Sukhoi PAK FA

[archie]

Twelve of anything is not production, limited or otherwise; and tell us more about these "Advanced Engines" of which you so faithfully speak. As for capabilities... if the PAK-FA is so close operational status, why haven't we seen a single weapon launched from the weapons bay yet? It's been spotted with external loads (most likely for aerodynamic/weight-&-balance testing), but even those haven't been used; and in any case, being stuck with external weapons kinda defeats the entire purpose of having a VLO airframe at all.

And through all this, when exactly was India planning to get its first prototype? Since I've been here, the 2-seater has been dumped and the date for the first Indian plane has slipped from 2014, to 2016, to sometime after 2018... always with some confusion over whether this means an actual FGFA or one of Russia's spare PAK-FAs. Now that the Russians have canned the project themselves, I rather doubt the IAF will flight-test any VLO aircraft before 2020.

Are you of the habbit of ranting or do you even read the comments .. Maybe your blinded By So called F-35 Progress..

Understand first From Open sources

Current status:
5 Prototypes in testing

Russian AF order first batch 12 aircraft is Limited Series production that will be handed over probaby 2016
After they see the production cost and so on Will give production Order based on the then Current russian economy , threat perception and so on..

FGFA(Indian) is customised version of PAKFA just as how SU30MKI was derivative of SU 30 PAKFA is not set in stone and will move based on how far FGFA goes.. IAF might get Airframe 2016 or 2017 with current engines

PAKGA is to have "izdeliye 30" engines which are still being designed Current uprated AL31F engines are standby till new one is tested for reliablility its not expected till 2020

Meaning if you still did not get it.. The Whole aircraft project is still undegoing development

Boy get outside your world its a big big world ...

 

[akshay m]

excellent documentry
[video]https://youtu.be/CYAw-FhTxHw[/video]

 

[sgarg]

I doubt IAF is buying F-22 in the form of PAK-FA. It is clear the tech base is different and the plane will have different capabilities. The IAF's crib is more about proving what has been promised.
However the circumstances may dictate a PAK-FA buy by India; even if the plane is less capable than "IAF spec sheet".

The development of fifth gen planes in China is giving sleepless nights to IAF. It is just a matter of time before the scales tilt.

 

[asianobserve]

However the circumstances may dictate a PAK-FA buy by India; even if the plane is less capable than "IAF spec sheet".

The development of fifth gen planes in China is giving sleepless nights to IAF. It is just a matter of time before the scales tilt.

This might be a fool's errand for the IAF. Russia is looking more and more to China for trade offering everything from oil to still-to-be inducted SAMs. India should be very careful in buying 100% Russian fighter plane to counter CHina. If the IAF must buy PAKFA then it should stay on the side of caution and install its own parts (possibly sourced from Israel or other non-Russian sources) for critical Russian parts/tech.

Note that China is already buying Su35 from Russia. No doubt a lot of the critical tech in PAKFA have its origin from this latest evolution of the venerable Su27. As for the newer parts, well I'm sure Chinese generals can buy from the hungry Russians whatever it is.

 

[smestarz]

The answer is simple,
The orders from Russia most of the kickbacks go to politicians and almost nothing to the IAF brass
But with Rafale, the Top brass has better kickbacks for contributing to getting of the deal
I am still not able to understand the implication of Medium and Heavy when it comes to MRCA.

Single and Twin engine makes a good significant difference but are we now going to see something like

Light Light (Tejas)
Light medium (Gripen)
Light heavy (F-16)
Medium light (MiG-35)
Medium medium (Rafale/F/A-18)
Medium Heavy (Eurofighter typhoon)
Heavy Light (Su-35)
Heavy Medium (Su-30 MKI)
Heavy Heavy (Su-34)

By these standards we have potentially each aircraft that is required in our arsenal.. take a note IAF

 

[Khagesh]

The answer is simple,
The orders from Russia most of the kickbacks go to politicians and almost nothing to the IAF brass
But with Rafale, the Top brass has better kickbacks for contributing to getting of the deal
I am still not able to understand the implication of Medium and Heavy when it comes to MRCA.

