Small arms and Light Weapons

[ghost]

1 It's cheaper, the logistics chan is simpler and so on. So for example our military won't introduce two or more assault rifle types, but a single one, because there is at least minimum 80% commonality inbetween all variants.

2 It all depends on military, Polish Army considers using classical variants for infantry and special forces, while bullpup is considered more as a PDW for rear eschelon forces, armored fighting vehicles crews, for pilots, and of course for special forces for CQB.

3 Not known yet, however as far as we know, MSBS reliability is not worse than AK rifle.

4 Dunno but it seems to be very accurate and recoil is low.

5 Charging handle is in the upper part of upper receiver, it is non reciprocating charging handle type.

You can see charging handles of both classic and bullpup variant, actually upper receiver on both variants is exactly the same.

6 Yes, there are different variants of barrel designed, some are lighter some heavier, gas ejection can be regulated.

7 Like any modern assault rifle.

8 Sorry, I don't have exact data, but people involved in to project and testing says it's not worse than any other modern assault rifle.

9 Dunno but not much, MSBS is fully modular and disassmebling it for cleaning is very easy, for example taking off buttstock in classic variant is a matter of seconds.

10 Probably the same, AFAIK you can use any kind of muzzle device on it.

11 Yes, it is planned to have different callibers, just priority got the 5,56x45mm variant, there is planned 7,62x51mm variant, we also know about 12 gauge shotgun variant, other variants are also possible.

Here is 12 gauge shotgun variant of the MSBS, as you can see it's preatty much the same basic design as assault rifle, of course some changes in design are nececary.

12 Hard to say, there is a lot of secrecy about some aspects of the project.

What more I can say? I actually had opportunity to hold MSBS and several other assault rifle designs, and I must proudly say that MSBS in terms of ergonomics beat any competition hands down.

So basically the soldier issued with traditional design will keep the traditional design and one issued with bullpup will keep the bullpup.No use of its ability to switch design in service.

Have you ever handled tar 21 and m4 ,i think they will offer better ergnomics than this.

It is also not multicalibre,as of now.And if they introduce a different version with 7.62 then also it would not be considered as one.It should be able to fire different calibre from the same rifle with minor adjustment ,just as arx and mciws.

I was asking for the standard issued barrel,will it be heavy.

Is there a carbine version of it.

And you were claiming it to be superior to other assault rifle, but sorry to say i do not see any thing which makes it better,it is similar or probably inferior to arx,scar,cz bren 805 and ak 12,plus a lot more .I was expecting a lot from it since you built such a hype around it.But now you say in most of the parameter not worse than any modern assault rifle,i am disappointed.Desert tech rifle offer more than this

 

[Damian]

So basically the soldier issued with traditional design will keep the traditional design and one issued with bullpup will keep the bullpup.No use of its ability to switch design in service.

No, as I said, it depends on customer. Besides this, if a military at some points decide to use only bullpup it does not need to purchase a completely new assault rifle. The only thing they need to purchase are lower receivers.

Have you ever handled tar 21 and m4 ,i think they will offer better ergnomics than this.

I handled M4, nothing better there than in MSBS, besides I am perfectly aware that you are trolling right now.

It is also not multicalibre,as of now.And if they introduce a different version with 7.62 then also it would not be considered as one.It should be able to fire different calibre from the same rifle with minor adjustment ,just as arx and mciws.

Another argument taken out from your ass? The only thing you need to change in MSBS is barrel, bolt carrier group and eventually lower receiver with different magazine well. It is a multicalliber rifle, but as I said, priority have 5,56x45mm variant because this is the basic weapon calliber used by Polish military and this rifle is primary designed for Polish military.

I was asking for the standard issued barrel,will it be heavy.

It depends on customer, how it is that you people are incapable to understand such things? If customer says it's primary barrel type is heavy, then it will be heavy one. This is modularity aspect of a firearm.

Is there a carbine version of it.

Eh... Yes for ----s sake, how many time I need to repeat that each basic variant in any calliber, will have 4 subvariants, which is standard rifle, carbine, marksman rifle and magazine fed light machine gun.

And you were claiming it to be superior to other assault rifle but sorry to say i do not see any thing which makes it better,it is similar or probably inferior to arx,scar,cz bren 805 and ak 12,plus a lot more .I was accepting a lot from it since you built such a hype around it.But now you say in most of the parameter not worse than any modern assault rifle,i am disappointed.Desert tech rifle offer more than this

Typical troll rubbish who never held that assault rifle and could compare it to others.

Not to mention that you don't even understand proffesional and scientific terminology.

If someone says not worse, it means that in worst case performance won't be worse than other types of armaments considered as top line. But it also don't mean it will not be better.

