SIG 716 assault rifle for Border Security Force.

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I have no idea why even most Army guys are gonna get AK's. It would've made sense to give those AK's to CRPF, BSF, and big city police Departments. Army Infantry all deserved something better.
 

vampyrbladez

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I have no idea why even most Army guys are gonna get AK's. It would've made sense to give those AK's to CRPF, BSF, and big city police Departments. Army Infantry all deserved something better.
We have the option for 36200 more SIG 716 Battle Rifles at the same price as the original consignment once the current order for 72400 guns has been completed.

Under the fast-tracked deal, the Indian Army will get 72,400 SIG rifles, chambered for the 7.62×51 mm round. India also has an option clause of reordering 50 per cent of the guns at the same price. “There may be a repeat order once all the rifles are delivered,” a top source in the Indian Army said.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/thepri...l-end-armys-long-quest-for-rifles/200792/amp/
 

vampyrbladez

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Interesting. What percentage of the total infantry will have SiG's, assuming we exercise that follow on option?
As per the recent skirmish I had with @binayak95 and @Gessler the 1.5 lakh front line troops will receive most of the SIG 716. Although in practice I believe they will also have sufficient quantities of AK 203s as well.

The rear echleon aka Infantry on rotation, COIN ops will get the AK 203s.

Military Police, Officers, Senior NCOs, Vehicle Crew, Heavy Weapons Crew, Radio Operators, Signals, etc will get the CAR 816 or equivalent AR 15 carbine. Off chance that the gun may be the JVPC but unlikely.
 

Flying Dagger

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As per the recent skirmish I had with @binayak95 and @Gessler the 1.5 lakh front line troops will receive most of the SIG 716. Although in practice I believe they will also have sufficient quantities of AK 203s as well.

The rear echleon aka Infantry on rotation, COIN ops will get the AK 203s.

Military Police, Officers, Senior NCOs, Vehicle Crew, Heavy Weapons Crew, Radio Operators, Signals, etc will get the CAR 816 or equivalent AR 15 carbine. Off chance that the gun may be the JVPC but unlikely.
Instead of Carbine we could have gone for Bullpup rifle like Israel and there may not be any need for Aks either in that case.

OFB can work on Aks based rifle for other armed service may be revive itself with 6.8 round to replace both Aks and traditional 5.45 round.
 

vampyrbladez

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Not what I asked bro. How did you come up with the number 1.5 lakh frontline troops and what is your definition of frontline?
Frontline = All who are part of a spearhead. The 1.5 lakh number is Active army numbers.

We have the option for 36200 more SIG 716 Battle Rifles at the same price as the original consignment once the current order for 72400 guns has been completed.



https://www.google.com/amp/s/thepri...l-end-armys-long-quest-for-rifles/200792/amp/

72,400 + 36,200 = 108,600 Sig 716i rifles. Thanks enough for Northern and parts of Western and Eastern Command.

Rest will get AK 203 which is ideal for Siachen and Thar desert combat conditions.
 

piKacHHu

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Not what I asked bro. How did you come up with the number 1.5 lakh frontline troops and what is your definition of frontline?
For that you have to ask our CDS Gen Rawat who coined this term while defending procurement of limited numbers of SIGs under FTP. As such no definition of "Front-Line" troops exist in IA parlance; it was coined to denote the infantry deployed at active frontiers like LOC, & LAC. Hence, the large chunk of these rifles will be consumed by divisions of Northern command and Eastern Command.

To achieve reasonable standardization and considering attrition aspect, we need atleast 1-2 lacs of additional SIGs.

Not only for BSF even for ITBP also, SIG 716i is the best choice IMO. I sincerely hope the MHA doesn't bungle it up for shoving 7.62 INSAS crap down the BSF throat on the name of "Atmanirbhar Bharat".
 

sthf

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Frontline = All who are part of a spearhead. The 1.5 lakh number is Active army numbers.
So medics and drivers? They too are a part of the "spearhead".

How can 1.5 lakh possibly be the "Active army numbers" in the standing army of 1 million plus? That is a very non descriptive description.
 

sthf

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For that you have to ask our CDS Gen Rawat who coined this term while defending procurement of limited numbers of SIGs under FTP. As such no definition of "Front-Line" troops exist in IA parlance; it was coined to denote the infantry deployed at active frontiers like LOC, & LAC. Hence, the large chunk of these rifles will be consumed by divisions of Northern command and Eastern Command.
Can you quote his exact words here? I do remember BiRa explaining why the number 72000 is what it is.

To achieve reasonable standardization and considering attrition aspect, we need atleast 1-2 lacs of additional SIGs.
Surely you must have done some kind of calculations before you wrote these numbers. Could you explain them to the folks here?
 

piKacHHu

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Can you quote his exact words here? I do remember BiRa explaining why the number 72000 is what it is.
Since you remember Gen Rawat's explanation regarding the number of SIGs, then why are asking me to produce his "exact words" ?
For your reference;


In January, Army chief General Bipin Rawat sought to streamline the process.