Single and Twin engine makes a good significant difference but are we now going to see something like

Light Light (Tejas)
Light medium (Gripen)
Light heavy (F-16)
Medium light (MiG-35)
Medium medium (Rafale/F/A-18)
Medium Heavy (Eurofighter typhoon)
Heavy Light (Su-35)
Heavy Medium (Su-30 MKI)
Heavy Heavy (Su-34)

By these standards we have potentially each aircraft that is required in our arsenal.. take a note IAF

Light Light (Tejas)
Light medium (Gripen) - Will never come.
Light heavy (F-16) - Will never come.
Medium light (MiG-35) - Will never come.
Medium medium (Rafale/F/A-18) - Will never come.
Medium Heavy (Eurofighter typhoon) - Will never come.
Heavy Light (Su-35) - Will never come.
Heavy Medium (Su-30 MKI)
Heavy Heavy (Su-34) - Will never come.

As I see it happening.


In next 15 years we will host the following:
LCA category - Tejas Mk-1 & 2
MCA category strike - Mig27+Jag
MCA category Multirole - Mirage2000 UPG+Mig29UPG+Rafale+AMCA
Heavies Multirole - Super MKI+FGFA


After that at various points old types will go out and we will be left with much more sane:
LCA category - Tejas Mk-1 & 2
MCA category strike - Rafale
MCA category Multirole - AMCA
Heavies Multirole - Super MKI+FGFA

Normally you could have expected Super MKIs also to be relegated to strike only roles due to their bigger RCS but the volume this aircraft carries will basically make it a non-stealthy 5th Gen in the mid life upgrades. You can carry of lot of instruments and of a kind that demand much bigger volumes and weights for their deployment than any other aircraft. Appropriately sauced with some very long legs this Heavy is going to be around for a very long time. People are beholden to Stealth but there is more to life then that.

So, not such a desperate situation, after all. We are in transition from Pre 5th gen to Post 5th Gen where we will be managing with mixed type formations.

 

[smestarz]

Light Light (Tejas)
Light medium (Gripen) - Will never come.
Light heavy (F-16) - Will never come.
Medium light (MiG-35) - Will never come.
Medium medium (Rafale/F/A-18) - Will never come.
Medium Heavy (Eurofighter typhoon) - Will never come.
Heavy Light (Su-35) - Will never come.
Heavy Medium (Su-30 MKI)
Heavy Heavy (Su-34) - Will never come.

As I see it happening.


In next 15 years we will host the following:
LCA category - Tejas Mk-1 & 2
MCA category strike - Mig27+Jag
MCA category Multirole - Mirage2000 UPG+Mig29UPG+Rafale+AMCA
Heavies Multirole - Super MKI+FGFA


After that at various points old types will go out and we will be left with much more sane:
LCA category - Tejas Mk-1 & 2
MCA category strike - Rafale
MCA category Multirole - AMCA
Heavies Multirole - Super MKI+FGFA

Normally you could have expected Super MKIs also to be relegated to strike only roles due to their bigger RCS but the volume this aircraft carries will basically make it a non-stealthy 5th Gen in the mid life upgrades. You can carry of lot of instruments and of a kind that demand much bigger volumes and weights for their deployment than any other aircraft. Appropriately sauced with some very long legs this Heavy is going to be around for a very long time. People are beholden to Stealth but there is more to life then that.

So, not such a desperate situation, after all. We are in transition from Pre 5th gen to Post 5th Gen where we will be managing with mixed type formations.

You got the jest of my quote, that going like that we can have N no of weight class, by the way I forgot the super heavy class.

as per me

Light Light (Tejas)
Light medium (Gripen) - DONT WANT IT BUT USED AS CARROT TO PUSH HAL
Light heavy (F-16) - PAF HAS IT SO NO USE,
Medium light (MiG-35) - NOT SURE, BUT WE HAVE MIG 29 WHICH CAN BE UPGRADED TO SIMILAR STATUS.
Medium medium (Rafale/F/A-18) - RAFALE SEEMS INTERESTING, THOUGH I AGREE THAT I DONT WANT EITHER
Medium Heavy (Eurofighter typhoon) - WE DO NOT REQUIRE ANYTHING FROM LIGHT MEDIUM TO MEDIUM HEAVY.
Heavy Light (Su-35) - COULD BE WHAT IAF CAN TAKE IF RAFALE IS NOT SIGNED, THIS LOOKS INTERESTING
Heavy Medium (Su-30 MKI) WE HAVE IT AND COULD BE MORE SU-35 INSTEAD OF SU-30 MKI
Heavy Heavy (Su-34) - I LOVE THIS PLANE, JUST LOVE IT AND HOPE INDIA TAKES 36 !!!