As far as I can say in terms of ergonomics, MSBS beats hands down any competition, and I hold many AK rifles, AR15's, as well as G36 in my hands. I could also compare other rifles on photos, for example placement of fire selectors, charging handles and so one, other top line assault rifles are not better, and in many ways are archaic compared to MSBS.

But of course I completely understand that for amateur, a good weapon system need to fire lasers... jeeezz why I even waste my time?

 

[ghost]

No, as I said, it depends on customer. Besides this, if a military at some points decide to use only bullpup it does not need to purchase a completely new assault rifle. The only thing they need to purchase are lower receivers.



I handled M4, nothing better there than in MSBS, besides I am perfectly aware that you are trolling right now.



Another argument taken out from your ass? The only thing you need to change in MSBS is barrel, bolt carrier group and eventually lower receiver with different magazine well. It is a multicalliber rifle, but as I said, priority have 5,56x45mm variant because this is the basic weapon calliber used by Polish military and this rifle is primary designed for Polish military.



It depends on customer, how it is that you people are incapable to understand such things? If customer says it's primary barrel type is heavy, then it will be heavy one. This is modularity aspect of a firearm.



Eh... Yes for ----s sake, how many time I need to repeat that each basic variant in any calliber, will have 4 subvariants, which is standard rifle, carbine, marksman rifle and magazine fed light machine gun.



Typical troll rubbish who never held that assault rifle and could compare it to others.

Not to mention that you don't even understand proffesional and scientific terminology.

If someone says not worse, it means that in worst case performance won't be worse than other types of armaments considered as top line. But it also don't mean it will not be better.

As far as I can say in terms of ergonomics, MSBS beats hands down any competition, and I hold many AK rifles, AR15's, as well as G36 in my hands. I could also compare other rifles on photos, for example placement of fire selectors, charging handles and so one, other top line assault rifles are not better, and in many ways are archaic compared to MSBS.

But of course I completely understand that for amateur, a good weapon system need to fire lasers... jeeezz why I even waste my time?

Sir,no need to use foul languageif you still do need to ,please visit me


I have asked you about "standard issued" since you said msbs in service.Being an expert i hope u understand this term.

I have never said it is a bad rifle,infact it is a good rifle .Preciously because it is a whole range of small arms.But since you had created the hype that it is superior to others ,so my hopes were quite high.I was expecting it to set a new benchmarks in various fields,I apologize my mistake .

I agree i reacted little abruptly but not trolling,it's just that when you have extremely high expectation from something you tend to get a bit reactive.I think we should wait for some more time and let the details out.

You said 7.62 variant is in progress,i just replied by saying it is not present as of now.Plus you did not make it clear that will it be a completely new variant or something which can be easily converted with minimal change.So i said as of now it is not completely multicalibre as arx.

I have just stated a simple question that i think tar and m4 might have a better ergnomics than it,have you handled them?You could have just stated ur opinion instead of getting hyper.

I said that right now i will put it similar to arx,cz,and scar which are proven platform,and that maybe "maybe" it might be inferior to them,who knows time will tell.There is a difference between comparing and speculating ,what i was doing was "speculating" which is no way" comparing"

Yes i am amateur ,no one was born expert.You have to take the journey,which i am doing by asking you,but if you are on such a high ground that you look down upon people,then

On a lighter note,energy based weapon will be there in future,but maybe you would not.

 

[Damian]

I have asked you about "standard issued" since you said msbs in service.Being an expert i hope u understand this term.

As I said, it all depends on customer wishesh and concept of use.

Ok, let's say that Indian Army want a new rifle, Indian Military use both standard and bullpup designs, but need to pay more because they need to purchase different designs from different manufacturers. Now if they would purchase MSBS in all nececary variants, costs go down, simply because in the esence they would purchase a single rifle design from a single manufacturer.

This is advantage of the MSBS modularity concept, a true modularity compared to other designs.

I have never said it is a bad rifle,infact it is a good rifle .Preciously because it is a whole range of small arms.But since you had created the hype that it is superior to others ,so my hopes were quite high.I was expecting it to set a new benchmarks in various fields,I apologize my mistake .

But it do, in terms of modularity, ergonomics. But many informations about new design are classified, and rightly so, I am more than sure that some companies allready would want to copy MSBS.

You said 7.62 variant is in progress,i just replied by saying it is not present as of now.Plus you did not make it clear that will it be a completely new variant or something which can be easily converted with minimal change.So i said as of now it is not completely multicalibre as arx.

It will be exactly the same rifle, just with different lower receiver, bolt carrier group and barrel, siply because these parts need to be different for different callibers. If you would look at the ejection port in 5,56x45mm MSBS, you would see it's large enough for different calliber projectile casings. The weapon from the very beggining was designed with different callibers in mind.

