Sukhoi PAK FA

LETHALFORCE

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The Saturn 117S will be the engine in the prototype Su-50 PAK FA until the AL-41F turbofan (PW F119-type) comes into operational service. Both engines will have supercruise capability.
 

LETHALFORCE

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Integrator of the engine 2 nd stage for the fighter 5-th generation (PAK FA) will be "Joint engine manufacturing corporation

MOSCOW, March 2. (ITAR-TASS). Integrator of the engine 2 nd stage for the fighter 5-th generation (PAK FA) will be "Joint engine manufacturing corporation," said the head of the corporation "Sukhoi" Mikhail Pogosyan.

According to him, most likely, an integrator of the engine 2 nd stage for a promising set of front-line aircraft engine manufacturing will be a Joint Corporation, which merged with the Salyut. "Already defined the contours of the engine 2 nd stage, but we must realize that its cycle of creation 10-12 years, "- said Pogosyan. He ruled out the possibility of engine 2-th stage in the coming years." Similarly, do not appear by 2015 ", - stressed the head of the corporation.

Pogosyan said that for the PAK FA "Try not critical to the start of the tests with the engine 1-th stage. "The plane took off with a new engine, which was designed specifically for this aircraft," - he said, stressing that "this modern design, which allows to operate the aircraft for a long time. According to him, the exploitation of PAK-FA "in the Armed Forces of our country with the engine 1-th stage.

As for the next engine, said Pogosyan, "the time of its implementation should be clarified." "We need to clarify the scope of work and sources of funding - he stated. - The challenge this is. Determine during 2010 - maximum 2011.
 

Armand2REP

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10-12 years to create the new engines... can't say I didn't tell you so.
 

pankaj nema

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Hey Mr Armand . Here you go again.The thing is that PAK FA is DEFINITELY turning out to be real "top gun" .
It will match and who knows even better F22 .

India will move from 4+ gen ie SU 30 , MMRCA, to the 5 th gen in a span of just 8 years .
Now India will be one of the few countries by 2017 -2018 to fly a 5 th gen. plane

YOU have been abusing RUSSIANS for the last several months . But Russia and India will have the last laugh.
 

Armand2REP

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Hey Mr Armand . Here you go again.The thing is that PAK FA is DEFINITELY turning out to be real "top gun" .
It will match and who knows even better F22 .

India will move from 4+ gen ie SU 30 , MMRCA, to the 5 th gen in a span of just 8 years .
Now India will be one of the few countries by 2017 -2018 to fly a 5 th gen. plane

YOU have been abusing RUSSIANS for the last several months . But Russia and India will have the last laugh.
One thing is for certain, PAK FA will not have a low IR signature. The .5m^2 RCS isn't a VLO signature either. It should have a similar supercruise to an Su-35BM which is Mach 1.2. Depending on how good the radar turns out, this barely beats the development fighters coming out of Europe.
 

notinlove

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One thing is for certain, PAK FA will not have a low IR signature.
The russians have been shouting their lungs off about this, but you would never believe would you.
The .5m^2 RCS isn't a VLO signature either.
My god!!!!!!!!!!
It should have a similar supercruise to an Su-35BM which is Mach 1.2.
more swept back wings, lower weight , higher thrust engines,internal weapons bay = greater supercruise speed.
Depending on how good the radar turns out, this barely beats the development fighters coming out of Europe.
Lol good one , i laughed :D
 

Armand2REP

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The russians have been shouting their lungs off about this, but you would never believe would you.
Not running on item 117S.

My god!!!!!!!!!!
Mon dieu!!!!!!

more swept back wings, lower weight , higher thrust engines,internal weapons bay = greater supercruise speed.
The figure was for a clean configuration. The engines are the exact same... 117S. It will have similar cruise speed, especially when it is carrying weapons.

Lol good one , i laughed :D
Glad you are having a cheeky mood. :)
 

notinlove

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Engines are not 117S , they are 117 150 kn thrust as compared to 145 kn

the IR reduction has been attributed to some engine sleeve sort of system , so it can be integrated i suppose but nothing can be said for sure , can be integrated on current engine or can't be but they have been saying it for sure.

