Sukhoi PAK FA

[Yumdoot]

My two penny worth opinion :

The IAF is trying to do a Su 30 MKI repeat on FGFA where they will go for 56 PAKFA and then give their inputs to Sukhoi/HAL to tweek it and et-voila... you'll have a MKIéd PAKFA or FGFA in our parlance!!

I think there would be a return clause somewhere in there so that we can return the T-50 / PAKFA to the Russians the same way we returned the Su-30 M/Mk.

Bearing the above in mind I have objections to the title of the above article.... IAF has not halved the FGFA order but just ordered 56 T-50's to test and get a feel off so that they can lay down the essentials for FGFA!! SMART MOVE I SAY AND STUPID CAPTION OF THE TITLE!!

For the existing Russian Airforce - almost half of the Mig-29 fleet, almost whole of Mig31 fleet, almost the whole of S-27 fleet has already seen or will be seeing major upgrades.

Then there is a whole lot of production of new orders of completely new types of these.

Then Russian AF has declared that they will buy as many PAKFA as the Russian aviation industry can produce.

In all this I don't understand how and how many can the Russians supply before 2020. If the 56 are to be the order size of PAKFA along the logic that was used for initial squad worth of Su-30 then either Russians have to really ramp up production. Alternatively there can be some other manner of production (Make in India), but that is highly unlikely given our own difficulties in production.

If the PAKFA has to come on returnable basis then they cannot be more than 20 or so.

Besides you cannot really bet on IAF leadership. They have played their politics publicly while protecting their self-interests for so long that they are masters of this by now. This is an oblique way of saying we will not hesitate to jeopardize the FGFA, unless we are given more than just 36 Rafales.

Reality is we just do not have the budget for both Rafales and FGFA. The 5th Gen is already upon us.

Modi has bitten the bullet by ordering 36 which coincidentally, is also the number of immediate requirements. I believe Dassault wants to force open the door for a fuller production plan for 36+90 with a different & higher unit price allowing itself a new production line in a third world country (front ended through RIL).

My guess is that the best way to go about improving the capability of the IAF is by upgrading the in blocks the Su-30MKIs that we already have. For example we can have 40 MKIs with IrbisE, 60+ more with Byelka and leave 60+ for retirements with BARS stage itself and keep operating latest productions with BARS till late in the day such that eventually they are upgraded with the radar that comes after Byelka. I mean, just as my 2 paisa.

We are wasting our time with Rafale. Just buy off the shelf the initial 36 and be done with it. Pump all resources into LCA Mk-2 and Uttam AESA. Seek Saab help in production line set up if we have to provided Saab helps with an offer for production technologies that help push up the production quantities. If the offer is merely of quality improvements, then simply dunk that too. In terms of quality there is little that ADA+HAL cannot do by there own efforts and that can only be sourced from Saab.

So its not as simple as finding funds. Funds can be found but what is the item on offer. If the offer is merely of Rafales then there is only a little bang that our mega-bucks are giving us.

 

[smestarz]

For the existing Russian Airforce - almost half of the Mig-29 fleet, almost whole of Mig31 fleet, almost the whole of S-27 fleet has already seen or will be seeing major upgrades.

Then there is a whole lot of production of new orders of completely new types of these.

Then Russian AF has declared that they will buy as many PAKFA as the Russian aviation industry can produce.

In all this I don't understand how and how many can the Russians supply before 2020. If the 56 are to be the order size of PAKFA along the logic that was used for initial squad worth of Su-30 then either Russians have to really ramp up production. Alternatively there can be some other manner of production (Make in India), but that is highly unlikely given our own difficulties in production.

If the PAKFA has to come on returnable basis then they cannot be more than 20 or so.

Besides you cannot really bet on IAF leadership. They have played their politics publicly while protecting their self-interests for so long that they are masters of this by now. This is an oblique way of saying we will not hesitate to jeopardize the FGFA, unless we are given more than just 36 Rafales.

