says I'm clever".

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[OnePunchMan]

I won't spend my breath arguing low-minded schoolboy, so no shitstorm will happen.

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pity you think that way but i dont think PAK-FA programme has anything worth offering and is hardly a fifth gen to be honest russia has zero experience in stealth aircraft design it still using old engines with new engine to be designed in a distant future avionics wise india already has upper hand then that leaves us with what?

 

[Filtercoffee]

pity you think that way but i dont think PAK-FA programme has anything worth offering and is hardly a fifth gen to be honest russia has zero experience in stealth aircraft design it still using old engines with new engine to be designed in a distant future avionics wise india already has upper hand then that leaves us with what?

Sir, I think this is wrong to judge an airframe without even seeing it in flight and/or knowing the actuals. Please refrain from sending out such messages which are highly idiotic. With refrain from governments only mean they are a little ahead on such technical and deep evaluation processes.

 

[gadeshi]

pity you think that way but i dont think PAK-FA programme has anything worth offering and is hardly a fifth gen to be honest russia has zero experience in stealth aircraft design it still using old engines with new engine to be designed in a distant future avionics wise india already has upper hand then that leaves us with what?

You should read more and write less, will look like wise one (c) From Bible
Start reading this thread and Rafale one.
All your "thoughts" are already there and proper discussed.

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[OnePunchMan]

Go and read something serious (abd it's not Pedivikia), son.
Your posts are like typical "I've read and know nothing but I have the right for my own oppinion coz my dad says I'm clever".

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well regardless of what you think i am approaching the topic what it is not what it should be if indian navy is thinking of replacing all mig 29k with rafale i will trust their decision more than anyone here also MKI do suffer from low availability rate because it was covered in detail by indians auditor board CAG russia's airforce itself is in shambles because of low availability of jets its a world known fact thats why they rely so heavily on air defence and SAMS because air force is costly to maintain PAK-FA is not even ready yet just few prototypes and still has rivets all over it thats hardly stealthy i think im pretty right in my assessment.

 

[OnePunchMan]

Sir, I think this is wrong to judge an airframe without even seeing it in flight and/or knowing the actuals. Please refrain from sending out such messages which are highly idiotic. With refrain from governments only mean they are a little ahead on such technical and deep evaluation processes.

okay but indian air force has seen it and they themselves rejected it their 3 objections were

(a) The Russians are reluctant to share critical design information with India;
(b) The fighter's current AL-41F1 engines are inadequate, being mere upgrades of the Sukhoi-30MKI's AL-31 engines; and
(c) It is too expensive for the value and no real benefit in terms of technology

its the words of air force experts not mine

after that russia promised to let the indian air force try the jets so far ZILCH NADA has happened because there has been no improvements and platform is still struggling AND DECADE FROM BEING READY i mean for crying out loud RUSSIA IS BUYING ONLY 12 PAKFA IF ITS SUCH A GREAT JET THAN WHY ARE THEY BUYING SUCH A ABYSMAL TOKEN NUMBER.

 

[OnePunchMan]

You should read more and write less, will look like wise one (c) From Bible
Start reading this thread and Rafale one.
All your "thoughts" are already there and proper discussed.

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My friend i have done that besides ive got better source to know whats cooking in the policy of indian armed forces and they are actively trying to phase out the russian jets and their reasoning and arguments are pretty sound and seems reasonable to me its upto you to accept that but i can challenge you russia is a decade before inducting the PAK FA in its own airforce at a proper squadron level its engine wont be ready before 2020 till then its all half baked prototypes.