“My thinking is, since a state-of-the art assault rifle will cost about Rs 2 lakh each in the global market, let us issue these only to frontline infantry soldiers who confront the enemy armed only with their rifles,” Gen. Rawat explained just before Army Day (15 January).

“Let us provide a cheaper indigenous option to other soldiers for whom the (assault) rifle is not a primary weapon.”

Interestingly, his selected "state-of-the art rifle" AR pitched at less than 1 lac on current INR-$ conversion rates; seems like he was expecting SCAR-H but has to contend with DI SIGs (My deduction; can't produce source for it.)

Surely you must have done some kind of calculations before you wrote these numbers. Could you explain them to the folks here?
Sorry bro, I didn't do any calculations; had it been the case I would have published a legit article rather than responding to your post heavily loaded by my own preconceived notions under a fake name. It's damn forum not a peer reviewed journal publication.

I based my number on relative size of two commands; probably 2-3 lakhs. Out of these, I assumed 30-40% troops doing infantry role , hence conservatively I put it as 1-2 lakhs on lower side. Unfortunately, I couldn't dwell beyond that as I am not privy to the contract process involved in SIG procurement.
 
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sthf

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Sorry bro, I didn't do any calculations; had it been the case I would have published a legit article rather than responding to your post heavily loaded by my own preconceived notions under a fake name. It's damn forum not a peer reviewed journal publication.

I based my number on relative size of two commands; probably 2-3 lakhs. Out of these, I assumed 30-40% troops doing infantry role , hence conservatively I put it as 1-2 lakhs on lower side. Unfortunately, I couldn't dwell beyond that as I am not privy to the contract process involved in SIG procurement.
Its okay. I just wanted to know whether you put any thought in these posts or its simply whatever came to your mind.

Apparently you don't.

let us issue these only to frontline infantry soldiers who confront the enemy armed only with their rifles

https://theprint.in/defence/the-sig...he-replacement-for-indian-armys-insas/127622/
In case it is too cryptic for you and the genius above writing the words like "frontline", "spearhead", "active army", BiRa meant riflemen not the medics or the mortar men or drivers or machine gunners or cooks in an infantry battalion. They too are infantry.

The discourse on this forum really has gone to the dogs.
 

piKacHHu

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Its okay. I just wanted to know whether you put any thought in these posts or its simply whatever came to your mind.

Apparently you don't.



In case it is too cryptic for you and the genius above writing the words like "frontline", "spearhead", "active army", BiRa meant riflemen not the medics or the mortar men or drivers or machine gunners or cooks in an infantry battalion. They too are infantry.

The discourse on this forum really has gone to the dogs.
Good luck to you Mr. KnowItAll... Why are you indulging yourself in this thread with one-liner questions like an interview panelist if it's offending your common sense. Are you here for recruitment drive?

Will take care to not respond your deep-meaning questions in future !
 

sthf

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Good luck to you Mr. KnowItAll... Why are you indulging yourself in this thread with one-liner questions like an interview panelist if it's offending your common sense. Are you here for recruitment drive?

Will take care to not respond your deep-meaning questions in future !
Brilliant fact based rebuttal.

Of course it is offending my common sense. I am wondering why it is not hurting yours.

Oh right. Silly me.

There were 216 riflemen in an infantry battallion before IA switched back to 7.62x51. The projected TO&E is not known publicly to my knowledge.

These 216 riflemen will be issued Sig 716. Rest will either have 5.56 Carbines or the abomination that is AK-203 if the deal goes through.
 

vampyrbladez

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So medics and drivers? They too are a part of the "spearhead".

How can 1.5 lakh possibly be the "Active army numbers" in the standing army of 1 million plus? That is a very non descriptive description.
Including TA mobilisation, Yes!

That's what is immediately available for 1.2 mn Active + 960,000 Reserve component.

We are getting 10% of this army with Sig 716i.

Nearly same number get 96,000 CAR 816.

Rest get AK 203. Perfectly reasonable.

Even porters and tradesmen in Infantry Units are fighting men. It's like the USMC rifle company logo 'Every Marine a rifleman.'
 

vampyrbladez

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Brilliant fact based rebuttal.

Of course it is offending my common sense. I am wondering why it is not hurting yours.

Oh right. Silly me.

There were 216 riflemen in an infantry battallion before IA switched back to 7.62x51. The projected TO&E is not known publicly to my knowledge.

These 216 riflemen will be issued Sig 716. Rest will either have 5.56 Carbines or the abomination that is AK-203 if the deal goes through.
AK 203 is perfect for extreme weather conditions like Siachen or Thar desert.

https://soldiersystems.net/2018/07/16/general-staff-requirement-gsr-new-assault-rifle/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...2020/02/26/indias-ak-not-quite-an-ak-203/amp/
 

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