Reality is we just do not have the budget for both Rafales and FGFA. The 5th Gen is already upon us.

Modi has bitten the bullet by ordering 36 which coincidentally, is also the number of immediate requirements. I believe Dassault wants to force open the door for a fuller production plan for 36+90 with a different & higher unit price allowing itself a new production line in a third world country (front ended through RIL).

My guess is that the best way to go about improving the capability of the IAF is by upgrading the in blocks the Su-30MKIs that we already have. For example we can have 40 MKIs with IrbisE, 60+ more with Byelka and leave 60+ for retirements with BARS stage itself and keep operating latest productions with BARS till late in the day such that eventually they are upgraded with the radar that comes after Byelka. I mean, just as my 2 paisa.

We are wasting our time with Rafale. Just buy off the shelf the initial 36 and be done with it. Pump all resources into LCA Mk-2 and Uttam AESA. Seek Saab help in production line set up if we have to provided Saab helps with an offer for production technologies that help push up the production quantities. If the offer is merely of quality improvements, then simply dunk that too. In terms of quality there is little that ADA+HAL cannot do by there own efforts and that can only be sourced from Saab.

So its not as simple as finding funds. Funds can be found but what is the item on offer. If the offer is merely of Rafales then there is only a little bang that our mega-bucks are giving us.

The recent report of drubbing of Eurofighter in exercise and also the IAF testing of Eurofighter and Rafale and coming to conclusion that both the eurocanards are competitive does in a way showcase the more capability of Su-30 MKI platform.
IAF top brass are heavily into politics and when the next one is in line they are "educated" in the same way.
Many times I do not understand the term "medium" weight, as if we are entering some boxing competition. An air force buys planes depending on role and capabilities. Thus what role is there which Rafale can do but Su-30 MKI cannot? Su-30 MKI has better range and total package of Range and warload. For long range Rafale has to sacrifice warload for Range. which Su-30 MKI does not.

IAF has no real need of Rafale but yes but one political family and IAF top brass already have their hands greased enough to fix the parameters and calculations.

We have invested in PAKFA and we should order 3-5 Squadrons of the same and maybe MKIse them. Remember 5th Gen planes will be very powerful but at the same time very expensive to use and maintain, thus there should be balance in numbers so that they are enough to get the job done and budget enough to keep them flying.

Dump the Rafale, focus more efforts on Tejas II and AMCA, Why is there not much talk of AMCA. its best if HAL tries to push the design of the same, I feel that HAL already has too much on its plate (Tejas II, FGFA etc)

If India orders 36 Rafales it will be a mistake because then IAF will make sure that they will ensure that Rafale fleet is well maintained at the cost of Su-30 MKI. and thus bring in more Rafale due to "higher availability rate" Already Parrikar has improved the availability rate of Su-30 MKI, imagine a civiilian Minister able to do what professional IAF top brass could not see. Or maybe they just chose to close their eyes very similar to the Leadership of past MMS

 

[NLD]

Heard everyone of you…
I wish IAF has not taken this decision…
But still if really IAF has took the decision to reduce no of 5th gen fighters i think it is the worst move by them.
What i think is operational (FOC) LCA is still a dream…
When this dream will come true…Still no answer…
Now at this tight situation even rafale is going slowly towards the dream project…It seems some problem is in the investment in India…
So what i think is IAF should follow conventional method…buy some aircrafts to fill the gap…and has to find and bring someone like Kurt Tank and complete these aircrafts (LCA,AMCA).
I dont think our lazy HAL can give us LCA or AMCA at the needed time and it is of complete waste if it is delayed and once again IAF will be blamed saying when project was at the completion state and IAF modified its demand…and moreover if govt goes behind make in india and wait for HAL to complete the task i think we will neither get FGFA nor indegenious FA.