Su-34 can carry heavy load and also range, a perfect air craft for naval land based aviation that can do reconaissance and strike complimenting P-8I

 

[Khagesh]

Seriously doubt if Su-34 can do long range support for P-8I, unless you are ok with a hi-hi-hi mission and that too with a very lowish payload (~2 tons of weapons) and visible to a Hawkeye styled system from hundreds of kilometers away.

You will need something in the class of Tu22M to complement the P8I. This should give you something like 1500 km combat radius with subsonic lo-lo-lo profile and with multiple Brahmos load (~4/5 - edited from earlier 6).

Tupolev Tu-22M - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

During the 1970s, Tu-22M made a few simulated attack runs against U.S. Navy carrier battle groups. The bomber also made attempts to test Japan's air defense boundary on several occasions. On Good Friday night, 29 March 2013, two Tu-22M3 bombers made simulated attacks on Sweden. The Swedish air defense failed to respond.

Su34 would never get used like the above.

Though even Tu22M may not be required in Indian Navy, since there is no pressing need. Which means we can go the visionary route. We should instead join the PAKDA development.

 

[Khagesh]

Tu-95, Tu-160, Tu-22M strategic Russian bombers


enjoy

:thumb:

 

[sgarg]

@Khagesh, please consider this:

a. Both Jaguar and Mig-27 are outdated DESPITE upgrades. Jaguar can no longer fit into DPSA as AWACS has made low level flying equally risky.
b. Mig-27 will be retired completely in the next few years. My feeling is Jaguar does not have long life either.
c. There is unanimity in IAF and GOI that India needs multi-role fighters. Even "small" fighters need to be multi-role. The defensive ability has become paramount now.
d. Even Mig-21UPG has become obsolescent.

Practically the fighters that you will continue to see after one decade are Mig-29, Mirage-2000, Su-30, FGFA/PAK-FA, Rafale, LCA, and maybe small numbers of Jaguar.

India needs to replace 260 Mig-21 and 220 Mig-27 and Jaguar within the next decade. This gives a figure of 50 fighters per year.

 

[SajeevJino]

@Khagesh, please consider this:

a. Both Jaguar and Mig-27 are outdated DESPITE upgrades. Jaguar can no longer fit into DPSA as AWACS has made low level flying equally risky.

Before posting BS claims about Jaguar please read the Jaguar thread or ask any Jaguar Pilots in social media, Number of Jaguar pilots are there in Twitter

 

[Pulkit]

@Khagesh,
India needs to replace 260 Mig-21 and 220 Mig-27 and Jaguar within the next decade. This gives a figure of 50 fighters per year.

Jaguar Service-life upgrades to be completed by 2020 as per wiki so that means we will have them for a big longer.
In the next 1 decade these will be a phase wise retirement of these aircrafts.

I do not agree with the 50 per year figure that might even go higher as what we are replacing is of 34 sqaud and we need 42 atleast by 2030.

I can see 250 Tejas MK1 & Mk2 + SU left to be build + 36 rafale + 114 FGFA

This is the plan for next decade and that will meet our most of the replacement and even add few more squads.

 

[sgarg]

Before posting BS claims about Jaguar please read the Jaguar thread or ask any Jaguar Pilots in social media, Number of Jaguar pilots are there in Twitter

Do not ask others this READ BS. Jaguar has been retired by both France and UK due to some very important reason.
Indian Jags do not run on magic.
If MOD is so convinced about Jag, why engine upgrade has not been sanctioned??

 

[SajeevJino]

Do not ask others this READ BS. Jaguar has been retired by both France and UK due to some very important reason.

One have Mirages another went for Tornodo Oman too go for F 16, What about India.

Indian Jags do not run on magic.

any other Planes in the world running on Magic's

If MOD is so convinced about Jag, why engine upgrade has not been sanctioned??

DARIN III already completed, the Honeywell issue is MoD suspects single vendor deal, so for only Honeywell bidding but MoD want more to make competition

 

[smestarz]

Seriously doubt if Su-34 can do long range support for P-8I, unless you are ok with a hi-hi-hi mission and that too with a very lowish payload (~2 tons of weapons) and visible to a Hawkeye styled system from hundreds of kilometers away.