 

[Filtercoffee]

okay but indian air force has seen it and they themselves rejected it their 3 objections were

(a) The Russians are reluctant to share critical design information with India;
(b) The fighter's current AL-41F1 engines are inadequate, being mere upgrades of the Sukhoi-30MKI's AL-31 engines; and
(c) It is too expensive for the value and no real benefit in terms of technology

its the words of air force experts not mine

after that russia promised to let the indian air force try the jets so far ZILCH NADA has happened because there has been no improvements and platform is still struggling AND DECADE FROM BEING READY i mean for crying out loud RUSSIA IS BUYING ONLY 12 PAKFA IF ITS SUCH A GREAT JET THAN WHY ARE THEY BUYING SUCH A ABYSMAL TOKEN NUMBER.

Great knowing the problem of the Air Force. Are you trying to say you were following this programme from inceptions and deals?

 

[OnePunchMan]

Great knowing the problem of the Air Force. Are you trying to say you were following this programme from inceptions and deals?

No but started from when india decided to show interest in it around 2010 or when russia lured us into it as the next best thing on the market russia always markets its half baked products as cutting edge but reality is far far humbling
do you know what manohar parrikar just said about SU-30 MKI that there hardly was any technological benefit or TOT in the 272 jets deal you can look it up yourslef.

 

[Filtercoffee]

No but started from when india decided to show interest in it around 2010 or when russia lured us into it as the next best thing on the market russia always markets its half baked products as cutting edge but reality is far far humbling
do you know what manohar parrikar just said about SU-30 MKI that there hardly was any technological benefit or TOT in the 272 jets deal you can look it up yourslef.

Sir after the inputs what would be ideal then according to the vast data base and after analysis?

 

[Cutting Edge]

There is a brewing Pak-China-Russia nexus. Paki jornos are taking about their secret Russin friendship for about a year now. After Putin's support for taliban in Afghanistan and this new support for CPEC, I don't think India will risk future of their Air Force in untrustworthy russian hands who can very well repeat Admiral Gorshkov debacle. Modi and Doval aren't idiots, mark my words FGFA program is dead. AMCA or F35 or both are going to be india's 5th gen fighters.

 

[Filtercoffee]

There is a brewing Pak-China-Russia nexus. Paki jornos are taking about their secret Russin friendship for about a year now. After Putin's support for taliban in Afghanistan and this new support for CPEC, I don't think India will risk future of their Air Force in untrustworthy russian hands who can very well repeat Admiral Gorshkov debacle. Modi and Doval aren't idiots, mark my words FGFA program is dead. AMCA or F35 or both are going to be india's 5th gen fighters.

Sir, legacy fighter airframes were incepted before the PM and the NSA came into office. Your point is off topic.

 

[kstriya]

There is a brewing Pak-China-Russia nexus. Paki jornos are taking about their secret Russin friendship for about a year now. After Putin's support for taliban in Afghanistan and this new support for CPEC, I don't think India will risk future of their Air Force in untrustworthy russian hands who can very well repeat Admiral Gorshkov debacle. Modi and Doval aren't idiots, mark my words FGFA program is dead. AMCA or F35 or both are going to be india's 5th gen fighters.

I don't like this but if Russians do not come clean on their engagements with Porkistan then we might not see PAK FA in the IAF. Our relationship with US is transactional and different from Russian relationship with Porkistan as US and Russia do not share common border. If Russians cannot understand our sensitivities then thay can say good bye to billions of dollars from India into their nuclear and military industry.

 

[OnePunchMan]

Sir after the inputs what would be ideal then according to the vast data base and after analysis?

ideal course would be to stop FGFA or PAK FA purchase only focus on one 5th generation as that is only thing feasible partner with dassault and france for AMCA as they are also looking for a 5th gen platform share the cost with them but the rafale to fill the shortfall in number also partner with dassault to modify and make a LCA mk2 or LCA stealth as part of the offsets of the deal i can assure you the LCA will fly with kaveri engine when the MK1A is ready the help in kaveri project is the master stroke by french to completely freeze the US out of any deal SH is dead and there is hardly any progress on f-16 since americans insisted on buying 200 fighters for any chance of TOT on engine which was shaky at best so we need to retire all legacy migs and cancel PAKFA and go straight for AMCA and buy rafale to fill the gap and upgrade su 30 when the production line closes we need to stop having so many types of aircraft in our inventory and streamline our air forces and reduce cost do you know how expensive is it to maintain such a clusterfuck of different platforms?