 

[sorcerer]

India May Take the Rafale Route to Purchase Russian T-50 Stealth Fighters


South Asia
11:55 12.08.2015(updated 11:58 12.08.2015) Get short URL
04610
India may opt for off-the-shelf purchase of three squadrons of the Russian T-50 fifth generation stealth fighters, instead of taking the earlier Joint R & D route to manufacture 127 fighters in India.

Just as the Indian MoD abandoned discussions for licence-manufacture of the Rafale in India and went in for direct procurement of three squadrons, it may do the same in case of the T-50 for speedier procurement, reports Defense World.

The T-50 aircraft, also called the PAK-FA (Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation) is currently in advanced development in Russia with five prototypes undergoing tests. The Russian air force plans to induct 12 aircraft from 2016 onwards.

© Sputnik. Alexei Druzhinin
Russian PAK FA Fifth Generation Fighter Performs Spin Maneuver (VIDEO)

Russian Deputy Defence Minister in charge of Armaments, Yuri Borisov, has said in May this year after visiting the Sukhoi T-50 production plant, “the company is ready to start mass production of the fifth generation fighter starting in 2016”.
The Tribune newspaper reported quoting unnamed sources that the Indian Air Force (IAF) has scaled down its needs in view of budgetary constraints and may now buy three squadrons (around 18 planes in each), besides a few more for pilot training.

Another reason could be long gestation period; it will take about 8 years for the first aircraft to be delivered to the IAF in case India opts for the R&D contract route. India is faced with a severe shortage of aircraft and with China developing its own stealth fighter, India need to come up with its own sooner than later.

Indian Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar had told parliament last week that the preliminary design stage of the fifth generation fighter aircraft programme completed in June 2013 incurring an expenditure of Rs 1,483.15 crore (US$240 million).




Read more: http://in.sputniknews.com/south_asia/20150812/1015369001.html#ixzz3ibSJYRWk

 

[SajeevJino]

The Tribune newspaper reported quoting unnamed sources that the Indian Air Force (IAF) has scaled down its needs in view of budgetary constraints and may now buy three squadrons (around 18 planes in each), besides a few more for pilot training.

everyone quoting the same ... Shall I ask Tribune is Prime Minister or the unnamed sources is the Chief of Air staff

 

[sorcerer]

Sukhoi PAK FA T-50 shows off its best dance moves


While we talk plenty about America's two new fifth-generation fighter jets, the F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II, there's substantially less info on its potential adversary, Russia's Sukhoi PAK FA T-50.

Developed to counter the Americans, the PAK FA incorporates stealth technology, thrust vectoring, and supercruise (the ability to travel at supersonic speeds without the use of afterburners). That said, it's been a troubled program, not unlike its American counterparts, facing cost overruns and technical hurdles. The Russian Air Force has been forced to slash its initial order of 150 planes to just 12, due to the aircraft's high cost and the struggling Russian economy. That's also bad news for Sukhoi which, according to The Aviantionist, had planned to sell some 400 aircraft between Russia and co-developer India. The sub-continent's superpower has also trimmed its order, although nowhere near as dramatically as its partner.

While the program may be troubled, as evidenced by the video above, its abilities are absolutely dynamite. Maneuvers start off simple enough, but then the big plane's pilot turns things up to 11 and begins executing all sorts of wild and crazy thrust-vectoring maneuvers. There's the iconic and distinctly Russian Pugachev's Cobra, and then some wild flat spin maneuvers. In short, with dance moves like this, the T-50 should prove a handful if it ever ends up facing off against an F-22 or F-35.

Check out the video up top (and sorry about the Russian).

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/08/10/sukhoi-pak-fa-shows-best-dance-moves-video/
http://nextbigfuture.com/2015/08/video-of-russian-pak-fa-stealth-fighter.html

 

[sob]

I always take any news on Russian programmes with a big pinch of salt. We all have to just look back at the Vikramaditya debacle, how the Russians fleeced us.