Weight and aspect ratio do play a part in supercruise speed you know.

No more time for anything else, so i leave it here.
 

Armand2REP

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Engines are not 117S , they are 117 150 kn thrust as compared to 145 kn
They are item 117S, look it up.

the IR reduction has been attributed to some engine sleeve sort of system , so it can be integrated i suppose but nothing can be said for sure , can be integrated on current engine or can't be but they have been saying it for sure.
There is no operational engine sleeve except in your mind.

Weight and aspect ratio do play a part in supercruise speed you know.
Carrying an internal payload will increase its weight beyond a clean Su-35BM which has exhibited 1.2 without afterburner. Figure it out...
 

tony4562

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who manufactures those LCD panels for PAK-FA, taiwan or south korea?
 

LETHALFORCE

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The saturn engine is just for the 3 prototypes that have been developed it is not the real engine that will be in PAKFA, AL-41 will be the main engine.
 

Armand2REP

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The saturn engine is just for the 3 prototypes that have been developed it is not the real engine that will be in PAKFA, AL-41 will be the main engine.
If Salyut is the lead integrator, AL-41 is dead. The engine that will go on serial produced PAK FA 2015 will be item 117S. They can't wait until 2022 to start production.
 

LETHALFORCE

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AL-41 program started in 1985 a prototype flew 5 years later the engine is more or less complete, Integrator may just be manufacturing it ;they are not designing it from scratch. The plane will be delivered on time.
 

Anshu Attri

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http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/03/vanishing_american_air_superio.html

Vanishing American Air Superiority

The debate over the F-22 Raptor has been carried out at the customary level of simplemindedness we've become used to when Congress handles military questions. Since the early '60s, the favored method of killing a military program has been to come up with an argument easily expressed in a sound bite and stick with it. This time, the sound bite was, "Why do we need two fighter planes, anyway?"

The answer is even simpler: We need two fighters because need two fighters. The historical record clearly reveals this: Every air campaign carried out with two distinct and particularly formulated fighter designs has been a success, and every attempt to do otherwise has resulted in disaster.

U.S. Air Force doctrine on fighter procurement is known as the high/low mix. The "high" component consists of a dedicated air-superiority fighter, utilizing the latest aeronautical technology, fitted with state-of the-art electronics, and carrying the most advanced air-to-air weapons. These aircraft have one mission -- to kill enemy airplanes. This is the paramount goal of a fighter force. Without it, nothing else can be accomplished. That being the case, the high-end fighter is the more expensive and complex part of the mix. They are rare assets, to be utilized accordingly.

The "low" end is encompassed by the swing-role fighter, more commonly known as the fighter-bomber. Though designed and built with slightly less technical sophistication than the air-superiority models, these aircraft fill a much wider role. They carry out interdiction missions using bombs and rockets, provide ground-support for troops, and at the same time can acquit themselves adequately in the air-to-air role if enemy fighters show up. As such, they can supplement and reinforce the air-superiority aircraft if massive air battles develop. The swing-role fighter is cheaper and more easily and quickly constructed than its haughtier brother, so there tend to be larger numbers of them.

The high-low mix was pioneered during WWII. Both the British and the U.S. stumbled onto the concept without quite realizing what they were doing. In the years before the war's outbreak, the British embarked on a crash program to build eight-gun fighters for the defense of the home islands. The premier model was the Supermarine Spitfire, one of the legendary combat aircraft of the 20th century. But the Spitfire was supplemented by the lesser-known but still capable Hawker Hurricane. The Hurricane could take on the primary German fighter, the Messerschmidt Bf -109, only with difficulty, so an ad hoc strategy developed during the Battle of Britain (August 12-September 15, 1940) in which Spitfires attacked the fighter escorts while the Hurricanes hit the slower bombers. This strategy worked well enough to force the Luftwaffe to abandon daylight raids in September 1940, denying Hermann Goering the appellation of "Tamer of Britain."

