Solution to Kashmir keeping India's strategic interests in mind

[Adux]

Twenty years ago, the specter of impending nuclear war was just beginning to fade from the collective mindset of most Americans, and there are few pundits, analysts, and think tanks that put anything into print these days about the stockpiles that remain in the US and Russia. Does the average man on the street in New Delhi live under the gloom of a possible thermonuclear mushroom cloud on the subcontinent?

I don't think so. Possibly because they don't understand the issue! Also because there is a sincere belief that none would be stupid enough to do so or even dream of using nukes as it would mean the other side too will get destroyed!

What would it take for either side to employ one of the warheads that India and Pakistan have stockpiled?

Indian politicians are too docile to even think of using it! Pakistan may use it if an Indian attack threatens their existence.

Interview with Ray | Small Wars Journal

 

[tony4562]

India wants to have direct access to Afganhistan, at a time US could not wait to get out of the country? So smart, I'm speechless! Right now India has in Pakistan a bufferzone for protection from the fierce Pashtun warrrirors to the north. Do you really want to have millions of fanatic taliban soliders marching down the alleys of new dehli, obliterating anything in their path? As I said so many times before, this is the age of islam awakening. The green relion is clearly on its quest to conque the world, everyone including China is trying to avoid it like pest. yet India, argurably the weakest country in the world on the per capital basis (1 Silver at the 2004 Olympics for a nation of 1.3 billion), wants to have its door wide open for the islamic invasion! i hope indian politicians are smarter than this.

 

[Param]

India wants to have direct access to Afganhistan, at a time US could not wait to get out of the country? So smart, I'm speechless! Right now India has in Pakistan a bufferzone for protection from the fierce Pashtun warrrirors to the north. Do you really want to have millions of fanatic taliban soliders marching down the alleys of new dehli, obliterating anything in their path? As I said so many times before, this is the age of islam awakening. The green relion is clearly on its quest to conque the world, everyone including China is trying to avoid it like pest. yet India, argurably the weakest country in the world on the per capital basis (1 Silver at the 2004 Olympics for a nation of 1.3 billion), wants to have its door wide open for the islamic invasion! i hope indian politicians are smarter than this.

Pakistan is not a buffer , it is a gateway.

 

[Tolaha]

India wants to have direct access to Afganhistan, at a time US could not wait to get out of the country? So smart, I'm speechless! Right now India has in Pakistan a bufferzone for protection from the fierce Pashtun warrrirors to the north. Do you really want to have millions of fanatic taliban soliders marching down the alleys of new dehli, obliterating anything in their path? As I said so many times before, this is the age of islam awakening. The green relion is clearly on its quest to conque the world, everyone including China is trying to avoid it like pest. yet India, argurably the weakest country in the world on the per capital basis (1 Silver at the 2004 Olympics for a nation of 1.3 billion), wants to have its door wide open for the islamic invasion! i hope indian politicians are smarter than this.

Wow... That's quite an interesting way of looking at things!

So how many Olympic gold medals is China planning to throw against Al Qaida? And what about the insurgency at Xinjaing.. maybe a mix of a few silver and bronzes?

 

[Bangalorean]

India wants to have direct access to Afganhistan, at a time US could not wait to get out of the country? So smart, I'm speechless! Right now India has in Pakistan a bufferzone for protection from the fierce Pashtun warrrirors to the north. Do you really want to have millions of fanatic taliban soliders marching down the alleys of new dehli, obliterating anything in their path? As I said so many times before, this is the age of islam awakening. The green relion is clearly on its quest to conque the world, everyone including China is trying to avoid it like pest. yet India, argurably the weakest country in the world on the per capital basis (1 Silver at the 2004 Olympics for a nation of 1.3 billion), wants to have its door wide open for the islamic invasion! i hope indian politicians are smarter than this.

Yet another asinine comment from you. The sixth. Do you really believe all the bullshit you write, or do you do it just to irritate us???

"Weakest nation in the world" - concluded based on olympic medals! Looking at your effeminate Chinese men, one would think that a few slaps should set your entire nation right.

If you are deluded enough to think "fanatic pashtun taliban" will be able to beat the Indian Army and march into New Delhi, you really need to take your bloody red book and throw it far far away.

 

[Yusuf]

Tony, Pashtuns are quite well disposed towards India. Talibans are not sole representatives of Pashtuns. Astan is friendly with India. We would not mind a direct link with them.