Regarding the T 50 there were news just a few months back that the Russian AF had scaled downtime orders, now the reports say that they are ready to go in for mass manufacturing. Something does not smell nice.

I just get a feeling that they are happy to take our Dollars but are not willing to to share any technical detail.

 

[sob]

Sukhoi PAK FA T-50 shows off its best dance moves


While we talk plenty about America's two new fifth-generation fighter jets, the F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II, there's substantially less info on its potential adversary, Russia's Sukhoi PAK FA T-50.

Developed to counter the Americans, the PAK FA incorporates stealth technology, thrust vectoring, and supercruise (the ability to travel at supersonic speeds without the use of afterburners). That said, it's been a troubled program, not unlike its American counterparts, facing cost overruns and technical hurdles. The Russian Air Force has been forced to slash its initial order of 150 planes to just 12, due to the aircraft's high cost and the struggling Russian economy. That's also bad news for Sukhoi which, according to The Aviantionist, had planned to sell some 400 aircraft between Russia and co-developer India. The sub-continent's superpower has also trimmed its order, although nowhere near as dramatically as its partner.

While the program may be troubled, as evidenced by the video above, its abilities are absolutely dynamite. Maneuvers start off simple enough, but then the big plane's pilot turns things up to 11 and begins executing all sorts of wild and crazy thrust-vectoring maneuvers. There's the iconic and distinctly Russian Pugachev's Cobra, and then some wild flat spin maneuvers. In short, with dance moves like this, the T-50 should prove a handful if it ever ends up facing off against an F-22 or F-35.

Check out the video up top (and sorry about the Russian).

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/08/10/sukhoi-pak-fa-shows-best-dance-moves-video/
http://nextbigfuture.com/2015/08/video-of-russian-pak-fa-stealth-fighter.html

The recent exercise in UK showed us what the Flankers are capable of in WVR combat and this T 50 is carrying the same legacy forward. But we are now increasingly headed towards a BVR combat scenario, where most of the action will take place. It will ultimately boil down to the level of stealth achieved by the Russians, quality of the engine and the AESA radar. For me this is the weak link in this aircraft.

 

[cobra commando]

http://sputniknews.com/infographics/20150812/1025671772.html

 

[sorcerer]

IAF halves its demand for Russian fighter jets

..
..
Sources say the IAF has scaled down its needs and now indicated that just three squadrons (around 18 planes in each), besides a few more for training of the pilots, will be enough for now. This works out to be 65 planes, almost half from the earlier projection of 127 FGFAs to be jointly designed and produced by India and Russia.
..
..
New Delhi has suggested to Moscow that the T-50 fighter jet can be supplied to the IAF, while the research to improve upon the aircraft can carry on simultaneously. The Tribune had first reported about India’s offer on February 24 this year. Simultaneously, the IAF is also working on a $11 billion R&D contract for long-term development of the jet. It is pending ratification since 2013. In a written reply to the Rajya Sabha on August 4, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said the preliminary design stage of the fifth generation fighter aircraft programme completed in June 2013.

“The expenditure incurred so far is Rs 1,483.15 crore,” Parrikar said. The next stage of development of the fifth generation fighter aircraft will commence after signing of the R&D contract. The problem is in case India opts for the R&D contract route, the deliveries are envisaged to commence 94 months – eight years. The next best option is to go for an immediate off-the-shelf purchase and in case the research-and-development contract works out, more jets can be produced here.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/iaf-halves-its-demand-for-russian-fighter-jets/118288.html

 

[Adioz]

Sources say the IAF has scaled down its needs and now indicated that just three squadrons (around 18 planes in each), besides a few more for training of the pilots, will be enough for now. This works out to be 65 planes, almost half from the earlier projection of 127 FGFAs to be jointly designed and produced by India and Russia.
..
..
New Delhi has suggested to Moscow that the T-50 fighter jet can be supplied to the IAF, while the research to improve upon the aircraft can carry on simultaneously.

