Should next-gen guns kill or wound? Army debates

Lions Of Punjab

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http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...r-wound-Army-debates/articleshow/51918370.cms

Should it be a rifle that "kills" the enemy soldier or terrorist? Or, should it merely "wound"? With the decade-long hunt for a new-generation assault rifle still nowhere near finalization, the Army's top generals will discuss this basic but critical weapon for infantry soldiers next week.

With the mega Rs 4,850 crore project for assault rifles with interchangeable barrels for conventional warfare as well as counterinsurgency operations being scrapped last year, the Army commanders' conference from April 25 to 30 will chalk out the roadmap ahead.

"It will focus on whether the Army should go in for a 5.56mm rifle, which generally incapacitates enemy soldiers, or a 7.62mm rifle that kills. The rifle calibre, range and desired weight are all issues that need to be resolved before new technical parameters or GSQRs (general staff qualitative requirements) are finalized for the fresh procurement case," said a source.

The debate is about the "quantum of lethality" required. As per the Army's experience, the 5.56mm rifle is considered better for conventional war since it generally injures an enemy soldier, which ties down at least two of his colleagues to carry him as well as hits general morale in the opposing force.

The 7.62mm rifle is preferred for counter-insurgency since the aim is to kill a terrorist at the first instance before he can unleash mayhem. "There are different arguments for each side. The lethality, of course, also depends on where a bullet hits," said an officer.


"The fact remains that all soldiers prefer the rugged 7.62mm AK-47s, which also have a higher rate of fire, than the indigenous 5.56mm INSAS (Indian small arms system) rifles for counterterrorism in J&K," he added.

But the Army's "over-ambitious" experiment to induct rifles with interchangeable barrels, with a 5.56 x 45mm primary barrel for conventional warfare and a 7.62 x 39mm secondary one for counter-terrorism, failed miserably.

As first reported by TOI in May last year, the proposed mega project was junked since the rifles on offer by armament firms like Colt (US), Beretta (Italy), Ceska (Czech Republic) and Israel Weapon Industries were not found suitable and cost-effective after extensive trials.


The jury is still out. The Army, on its part, wants a rifle that weighs around 3.5kg and has an effective range of almost 1 km, apart from being equipped with advanced night-vision devices, holographic reflex sights, laser designators, detachable under-barrel grenade launchers and the like.
 

Superdefender

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If our rifle only wounds, then enemy will face huge logistic burden on their parts. But they are not fools. If they realise that they are loosing the war because of helping most of the still living (wounded) soldiers, they can abandon serving them and fight as their country comes first. I will prefer killing, therefore decreasing enemy's number one by one. Best shot is head shot - one shot, one dead. Only for some special occasions, we can use the rifles that wound the target.
 

Superdefender

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If our rifle only wounds, then enemy will face huge logistic burden on their parts. But they are not fools. If they realise that they are loosing the war because of helping most of the still living (wounded) soldiers, they can abandon serving them and fight as their country comes first. I will prefer killing, therefore decreasing enemy's number one by one. Best shot is head shot - one shot, one dead. Only for some special occasions, we can use the rifles that wound the target.
 

jackprince

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If our rifle only wounds, then enemy will face huge logistic burden on their parts. But they are not fools. If they realise that they are loosing the war because of helping most of the still living (wounded) soldiers, they can abandon serving them and fight as their country comes first. I will prefer killing, therefore decreasing enemy's number one by one. Best shot is head shot - one shot, one dead. Only for some special occasions, we can use the rifles that wound the target.
That is the old concept. Now with advanced medical facility available and with dedicated medical corps in service with every modern Army, the no. of wounded will get the service and new blood will be flown in to replace them without much delay. Also, a dead soldier doesn't come back to fight again. Btw, you are also forgetting that Indian army will also face casualties in an exchange, too. War hardly ever is an onesided affair and a situation where assault rifles are used, is scarcely so.

Head shot is neigh impossible in a hot situation by common troopers. Even most of the spec ops guys too try for the bodymass.