You will need something in the class of Tu22M to complement the P8I. This should give you something like 1500 km combat radius with subsonic lo-lo-lo profile and with multiple Brahmos load (~4/5 - edited from earlier 6).

Tupolev Tu-22M - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Su34 would never get used like the above.

Though even Tu22M may not be required in Indian Navy, since there is no pressing need. Which means we can go the visionary route. We should instead join the PAKDA development.

If Su-34 is visible from few hundred kms then P-8I will be lit up even from a distance, but one of the thing with Su-34 can do is take care of itself if attacked which P-8I cannot do. For the mission Su-34 need not be fully armed, just 2 X anti shipping missiles. 2 short range missiles and 2 medium/long range missiles. Tu-22 is a strategic bomber which has no ability to have A2A combat, and I am not saying dog fight as it cannot. but on other hand Su-34 can do almost 90% of what Tu-22 can do. It can be put on with EFTs and also be refueled in air if required.

 

[smestarz]

Do not ask others this READ BS. Jaguar has been retired by both France and UK due to some very important reason.
Indian Jags do not run on magic.
If MOD is so convinced about Jag, why engine upgrade has not been sanctioned??

As per what I understand the game of the IAF was to replace MiG-21 and MiG-27 by Rafales and eventually even the Jaguars.
Jaguars are good planes but consider what our enemies have they shall be needing escorts. The F-16 that PAF has can match jaguars for speed and are more than capable to take them down. So I do agree and add that both Jaguars and upgraded Mirage 2000 are outdated as compared to what our neighbours have. Jaguars or Mirage 2000 would not be able to fly a strike without escorts.

 

[SajeevJino]

As per what I understand the game of the IAF was to replace MiG-21 and MiG-27 by Rafales and eventually even the Jaguars.
Jaguars are good planes but consider what our enemies have they shall be needing escorts. The F-16 that PAF has can match jaguars for speed and are more than capable to take them down. So I do agree and add that both Jaguars and upgraded Mirage 2000 are outdated as compared to what our neighbours have. Jaguars or Mirage 2000 would not be able to fly a strike without escorts.

Jaguar mainly used for strike purpose both Maritime and strike version, They will strike enemy points once their AD batteries were compromised, even the same can be done using Jags with Martel and latest AGM-88 Harm missiles ( if we ordered ) (Some IM uses Harpoon missile ) ( with harpoons IAF also bought some AGM 88 but no confirmation )

also latest addition of ASRAAM package will give the Jaguar self reliant in any kind of Attacks


and Mirage 2000 TI is one of the best Multi role in IAF arsenal, and it can do stand alone missions, both for Air to Air and Air to Ground Mission

 

[smestarz]

Jaguar mainly used for strike purpose both Maritime and strike version, They will strike enemy points once their AD batteries were compromised, even the same can be done using Jags with Martel and latest AGM-88 Harm missiles ( if we ordered ) (Some IM uses Harpoon missile ) ( with harpoons IAF also bought some AGM 88 but no confirmation )

also latest addition of ASRAAM package will give the Jaguar self reliant in any kind of Attacks


and Mirage 2000 TI is one of the best Multi role in IAF arsenal, and it can do stand alone missions, both for Air to Air and Air to Ground Mission

When the Jaguar was capable of doing those missions, PAF did not have the more capable F-16 Block 52, thus for Jaguars to be able to be useful the Air defence batteries have to be used first, so why do we need Jaguars? The planes that take down the AD batteries use them for another role also. at least they are capable to take down AD batteries on their own.

ASRAAM is short range missile, you are going to bet on Jaguar with ASRAAM that is flying to hit a target against F-15 block 52 with AMRAAM C-5? Everyone knows who the winner will be, and that too without even getting into any sort of dogfight. Still feel Jaguar is capable?
It is capable IF ONLY IAF HAS AIR DOMINANCE, if not, best let Jags sit in their warm hangars.

Mirage 2000 even in upgraded form is outdated. even during Kargil they had to be accompanied by MiG-29 so that the PAF F-16s would stay away, so I think you need to reacess your claims.
Boss, our neigbour carry weapons and not paper planes.