As the war went on and Spitfires appeared in more substantial numbers, the Hurricane took on the fighter-bomber role. A dedicated ground-attack version, the Hurribomber, with increased bomb load and heavy wing cannon, began operating against Rommel's Afrika Korps in 1942. Hurribombers served throughout the war North Africa, Italy, and Burma.

The U.S. backed into the high-low mix out of desperation. The frontline fighter in 1943 was the Republic P-47, an excellent aircraft with one major drawback: Its combat radius was limited to 300 miles. That meant that it could not escort bombers to Germany and back, leaving the 8th Air Force's B-17s and B-24s at the mercy of German defenses. By sheer accident, a failing attack plane, the A-35, was mated with the British Merlin engine (the same as used by the Spitfire). The result was a magical airplane -- the P-51 Mustang, a fighter capable of flying deep into Germany and back while at the same time agile enough to outfly most opponents.

As the P-51 arrived in large numbers in the U.K. in early 1944, the P-47 was shifted to the fighter-bomber role. Fitted with wing racks for rockets and bombs, the P-47 flew constant escort over Allied tank spearheads as they moved across northwest Europe into the Reich, demolishing organized armored and artillery resistance. At the same time, the Jug, as the pilots called it, could more than hold its own against enemy fighters. Whenever some sorry remnant of the Luftwaffe attacked P-47 wings (as in Operation Bodenplatte, the Luftwaffe's January 1, 1945 last stand), they often got the worst of it.

Following the war, the high-low mix was carried on into the jet age. At the outbreak of the Korean War, a superb air-superiority aircraft, the F-86 Sabre, was entering service, while two first-generation fighter jets, the F-80 Shooting Star and the F-84 Thunderjet, covered the fighter-bomber role. As the war settled into an uneasy stalemate in 1951, USAF F-86s established a barcap (barrier combat air patrol) along the Yalu River to prevent communist MiG-15s flown variously by Soviet, Chinese, and North Korean pilots from attacking U.N. forces. Not a single successful incursion was made by communist air forces during the war. In the meantime, F-80s and F-84s continually harassed North Korean and Chinese forces.

The high-low mix proved itself in both WWII and Korea. But it was abandoned during the era of specialization, the 1950s. The "century series" fighters were, excepting the F-100 Super Sabre, the pioneer supersonic fighter. The model was quickly superseded by more advanced aircraft, designed for certain specific, limited roles, with no attempt to cover either the air-superiority or fighter-bomber mission. The F-101B, the F-102, and the F-106 were high-speed interceptors, the F-105 a "fighter-bomber" designed to drop nuclear weapons, the F-104 an indescribable and dangerous oddity.

Coming into the '60s without a fighter to carry out its basic missions, the USAF was forced to purchase the F-4 Phantom II, developed on behalf of the enemy service, the U.S. Navy. While an excellent aircraft, the F-4 was in many ways the apotheosis of the fighter-bomber, too heavy and lacking the agility to fill the air-superiority role. This was discovered immediately over Vietnam, where American aircraft were hard put to match Soviet-supplied MiGs during the early years of the war. It required a suite of improved air-to-air weapons and a complete overhaul of tactics before U.S. air forces could dominate the skies in their accustomed manner.

Much of those novel tactics were the work of Major John Boyd, a vastly talented and wildly eccentric fighter pilot who in later years was to trigger a revolution in military strategy. During the mid-'60s, he was in charge of developing the USAF's new tactical fighter. This effort followed a fiasco involving the General Dynamics F-111, which might be called liberalism's attempt to build a combat aircraft. Though intended as a fighter, the production F-111 was a monster aircraft the size of a medium airliner, and just about as maneuverable. Though the F-111 eventually found its role as a precision bomber, a large hole remained where the USAF's future fighter aircraft was supposed to be. Boyd's job was to fill that hole.

At first, it appeared that Boyd would be presiding over F-111: The Sequel. General Dynamics sent him a proposal for a plane weighing no less than 60,000 lbs. Boyd sent it back outlining exactly what he expected: half the weight, powered by engines that hadn't even reached the test stage yet, and with electronics and weapons systems that nobody could quite comprehend. It was a sure formula for failure in other hands, but everything broke the Mad Major's way, with advanced engines and avionics becoming available at just the right moment. The result was the F-15 Eagle.