 

[kstriya]

I don't like this but if Russians do not come clean on their engagements with Porkistan then we might not see PAK FA in the IAF. Our relationship with US is transactional and different from Russian relationship with Porkistan as US and Russia do not share common border. If Russians cannot understand our sensitivities then thay can say good bye to billions of dollars from India into their nuclear and military industry.

@gadeshi, (Off topic )Russians will not get anything out of their investment in the shit hole called Porkistan and the Chinese will back stab them sooner or later its in their DNA. We will see a war on the Russian Chinese border in near future and the impact on Chinese copies of Russian armament will be substantial to stop few industries in Russia which will lose large export orders. The new love for Taliban to defeat ISIS is a Chimera, you cannot play with snake and expect it to bite the neighbor only. Islam is the real snake which has plagued the entire globe. I believed Putin was blunt and realistic while dealing with Islamic mess but some thing is wrong now.

 

[Adioz]

I won't spend my breath arguing low-minded schoolboy, so no shitstorm will happen.

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You did not partake in this useless discussion, but the sh** storm happend anyway.

There is a brewing Pak-China-Russia nexus. Paki jornos are taking about their secret Russin friendship for about a year now. After Putin's support for taliban in Afghanistan and this new support for CPEC, I don't think India will risk future of their Air Force in untrustworthy russian hands who can very well repeat Admiral Gorshkov debacle. Modi and Doval aren't idiots, mark my words FGFA program is dead. AMCA or F35 or both are going to be india's 5th gen fighters.

Welcome to DFI. Plz introduce yourself in the member's section.

As far as Russia's recent overtures to Pakistan are concerned, its nothing unexpected. Its a knee-jerk reaction in response to the recent military overtures India has made towards Washington. This has made Russians nervous as Washington has been bagging a lot of contracts for equipment. This will settle once we reach a new equilibrium (Will happen soon as Trump is POTUS and wants better relations with Russians). Putin is not so stupid that he will risk letting India go and befriend Porki-shit-stan. He is just making diplomatic warnings to India.

Now, this thread is about PAK FA so plz stop derailing it and post this in Indo-Russian relations thread.

I don't like this but if Russians do not come clean on their engagements with Porkistan then we might not see PAK FA in the IAF. Our relationship with US is transactional and different from Russian relationship with Porkistan as US and Russia do not share common border. If Russians cannot understand our sensitivities then thay can say good bye to billions of dollars from India into their nuclear and military industry.

 

[Filtercoffee]

SH has LCA engines. FGFA is joint deal with HAL. F16 has Russian head aches after shooting down su 24. Why would you want this to happen if you know the course is set?@cuttingedge@onepunchman.

 

[Cutting Edge]

I don't like this but if Russians do not come clean on their engagements with Porkistan then we might not see PAK FA in the IAF. Our relationship with US is transactional and different from Russian relationship with Porkistan as US and Russia do not share common border. If Russians cannot understand our sensitivities then thay can say good bye to billions of dollars from India into their nuclear and military industry.

Exactly and I may add that our defence relation with US is purly China centric, there is no threat to Russia from US India relations. However Russian support of Taliban and Pakistan directly affects India.

Also there is no clarity about Russia's capacity to build 5th gen fighter. PakFa's stealth is questionable and they don't even have modern engines yet. On top of that Russin themselves aren't going to induct PakFa more than token amount of one or two squads. They will take $4 billion or whatever we commit and than they will ask for billions more again and again. It is an age old Russian tactic.

But even if they deliver on time the most important strategic question is will Russia support India and deliver spares and support in case of war with China? because afterall our 5th gen fighters will be China centric. The answer based on current Russian policy is a big NO!