However still I will repeat my self, MSBS is mainly designed for the Polish Military, which need to replace in front line units the AKM, AKMS and also kbk wz96 "Beryl" rifles, so AKM/AKMS goes to a long storage for reserves (some will be sold probably as these are in very good condition), "Beryl" will slowly send for reserve forces, and front line units will slowly convert to MSBS. This is a priority.

Because standard variants of the 5,56mm version are actually ready for mass production, wiating only for the final state trails, engineers are currently focusing mostly on new variants.

I said that right now i will put it similar to arx,cz,and scar which are proven platform,and that maybe "maybe" it might be inferior to them,who knows time will tell.There is a difference between comparing and speculating ,what i was doing was "speculating" which is no way" comparing"

Our special forces soldiers, that have opportunity to test various rifle designs compared MSBS to ACR, SCAR, HK416, and some other stuff, and as far as I know, they were delighted with MSBS, and this means something.

 

[ALBY]

Eventhough it was not produced in great numbers nor widely used,It was the favorite of SEALs during vietnam war.

 

[Damian]

e-RAPORT MSPO 3/2014 - MSBS-5,56 we francuskim przetargu - Altair Agencja Lotnicza

France shows big interest in MSBS project as it's potential replacement for FAMAS.

 

[Damian]

 

[militarysta]

Fist:

promo polish 5,56mm Beryl:



and very good video:
this video is showing two small arms factories:

old in Radom and new open in 2014. Worth to see and...to so how hight quality is proven by polish factory. This is one on sevral answer about polish Beryl cost and it's accuracy and other features

 

[Damian]

MSBS do amunicji 7,62 mm x 39 - Altair Agencja Lotnicza

This is a photoshop made photo that demonstrates how or less will look our MSBS rifle converted to 7,62x39mm ammo. The magazine used is a demonstrator of a new magazine for new Beryl variant for the same ammo.

The article says that yup, FB is working on new export variant of the MSBS for this type of ammunition, however note, the only new components of the rifle, will be lower receiver with new magazine well, new barrel, and new bolt carrier group, all designed for 7,62x39mm ammo.

There are other interesting news in article. To the end of 2014 the first around 200 rifles of information series for our army, and also to participate in final state trails. Work is also made on a civilian variants for US market, they might be presented on next SHOT show. And also there is very intense work performed on development of different callibers kits for weapon.

 

[jouni]

RK 95, Finnish service standard personal weapon. Developed from AK47 together with Israel. One of the last RUS tech weapons in FDF, NATO caliber is a joke in our forests. Finnish military police training voluntary youth for the use of the weapon.

http://sassik.livejournal.com/108866.html

 

[ALBY]

Rare piic oof Russian AKM and East german Mpi 72 seen together

 

[ALBY]

 

[ghost]

AK FAMILY OF RIFLES

AK 47

AK 47S

RPK

AKM

AKMS

RPK 74

AK 74

AK 74S

 

[ghost]

AK 74U

RPK 74M

AK 74M

AK 105

AK 12

 

[Kunal Biswas]

New Iranian 5.56mm rifle named Fateh:

 

[ghost]

 

[s002wjh]

New Iranian 5.56mm rifle named Fateh:

that look like XCR or ACR rifle? are those copy from that?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Black Rain Ordnance AK-47

In the very short amount of time since Black Rain Ordnance incorporated in 2009, the company has gathered a fair amount of attention in the highly competitive arena of AR-platfrom rifles. That attention has come due to the company producing high quality rifles that consider many variables important to the end shooter.

This year my focus was drawn to a new rifle that Black Rain is working on – the Freedom Fighter. This rifle is still a prototype, and the bosses tell me they still have a few modifications they want to make before it will pass their requirements for the market. One area of improvement is working on is to reduce some weight, as the rifle was a bit on the heavier side.

Black Rain has already produced quality rifles in .223 and .308 caliber (7.62x51mm), but the Freedom Fighter looks to carve a notch into another highly popular rifle market – the 7.62x39mm.

Now to be sure this is not your standard AK-47. The Freedom Fighter is not even an AK-47 with a whole bunch of tactical attachments. It has a similar appearance to the FN SCAR, with a taller receiver, and full length Picatinny rail on top. The hand guard has a complete quad rail for assessory attachments, and is also similar to the FN SCAR being taller than standard hand guards. The charging handle is just right to perform its function without snagging on items.

Having handled Black Rain rifles before, this one appears to follow in the pattern of another well made rifle. Although heavier than I would like, it was still a well balanced feel in my hands.

- See more at:
Black Rain Ordnance Freedom Fighter - The Firearm Blog
Black Rain Ordnance AK-47 PROTOTYPE Rifle – SHOT Show 2013 | HausofGuns.com | Gun and Gear Reviews, Hunting and Outdoor Products, Video

 

[Kunal Biswas]

They got 'Oil' ..

that look like XCR or ACR rifle? are those copy from that?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Not related to AR but still ..