But Boyd was not quite satisfied. He was perfectly aware of the benefits of the high-low mix, and on his own, without permission from anyone, began development of the necessary "low"-end aircraft. Working out the design parameters to match a series of "Energy Maneuverability" curves he had formulated (in large part from reinterpreting the aircraft as a thermodynamic system), Boyd coaxed several aircraft companies to produce prototypes to compete in a flyoff. Unusually, both prototypes were successful. One became the Navy's standard fighter, the F/A-18 Hornet. The other became the F-16 Falcon (though most pilots call it the "Viper").

Together, the F-15 and F-16 stand as the most effective fighter team on record. The F-15 compiled a kill ratio of 105 kills to zero losses. While the F-16's record was only half that, it more than effectively filled the swing role as the primary high-speed attack aircraft in theaters including Serbia and Iraq. Neither aircraft ever suffered a loss in air-to-air combat.

It would appear that the high-low thesis is as well established as any military concept ever gets. All the same, we're in the process of dumping it in pursuit of false economy. To the battle cry of "who needs two fighters anyway!" the U.S. is dropping the high end of the equation -- the F-22 Raptor -- in the mistaken conviction that the low end -- the F-35 Lightning II -- can cover all the bases.

The F-22 is the most effective air-superiority weapon ever devised -- the sole current operational example of the fifth-generation fighter. With its full stealth, supersonic cruise capability, and electronics that make the Starship Enterprise look like a birchbark canoe, it is utterly unmatched as a fighter aircraft. Its kill/loss ratio is estimated at 100 to 1 and is probably much higher.

The F-35 is a good little airplane, well-fitted for the swing role. It possesses partial stealthing ("forward stealthing," which prevents an enemy from knowing it's coming), performance matching most operational fighters, and a good electronics suite. It has several minor failings -- among them limited a internal weapons carriage, rendering underwing carriage necessary (thus negating most of its stealth advantages), along with an inability to fire its air-to-air weapons at maximum speed. All the same, when matched against current fighter designs, it would probably come out on top.

But the problem is that the F-35 will not be facing current designs. Technical superiority in all fields -- and in the military more than any other -- is the most ephemeral of assets. Even as the F-22 debate winds down, Sukhoi, Russia's premier aircraft company, is preparing to produce its own fifth-generation fighter, the PAK-FA. Fast, stealthy, and with state-of-the-art electronics, the PAK-FA is known as the "Raptor killer." It will probably have even better luck with the F-35. As for China, persistent rumors have been circulating concerning tests of a new fifth-generation fighter. (Interestingly, the Chinese have adapted the high-low mix for their own fighter force even as the U.S. seems about to abandon it.)

In a fifth-generation fighter environment, current tactics utilizing long-range detection by AWACS planes, which then hand off interception to individual fighters, will no longer be feasible. You can't play that game with stealth aircraft. We will instead return to the tactics of WWII and Korea, where opposing aircraft elements hunted each other across the wide blue sky and whoever had the best eyesight struck first. In that tactical environment, piloting skill and numbers will make all the difference.

Production of the F-22 has been capped at 187. That's it as of next September, and there won't be any more. Furthermore, rule of thumb has it that at least a third of all high-performance aircraft are at any given time laid up for maintenance or refitting, which leaves us with approximately 120 F-22s ready for action at any given time. The Russians and Chinese, on the other hand, have a slaphappy habit of making more weapons than they actually need. Suppose, if things get hot, our 120 planes are facing five hundred, a thousand, or even more fifth-generation enemy fighters? (China today fields roughly 2,000 fighter aircraft.) What happens then?

We know what happens then because we've been through it before. When WWII began in the Pacific, the Japanese possessed a world-class air-superiority fighter in the Mitsubishi A6M Zero. American forces attempted to challenge the Zero with a variety of low-end, often obsolete aircraft such as the F-4F Wildcat, the P-39 Airacobra, and the P-40 Warhawk. (And that says nothing the pathetic Brewster F-2A Buffalo, which didn't even belong in the same historical epoch as the Zero.) The result was a savage, year-long battering ended only by a complete revision of tactics. It wasn't until 1943 that a crash program involving direct flyoffs against a captured Zero resulted in the F-6F Hellcat, which outmatched the Zero in all factors and at last turned the tide in our favor.