 

[Cutting Edge]

You did not partake in this useless discussion, but the sh** storm happend anyway.


Welcome to DFI. Plz introduce yourself in the member's section.

As far as Russia's recent overtures to Pakistan are concerned, its nothing unexpected. Its a knee-jerk reaction in response to the recent military overtures India has made towards Washington. This has made Russians nervous as Washington has been bagging a lot of contracts for equipment. This will settle once we reach a new equilibrium (Will happen soon as Trump is POTUS and wants better relations with Russians). Putin is not so stupid that he will risk letting India go and befriend Porki-shit-stan. He is just making diplomatic warnings to India.

Now, this thread is about PAK FA so plz stop derailing it and post this in Indo-Russian relations thread.

Okay got it but I am new here so sorry.

 

[Chinmoy]

i think india should pull out of the PAKFA programme let go of the initial investment and cut its losses the programme is all smoke and mirrors just a SU-27 albeit a flattened one russia does not have any tech to build 5th gen fighter india should retire all mig -21 and mig-27 buy the used mirages 2000 in the market as UAE is already looking to buy rafale that way we deny the pakistan any chance of ever getting those mirages either and instead work with france to creat e LCA mk2 stealth with offsets from rafale and also work with dassault on 5th fighter as france is also looking to build one and partner them on Neuron project it could help AURA russia does not have any tech worth offering except maybe engine but they are still developing PAK fa engine and our computer tech and mission computer was already superior as we integrated the avionics of MKI ourselves and have a good grasp on this also the mirage upgrade was aimed at improving this aspect i think cut alll funding and resources from PAK FA and full on partner with france for any future development project we can give the project to upgrade MKI to russians to keep them satisfied we can integrate most of the new tech radar and jammers used on PAKFA on MKI wont make much difference as PAKFA is not very stealthy to begin with.

First thing.............. Use punctuation. Seems you forgot to do so and all have gone gibberish like the very idea.

Now coming to point, why we do need PAK-FA or FGFA in our case.

Russia might not have presented a sleek F-22 or F-35 sort of design. But PAK-FA in itself is technologically superior to any of its counter part in our arsenal. Agreed that there has been issues in between India and Russia regarding the work share in designing. But it has been tried many a times to iron out these issues. If some one says that India has been interested in PAK-FA, then it is just plain lie. India from first has always been interested in FGFA programme rather then PAK-FA. PAK-FA has always been a Russian child and India only invested in it to pick out nits and kits of structure designing. India never said that they were interested in Russian avionics and neither can India work on with Russian avionics. Avionics and others wold always be Indian, but it was the structure which had drawn India towards it.
Now coming on to French collaboration. Do you seriously think India is going to get any sort of help from French in this regard? Lets keep each and every one out of it and just keep ourself in place of Russia or France or lets say USA. Do you think we would have been straight forward or open to sharing the knowledge with anyone? No country is going to help you out in your venture for advance tech. You got to acquire them yourself or simply purchase it off the self. Tejas is one good example for that. Moreover France has yet to come up with any design, leave alone working on it as of now. With NATO on their side, few years down the line don't be surprise to see F-35 or may be F-22 flying in France color.
When you talk about Su-30, it has been conceived in 1990. Where was our aviation sector at that time? We have been busy with license production of Migs and maintenance of Mirage. As far as ToT is concerned, ofcourse there is no ToT to share with. Russia did provided with rights to license build the airframe of the fighter, avionics you have customized as per your need. What left is the engine. Now no one in world is going to help you out with engine tech. What ToT are you talking of over here? If there was zero ToT, then do you think India would have been able to design a MKI from scratch?
Rather then pulling the plug from PAK-FA what we need is infact careful investment in its development. There is always something to learn from one development or another. Now its upto you how much involvement you could derive out from the venture. You might have heard, "A bird in hand worth more then two in bush".