However, the title of the article is BS. In fact the article itself is BS.

There're hundreds of parameters to be weighed when deciding between 5.56 and 7.62. Lethality and stopping power is only one aspect - albeit a very important one.

Take a look at these:

http://everydayprep.blogspot.in/2012/07/combat-barrier-penetration-ak-762-vs-ar.html


http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/12/daniel-zimmerman/ak-vs-ar-why-the-7-62x39s-time-has-come/
 

Mikesingh

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This is a silly debate by the army and is purely hypothetical. It is impossible to say whether a bullet will either kill or maim a person as it depends on the range of the target, where the bullet has hit the person and the protective gear worn by the enemy.

The best bet is to go in for a 5.56mm auto weapon with an effective range of 300m, with a fairly high rate of fire with laser designators combined with intrinsic night-vision sights. 5.56mm ammo will be lighter to carry meaning one can carry more ammo for the same weight compared to 7.62 ammo.

A 10kG loadout of 5.56 is about 660 rounds. 10kG of 7.62 is about 280 rounds (including magazines). So, logistically, you can transport MORE than twice the number of 5.56 rounds for the same weight!

However, accuracy at <300 meters is about equal. Beyond 300 meters, the 7.62 is superior. But this range of engagement is adequate in CI Ops, jungle warfare as well as fighting in built up areas. For engagement at greater ranges, LMGs / MMGs etc are employed.
 

Chinmoy

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http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...r-wound-Army-debates/articleshow/51918370.cms

Should it be a rifle that "kills" the enemy soldier or terrorist? Or, should it merely "wound"? With the decade-long hunt for a new-generation assault rifle still nowhere near finalization, the Army's top generals will discuss this basic but critical weapon for infantry soldiers next week.

With the mega Rs 4,850 crore project for assault rifles with interchangeable barrels for conventional warfare as well as counterinsurgency operations being scrapped last year, the Army commanders' conference from April 25 to 30 will chalk out the roadmap ahead.

"It will focus on whether the Army should go in for a 5.56mm rifle, which generally incapacitates enemy soldiers, or a 7.62mm rifle that kills. The rifle calibre, range and desired weight are all issues that need to be resolved before new technical parameters or GSQRs (general staff qualitative requirements) are finalized for the fresh procurement case," said a source.

The debate is about the "quantum of lethality" required. As per the Army's experience, the 5.56mm rifle is considered better for conventional war since it generally injures an enemy soldier, which ties down at least two of his colleagues to carry him as well as hits general morale in the opposing force.

The 7.62mm rifle is preferred for counter-insurgency since the aim is to kill a terrorist at the first instance before he can unleash mayhem. "There are different arguments for each side. The lethality, of course, also depends on where a bullet hits," said an officer.


"The fact remains that all soldiers prefer the rugged 7.62mm AK-47s, which also have a higher rate of fire, than the indigenous 5.56mm INSAS (Indian small arms system) rifles for counterterrorism in J&K," he added.

But the Army's "over-ambitious" experiment to induct rifles with interchangeable barrels, with a 5.56 x 45mm primary barrel for conventional warfare and a 7.62 x 39mm secondary one for counter-terrorism, failed miserably.

As first reported by TOI in May last year, the proposed mega project was junked since the rifles on offer by armament firms like Colt (US), Beretta (Italy), Ceska (Czech Republic) and Israel Weapon Industries were not found suitable and cost-effective after extensive trials.


The jury is still out. The Army, on its part, wants a rifle that weighs around 3.5kg and has an effective range of almost 1 km, apart from being equipped with advanced night-vision devices, holographic reflex sights, laser designators, detachable under-barrel grenade launchers and the like.
Give this Journo a...........

bear-dick-punch.jpg


from my side....................
 