 

[pmaitra]

W.r.t. India taking back PoK and GB from Pakistani control:

Assumption 1: Pakistan will nuke us!
Rebuttal: On what grounds? We are not taking Pakistani territory, neither claiming it. Moreover, we fought the Kargil War when we both had nukes. Are we going to sit back and buckle down under this nuclear blackmail? Even if Pakistan used nukes, what will remain of Pakistan thereafter? Pakistanis are well aware of that. Let's face it, today or tomorrow, we'll have to fight Pakistan, with nukes in our possession. It is not a question of if; it is a question of when.

Assumption 2: We cannot take PoK and GB because it is too difficult a terrain and well defended!
Rebuttal 2: Not quite. We can take PoK and GB. We first need to lay a siege of Pakistan's major cities and we have already done that with Lahore earlier. We also have experience in mountain warfare. We have been fighting in Kashmir for decades and also fought in the Kargil War. Moreover, once we take PoK and manage to cut off GB, the Pakistani troops stationed in GB will be isolated and can be forced to surrender. Regiments predominantly of local stock might switch sides, especially after whatever happened to the Northern Light Infantry in the Kargil War.

Concern: On what circumstances could we lose?
There are a few, but one of them is definitely lack of self belief in ourselves.

 

[Yusuf]

W.r.t. India taking back PoK and GB from Pakistani control:

Assumption 1: Pakistan will nuke us!
Rebuttal: On what grounds? We are not taking Pakistani territory, neither claiming it. Moreover, we fought the Kargil War when we both had nukes. Are we going to sit back and buckle down under this nuclear blackmail? Even if Pakistan used nukes, what will remain of Pakistan thereafter? Pakistanis are well aware of that. Let's face it, today or tomorrow, we'll have to fight Pakistan, with nukes in our possession. It is not a question of if; it is a question of when.

Assumption 2: We cannot take PoK and GB because it is too difficult a terrain and well defended!
Rebuttal 2: Not quite. We can take PoK and GB. We first need to lay a siege of Pakistan's major cities and we have already done that with Lahore earlier. We also have experience in mountain warfare. We have been fighting in Kashmir for decades and also fought in the Kargil War. Moreover, once we take PoK and manage to cut off GB, the Pakistani troops stationed in GB will be isolated and can be forced to surrender. Regiments predominantly of local stock might switch sides, especially after whatever happened to the Northern Light Infantry in the Kargil War.

Concern: On what circumstances could we lose?
There are a few, but one of them is definitely lack of self belief in ourselves.

PM, for the pakis, GB is their territory. The way I see it is we cannot be the aggressor. That will give them a reason to bring out their nuke card. Pakis have over the years been stupid enough to attack us first. India has to make use of that opportunity.

Kargil cannot be compared to a war as talked about by you. Kargil was fought on Indian soil.

If there is a cold start employed, I think we can take a bit of GB during the war and the rest of it on the table.

I am a big proponent of calling Pak nuke bluff. But there is a threshold to it and I think we can fight a war within that. But starting a war with the sole intention of taking GB is doubtful. It has to be done with some sound strategy. Covert and overt. Break up of Pakistan is the covert part.

 

[Virendra]

Tony, Pashtuns are quite well disposed towards India. Talibans are not sole representatives of Pashtuns. Astan is friendly with India. We would not mind a direct link with them.

Perhaps he forgot or doesn't know that India bordered Afghanistan before the Partition happened and Pakistan was created.
Pashtun Muslims were living in Afghanistan even then.
They are a war torn country that is shaken by Soviet and American interferences for decades. Yet they are saner than the frustrated bigots sitting in between.
I'd any day choose them as neighbors over Pakistan.

Regards,
Virendra

 

[Adux]

W.r.t. India taking back PoK and GB from Pakistani control:

Assumption 1: Pakistan will nuke us!
Rebuttal: On what grounds? We are not taking Pakistani territory, neither claiming it. Moreover, we fought the Kargil War when we both had nukes. Are we going to sit back and buckle down under this nuclear blackmail? Even if Pakistan used nukes, what will remain of Pakistan thereafter? Pakistanis are well aware of that. Let's face it, today or tomorrow, we'll have to fight Pakistan, with nukes in our possession. It is not a question of if; it is a question of when.