“The expenditure incurred so far is Rs 1,483.15 crore,” Parrikar said. The next stage of development of the fifth generation fighter aircraft will commence after signing of the R&D contract. The problem is in case India opts for the R&D contract route, the deliveries are envisaged to commence 94 months – eight years. The next best option is to go for an immediate off-the-shelf purchase and in case the research-and-development contract works out, more jets can be produced here.

What the IAF is doing :-
We can't wait 8 years for FGFA to fully develop.
Lets buy 65 T-50s
Meanwhile continue R&D to make the improved FGFA and buy them 8 years later.

The IAF wants a stop-gap. T-50 is available. The budgetary constraints that apply today will not apply 8 years hence.

 

[bose]

What the IAF is doing :-
We can't wait 8 years for FGFA to fully develop.
Lets buy 65 T-50s
Meanwhile continue R&D to make the improved FGFA and buy them 8 years later.

The IAF wants a stop-gap. T-50 is available. The budgetary constraints that apply today will not apply 8 years hence.

I would say it is good idea.. one in hand is better than then in bush... We should continue to work in FGFA & AMCA with seriously and time bound program implementation... at the same time it will ensure we do not get caught in a difficult situation in an eventuality of a war... T-50 is too good for anything we see around ... three squadron of T-50 will be fine...

 

[akshay m]

seems 050-1 is back after that fuselage fracture.
fuselage seems to be strengthened, that yellowish part

good to see her again
now waiting for the 050-5/050-6 Frankenstein

 

[jackprince]

The halving of demand can be a sign the govt. is giving russia the signal that it needs to check itself entertaining other interests which are at contrary to India's interest. Defence equipment wise India is the biggest buyer for russia and china would be a poor replacement. Now russia needs to choose whether they want to carry on the way they have started recently or they can live without India. India can live without russia, despite a bit trouble initially, and thrive too.

 

[Neeraj Mathur]

guys when can we see PAK FA with weapon bay

 

[akshay m]

guys when can we see PAK FA with weapon bay

NONE SO FAR ,BUT HERE'S SU 47 Berkut with one

 

[akshay m]

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[alphacentury]

^^^^^^^
Simply Awesome............................

 

[cobra commando]

T-50 had a test flight @ Ramenskoye. 16 AUG, 2015.

 

[Yumdoot]

Vikramaditya was during a really bad phase for the Russians and during a really rotten leadership in India. Without going into the real causes and merely doing a song and dance about Vikramaditya is beginning to sound more and more like the fake outrage over the Gujarat Riots.

Actually we can do with lesser numbers of PAKFA also instead of going all out on FGFA.

Look at it like this. We all know that the Su-30 served two different purposes overall in Russian AF and Indian AF. Same basic plane but different evolutionary paths. Why cannot the same be true of PAKFA / FGFA. The real need for a heavy 5th gen, IMO, is because of its ability (i) to do very long range missions (ii) to carry a whole lot of really big sensors.

For (ii) we only need a few PAKFAs - probably in the 40s or 50s, basically working as stealth nodes in the networked AF battles of the future.
For (i) we may have to find a solution. Like very long range stealthier Air-to-Surface-Missiles. Or SRBMs. Or tanker support for AMCA classed stealthier air-crafts. Or a mix of all these.

So if the Russians do not agree on the work-share & timelines, then it does make little sense to keep negotiating with both the French and the Russians. Instead probably in such a case of low workshare we should just abandon both the Rafale (completely) and put all the saved money in buying off the shelf a very limited number of PAKFAs and pump in all the money into AMCA. Engines will remain a weak link till a really hard indigenous path is finally successful - which in any case is unavoidable even with foreign help.

Till now the Kaveri was underfunded and leaderless. Nearly hunted to extinction by the IAF leadership. More funds for indigenous engine will force the Political leadership too keep IAF out of the reckoning also and keep the indigenous effort from any kind of sabotage.