Immanuel

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Well 6.5 or 6.8 are ideal for Infantry/SF and COIN, they are only slightly heavier than the 5.56 and thus allow enough ammo to be carried. 5.56 is ideal for Police and law enforcement. .45 is ideal for CQB/SMG. 7.62*51 are ideal for paramiliary for static defenses (BSF/ITBP/SSB) with plenty of ammo lying around, they have the kill power. These same rounds are ideal for the infantry's squad snipers and .50 cals are ideal for platoon scout snipers.

The solution is to have various rounds for different units.
 

Bornubus

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MCIWS is the answer.

Even US troops including 75 th Rangers and SAS prefer 7.62 in Afghanistan thus large number of SCAR H and Hk 417 inducted into their service in quick succession.
 

Immanuel

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MCIWS is the answer.

Even US troops including 75 th Rangers and SAS prefer 7.62 in Afghanistan thus large number of SCAR H and Hk 417 inducted into their service in quick succession.
True, they need to speed up trials and induct it asap.
 

Immanuel

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MCIWS is the answer.

Even US troops including 75 th Rangers and SAS prefer 7.62 in Afghanistan thus large number of SCAR H and Hk 417 inducted into their service in quick succession.
SCAR-H also in use with SFF. Any pics of HK 417 in service with Para-SF?
 

su35

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Well 6.5 or 6.8 are ideal for Infantry/SF and COIN, they are only slightly heavier than the 5.56 and thus allow enough ammo to be carried.
I would have preferred to equips Sf and strike corps with 6.8mm at last. Many times they have to work behind enemy lines, once the ammo gets over they struck in awkward situation to leave their rifle and use left enemy. 6.8 is yet to be widely used
 

Immanuel

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I would have preferred to equips Sf and strike corps with 6.8mm at last. Many times they have to work behind enemy lines, once the ammo gets over they struck in awkward situation to leave their rifle and use left enemy. 6.8 is yet to be widely used
For Domestic ops the 6.8/ 6.5mm is ideal even for SF, however very true when you say its better for SF to operate the 7.62 AK round behind enemy lines, being the most widely used round, it brings a certain amount of mystery when used in 'black or covert ops'. For all the enemy knows anyone could be responsible for the said incident.
 

su35

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For Domestic ops the 6.8/ 6.5mm is ideal even for SF, however very true when you say its better for SF to operate the 7.62 AK round behind enemy lines, being the most widely used round, it brings a certain amount of mystery when used in 'black or covert ops'. For all the enemy knows anyone could be responsible for the said incident.
Quite true, it is best to use AK series gun behind the enemy lines. AK103 may be the best option, Which calibre of Tavor is used by SF
 

Screambowl

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nothing new...

accroding to drdo INSAS was basically to wound ... this debate is going on past 16 years
 

VaghaDeva

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This is fucking stupid of course they should kill them what if they survive and come back later to kill us you can't expect them to just get up walk away as if nothing ever happened after being wounded they can also be treated for their wounds. moreover they deserve to die their third generation ghadars and reds arent they?
 
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Bornubus

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SCAR-H also in use with SFF. Any pics of HK 417 in service with Para-SF?
I've seen pics of SFF with SCAR but there are guys (army background) who claim 10 th Para used it with joint SF exercise with Afghanistan.

Could be Afghan,i am not sure.
 

Bornubus

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nothing new...

accroding to drdo INSAS was basically to wound ... this debate is going on past 16 years
Even M4 uses similar round of INSAS but M4 is full auto.

Only M 16A2 (3 round burst) used by USMC is similar to INSAS.

MCIWS will rectify all these anomalies and should be inducted ASAP.

BC yahan ek rifle develop karne man decade lag lag jate hain.
 

Screambowl

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Even M4 uses similar round of INSAS but M4 is full auto.

Only M 16A2 (3 round burst) used by USMC is similar to INSAS.

MCIWS will rectify all these anomalies and should be inducted ASAP.

BC yahan ek rifle develop karne man decade lag lag jate hain.

politics .. every new officers has something new in head.

few platforms bc unhi ko upgrade karte rehte hai .. 100 baar..

Better to reverse engineer!!
 

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