Assumption 2: We cannot take PoK and GB because it is too difficult a terrain and well defended!
Rebuttal 2: Not quite. We can take PoK and GB. We first need to lay a siege of Pakistan's major cities and we have already done that with Lahore earlier. We also have experience in mountain warfare. We have been fighting in Kashmir for decades and also fought in the Kargil War. Moreover, once we take PoK and manage to cut off GB, the Pakistani troops stationed in GB will be isolated and can be forced to surrender. Regiments predominantly of local stock might switch sides, especially after whatever happened to the Northern Light Infantry in the Kargil War.

Concern: On what circumstances could we lose?
There are a few, but one of them is definitely lack of self belief in ourselves.

Idiotic and not to mention childish...

Pakistani's considers LoC different to IB. They thought exactly like you in 1965 after OP.Gilbertar, what did India do?
Pakistani's will use Nuclear Weapons, but yes the threshold level told by them might be higher than their claim.
What is Pakistan Army without Kashmir, Just like India cannot let J&K territory independent because it might induce other states to follow, Pakistan also has political problems, A nuclear Pakistan cannot exist by loosing important territory like PoK to Inda. A Nuclear India (1974) didnt do much to a non-nuclear Pakistan till 1999, Nobody is going to do anything to a nuclear Pakistan, We just dont have the stomach for it.

 

[Adux]

PM, for the pakis, GB is their territory. The way I see it is we cannot be the aggressor. That will give them a reason to bring out their nuke card. Pakis have over the years been stupid enough to attack us first. India has to make use of that opportunity.

Kargil cannot be compared to a war as talked about by you. Kargil was fought on Indian soil.

If there is a cold start employed, I think we can take a bit of GB during the war and the rest of it on the table.

I am a big proponent of calling Pak nuke bluff. But there is a threshold to it and I think we can fight a war within that. But starting a war with the sole intention of taking GB is doubtful. It has to be done with some sound strategy. Covert and overt. Break up of Pakistan is the covert part.

Do you think taking their so called 'primary territory of Kashmir' and India gaining direct access to Afghanistan, is not below their threshold ? Really? Would it be India's, if the roles were reversed. I would assume so.

 

[pmaitra]

Idiotic and not to mention childish...

Pakistani's considers LoC different to IB. They thought exactly like you in 1965 after OP.Gilbertar, what did India do?
Pakistani's will use Nuclear Weapons, but yes the threshold level told by them might be higher than their claim.
What is Pakistan Army without Kashmir, Just like India cannot let J&K territory independent because it might induce other states to follow, Pakistan also has political problems, A nuclear Pakistan cannot exist by loosing important territory like PoK to Inda. A Nuclear India (1974) didnt do much to a non-nuclear Pakistan till 1999, Nobody is going to do anything to a nuclear Pakistan, We just dont have the stomach for it.

How naïve. Who cares what they think of the LoC? They thought of the same thing and even threatened to use nukes during Kargil War. They always use that threat because that is all they can do. Whether we threaten drone strikes or a full scale war, they will always threaten to use nukes, so what? Buckle up right?

Why do you think the Army think-tank came up with the Cold Start policy? To take Pakistani territory in a short period of time, both across IB and LoC. That is exactly what I proposed in the map I posted, in phase 1. Yes, to you these ideas may be 'idiotic,' in fact you could be the 'acme of intelligence,' I know that. However, keep in mind, I am not the only one with such 'idiotic' ideas. Include those who came up with the Cold Start policy in that as well.

 

[Virendra]

Indian thrust across the LOC:
It would be on the ground that it is our land we're taking back. Pakistan doesn't share that view and will retaliate.
I believe it will not be nuclear because everyone knows Kashmir is a disputed area, but not Pakistan.
Indian thrust across the IB:
This time we enter a place which legitimately is Pakistan. They might resort to nukes only when we start taking over mainland via breach of IB.
They would believe that they can justify it with the now alarming threat perception that Pakistan's existence was on the rocks.

Now, coming to the debate here. I know wars are messy. They never proceed as clean and distinctly as shown above. So our pushing in through IB (alongside LOC) and saying that "we're doing this only to finally gain PoK which is ours" will not be accepted even by the international community. There's no moral high ground, if you're seeking one here.
It is all well and good to say and hear in our own camp but outside they would see it in their own way and react accordingly.
It doesn't mean you shouldn't go ahead. But it means you should think it bloody many times over before you say "Thats it.This is the way and we're going in".

Edit: I strayed with a few cuss words. Corrected it.
Regards,
Virendra

 

[Kunal Biswas]

 

[Virendra]

I remember that famous Nana Patekar song "Ek machhar bhi aadmi ko hijda bana deta hai".