Similarly, the Soviets, with the help of the British labor government that sold them the rights to the Rolls-Royce Nene engine and the Rosenberg spy ring who helpfully provided swept-wing wind tunnel data, made a dramatic technological leap in the late '40s with the MiG-15. Over Korea, USAF pilots were forced to contend with an enemy aircraft that was as fast as theirs and more maneuverable at altitude. Only superior U.S. training kept communist air forces at bay until, almost by accident, the new model F-86E Sabre, fitted with hydraulic controls, at last overcame the MiG advantage and handed air superiority to U.N. forces.

We'll be facing such a situation again, and sooner than we'd like. One of these days, over the Taiwan Straits or Central Asia, we will learn that eternal air superiority is not guaranteed to the United States as some kind of codicil to Manifest Destiny. American air forces will inevitably suffer a whipping unlike any they've endured in decades, and American troops and sailors will have to learn how to operate in conditions where we lack air superiority, something unheard of since 1943. (Heads up, Ralph Peters!)

One of the major failings of American politics involves its short-time horizon. American voters and politicians simply cannot grasp that actions taken today can have consequences years and decades down the line, and that, in a majority of cases, there will be no second chances. Barack Obama has proven to have far more limited foresight than even the average American pol. The F-22 cancellation is a clear example of this. There will be plenty more to come.
 

Armand2REP

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AL-41 program started in 1985 a prototype flew 5 years later the engine is more or less complete, Integrator may just be manufacturing it ;they are not designing it from scratch. The plane will be delivered on time.
The two competitors for phase 2 concept demonstrators are Saturn and Salyut. If Salyut wins, as suggested in your article, the engine will be AL-31FM3-1. Saturn with the AL-41F will be fini. The plane will be delievered with phase 1 engines if they want it on time, those being 117S. As per your own article, phase two is 10-12 years away and will not appear in 2015. The plane will be delievered in its current engine configuration.
 

Anshu Attri

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http://www.russiandefenseblog.org/?p=942

PAK-FA is flying with new engine already installed.

Russia’s fifth-generation stealth fighter jet will have a custom made new engine, Sukhoi General Director Mikhail Pogosyan said.

“Claims that the fifth-generation jet allegedly has an old engine are wrong. Such claims are made by people with limited knowledge,” he said.

The Saturn Research and Production center made digitally-controlled engines of Project 117 for the new jet. The engine thrust was enlarged by 2.5 tonnes, as compared with the AL-31 engines, while the engine weight was cut by 150 kilograms. That allowed the new jet to move at a supersonic cruise speed, Pogosyan said.

“This engine meets the client’s requirements. This is not an intermediate product made particularly for test flights. The engine will be installed in jets, which will be supplied to the Russian Air Force and prospective foreign clients,” he said.

There will be another engine in the future, but it will take ten to twelve years to develop, Pogosyan said.

The fifth-generation fighter jet, also known as PAK FA, is being developed by the state-owned Sukhoi aviation company. According to information released by Sukhoi, the jet will be able to travel at 1,250 miles per hour and a range of up to 3,500 miles. It will incorporate stealth technology and come with air-to-air, air-to-surface, and air- to-ship missiles.

The jet’s first few test flights have already been carried out.
 

p2prada

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Carrying an internal payload will increase its weight beyond a clean Su-35BM which has exhibited 1.2 without afterburner. Figure it out...
The Su-35 BM is heavier, not as aerodynamically fine tuned as the PAKFA and has lower thrust engines. The PAKFA is said to supercruise with the current engines at combat load. Newer, more advanced versions of the 117S will obviously come out as time passes.

And stop harping on the .5m2 RCS. You are being as silly as the time you suggested the PAKFA will be a modified Flanker. It is a $10Billion project, maybe more. Nobody believes that RCS figure. Unless, of course, you refuse to let your fanboy antics go and continue with meaningful discussion.
 

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