 

[SajeevJino]

When the Jaguar was capable of doing those missions, PAF did not have the more capable F-16 Block 52,

When the DARIN III program initiated and comes flying, F 16 Blk 52 also in Baki Hands.

If we compare the F 16 and Jag D 3, I sure the Baki Blk 52 wins, But you have to know that Bakistan have less than a Squadron of Blk 52 fighters, others all Just Blk 15 with BVR Capability.

from F16.net

thus for Jaguars to be able to be useful the Air defence batteries have to be used first, so why do we need Jaguars? The planes that take down the AD batteries use them for another role also. at least they are capable to take down AD batteries on their own.

Sir

Didn't get what you are trying to say, sorry

ASRAAM is short range missile, you are going to bet on Jaguar with ASRAAM that is flying to hit a target against F-15 block 52 with AMRAAM C-5? Everyone knows who the winner will be, and that too without even getting into any sort of dogfight. Still feel Jaguar is capable?

are you saying the Pakistani's quickly identifies the Jaguars flying low in Bakistan and Attacking Their Radars, Bakistani have limited numbers of Lockheed AN TPS 77 which can be easily targeted by IAI Hrpy and Haroop drones and makes the Baki blind in the Airspace, on the other hands Jags can take care other mobile systems.

The Bakistani unaware of what striking their Heads, if they found out the Jags, even Blk 15 can engage it

It is capable IF ONLY IAF HAS AIR DOMINANCE, if not, best let Jags sit in their warm hangars.

I sure Deep strike can be done without the Complete Air dominance

Mirage 2000 even in upgraded form is outdated.

It was claimed that IAF Mirage 2000 TI is the most advanced Mirages outside the France, and it can be as good as the F 16 Block 60 version

even during Kargil they had to be accompanied by MiG-29 so that the PAF F-16s would stay away, so I think you need to reacess your claims.

Earlier Mirages were used only for strike purpose, they usually carriers ground strike munitions in it's wings, so it's hard to fight against other Fighters,

even if you arm the Su 30 MKI in full ground attack munition you need a escort plane

Boss, our neigbour carry weapons and not paper planes.

Sir. you know that I'm not a fan boy

 

[Khagesh]

You can check out the US invasion of Iraq to understand how even a low tech opponent can damage highly capable aircraft's intent on Deep penetration missions. You will be surprised at the number of aircrafts the US and its chamchas lost.

Deep penetration against AWACS equipped air force would be suicidal.

Added Later - Oh and forgot to add, till the upgrades Jaguars did not have auto pilot.

If Su-34 is visible from few hundred kms then P-8I will be lit up even from a distance, but one of the thing with Su-34 can do is take care of itself if attacked which P-8I cannot do. For the mission Su-34 need not be fully armed, just 2 X anti shipping missiles. 2 short range missiles and 2 medium/long range missiles. Tu-22 is a strategic bomber which has no ability to have A2A combat, and I am not saying dog fight as it cannot. but on other hand Su-34 can do almost 90% of what Tu-22 can do. It can be put on with EFTs and also be refueled in air if required.

P-8I or Su-34 or Tupolevs of various types are all easily detectable.

We can think of Su-34 in anti ship role only because there is no opponent for us in the Indian Ocean who can bring an AWACS along, yet.

But if you really wish to support a P-8I with a single refuel range of something like 8000 km+ then you need at least an aircraft with a range of 4000+6000 km. And since all aircrafts are detectable by AWACS hence only a lo-lo-lo mission will work and that too would be a circuitous route, avoiding the AWACS. Su-34 in such mode would give a combat radius of 500 km with one Brahmos. Off course, such a scenario can only get played out in the far future. But who knows how the Chinese might behave. What if they donate a few J-20s and a bigger AWACS on friendship prices to Pakis.

Probably our people saw the possibility of this and hence there was some talk of equipping Tu142s with Brahmos. Because unless you have a few Tu-142 or Tu22M or Tu160 on call with such weapons as Brahmos, you really cannot make the best use of the P-8I.

Even the Chinese for their own swimming pool use these longer ranged bombers with long ranged cruise missiles. Despite the fact that they too are not short of Su-27 category aircrafts.

Added Later: Jaguars too were equipped with Sea Eagles. You can see how well it worked and judge for yourself how good these smaller fighter bombers are in the maritime role.