I believe it will not be too far off the mark to say "Ek troll kisi bhi achhe bhale forum ko kachda ban deta hai". A single troll is enough to bring down a well intentioned, well structured debate.

I am no mod, so kindly excuse this bit of audacity on my part. Fellow members, please do not feed the trolls, stick to the topic and do not stoop to their level. It is like mud wrestling with a pig, after a while you realise while you are getting dirty, the pig is enjoying it.

Troll feeds on attention. Ignore?

 

[pmaitra]

A very similar thread and potentially redundant discussions: http://defenceforumindia.com/military-strategy/28509-land-link-afghanistan-way-india-out-south.html

 

[Tshering22]

that's the stark reality called "india occupied kashmir", it is a tragedy that india makes, the same is with Arunachal Predash, trying to distort original state of that parch of land on the part of india.

When you don't know about northeast, please refrain from barking and do care to ask someone from northeast region. There are quite a few here including myself.

 

[ejazr]

India wants to have direct access to Afganhistan, at a time US could not wait to get out of the country? So smart, I'm speechless! Right now India has in Pakistan a bufferzone for protection from the fierce Pashtun warrrirors to the north. Do you really want to have millions of fanatic taliban soliders marching down the alleys of new dehli, obliterating anything in their path? As I said so many times before, this is the age of islam awakening. The green relion is clearly on its quest to conque the world, everyone including China is trying to avoid it like pest. yet India, argurably the weakest country in the world on the per capital basis (1 Silver at the 2004 Olympics for a nation of 1.3 billion), wants to have its door wide open for the islamic invasion! i hope indian politicians are smarter than this.

Wow you really are cuckoo. What next, the martians are coming? You should read up on Indian history before commenting on Indian geo-politics. At the time of the partition, the NWFP province had voted to join Hindu majority India rather than Jinnah's Pakistan.

What Pashtuns want is independence and autonomy. And Pakistani army/ISI which uses Islam cynically for political purposes is the real problem. You can learn this reality and react accordingly. Or you can continue watching Fox news and keep that tin foil hat on to protect against mooozleeems and martians

 

[Tshering22]

India wants to have direct access to Afganhistan, at a time US could not wait to get out of the country? So smart, I'm speechless! Right now India has in Pakistan a bufferzone for protection from the fierce Pashtun warrrirors to the north. Do you really want to have millions of fanatic taliban soliders marching down the alleys of new dehli, obliterating anything in their path? As I said so many times before, this is the age of islam awakening. The green relion is clearly on its quest to conque the world, everyone including China is trying to avoid it like pest. yet India, argurably the weakest country in the world on the per capital basis (1 Silver at the 2004 Olympics for a nation of 1.3 billion), wants to have its door wide open for the islamic invasion! i hope indian politicians are smarter than this.

Some fierce. They got themselves cut into micro-sized cubes the last time they set their foot in eastern India 5 centuries ago. Came around 500,000 and went back less than 600. My community is one of the few who has had the ancestral privilege to have their remains processed as medieval age fertilizers for our terrace cultivation.

We have been dealing with this nightmare at its worst form since the weakest of our times in 1990s and hence we have acquired mastery on how to get these beasts sent packing. Now thanks to Pakistan, we have so much expertise in dealing with these two-legged beasts that once in combat operation, we don't need even the GOI's directions to tackle them. Our soldiers know when to send them to the 72 virgins.

We have dealt with those losers in Jammu and Kashmir long back. Since you Chinese are not used to terrorism for a long time, especially Jihad, you fear and worry about it.

Remember: ferocity and fanaticism are only a state of mind. If you deny this, then you clearly don't know about the three clans of Gurkhas, Lepchas and Bhutias.

 

[SADAKHUSH]

India wants to have direct access to Afganhistan, at a time US could not wait to get out of the country? So smart, I'm speechless! Right now India has in Pakistan a bufferzone for protection from the fierce Pashtun warrrirors to the north. Do you really want to have millions of fanatic taliban soliders marching down the alleys of new dehli, obliterating anything in their path? As I said so many times before, this is the age of islam awakening. The green relion is clearly on its quest to conque the world, everyone including China is trying to avoid it like pest. yet India, argurably the weakest country in the world on the per capital basis (1 Silver at the 2004 Olympics for a nation of 1.3 billion), wants to have its door wide open for the islamic invasion! i hope indian politicians are smarter than this.

I hope you are will find time to become much more smarter than you are now. What has the olympic medal tally to do with topic? It is time for you to do research on history of the region.