Saudi Arabia: Ideological and Financial Epicentre of Jihad?

Rage

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Actually, I think the essence of what Jethmalani said cannot be disputed. Most of what he said was true. But he did sound rather indiscreet considering the Saudi envoy was around...

But, thinking of it from another way, maybe it is about time we showed the Saudis what we really think of them...

What does everybody else think ???
What we generally think of the Saudis does not have to come at the cost of sweeping, offensive, generalized, indiscreet rhetorical puts at the the Gods of another religion.

Considering a lot of Saudi dignitaries are extended members of the royal family, diplomatic, political and economic imperatives would suggest that we tread more carefully. The Saudis don't tend to forget these 'slights' that easily.
 

mattster

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What we generally think of the Saudis does not have to come at the cost of sweeping, offensive, generalized, indiscreet rhetorical puts at the the Gods of another religion.

Considering a lot of Saudi dignitaries are extended members of the royal family, diplomatic, political and economic imperatives would suggest that we tread more carefully. The Saudis don't tend to forget these 'slights' that easily.
I understand your point about tact, but Jethalmani is a former minister and a private citizen...is he not ?? He has a right to express his opinion, and it should not reflect on the stance of the current government.

Also why are Saudis so important to Indians - I think India can get oil from anywhere. Other than some manual labor jobs, the Saudis have very little to offer India in terms of investment or anything.

It has been reported endlessly about Saudi funding of terror. These guys are trouble makers and should be watched carefully by any country.

What is so special about these guys anyway, that requires Indians to show so much deference.

Most of the Saudi royal family are like any royal family - a sad bunch of punkass rich kids.
 

Rage

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I understand your point about tact, but Jethalmani is a former minister and a private citizen...is he not ?? He has a right to express his opinion, and it should not reflect on the stance of the current government.

Also why are Saudis so important to Indians - I think India can get oil from anywhere. Other than some manual labor jobs, the Saudis have very little to offer India in terms of investment or anything.

It has been reported endlessly about Saudi funding of terror. These guys are trouble makers and should be watched carefully by any country.

What is so special about these guys anyway, that requires Indians to show so much deference.

Most of the Saudi royal family are like any royal family - a sad bunch of punkass rich kids.
Jethmalani is a private citizen, but he was speaking in capacity as president of the All India Sr. Advocates Association, a semi-official organization of legal and paralegal professionals with government mandate, that caters to the needs of senior barristers throughout the country, and organizes awards ceremnonies, etc. on behalf of the government for jurisprudence, civil, corporate and criminal law for advocates throughout India, and in particular for commercial law to NRI's living outside the country and those that work for the resolution of commercial law disputes between India and other countries.

After the statement, Veerapa Moily and Pres. Patil had to go into damage control mode to soothe the angst of the Saudi emissary. Obviously, such statements they felt would have impacted relations deeply.

India has much more at stake with Saudi than oil and a few manual labour jobs. Bilateral trade for instance stood at some 16 billion dollars in 2006, and is expected to more than double by 2010, with most of the increase coming from joint ventures in telecommunications, pharmaceuticals, health services, information technology, biotechnology, energy and financial services.

Among Arab countries, Saudi Arabia ranks second in terms of FDI. And after the signing of this landmark deal, Indian companies setup 106 joint ventures with Saud companies with a global investment of $445 million in the last few months of 2006.

India is also in the process of negotiating a Free Trade Agreement (FTA) in goods with the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC), of which Saudi Arabia is a (if not the) prominent member.
 

mattster

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After the statement, Veerapa Moily and Pres. Patil had to go into damage control mode to soothe the angst of the Saudi emissary. Obviously, such statements they felt would have impacted relations deeply.

India has much more at stake with Saudi than oil and a few manual labour jobs. Bilateral trade for instance stood at some 16 billion dollars in 2006, and is expected to more than double by 2010, with most of the increase coming from joint ventures in telecommunications, pharmaceuticals, health services, information technology, biotechnology, energy and financial services.

Indians are such bloody pussies !!.

Do you guys know how many American senators and congressman have said even worse things about the Saudis. Every word of what Jethlamani said has been said by many American authors and experts.

Do you see the state department of the US running to make an apology for every freaking statement made by a sitting US Senator.

India is not such a powerless country that the President has to go running with an apology for every comment made by an ex-minister.

As for that 16 billion trade - how much of that is India buying oil from Saudi ??

Screw those f*cking stone-age Saudis.

The reason they are investing in India is because they are looking for a good return on their money, and also because they need to spread out their investments in various parts of the world ....its not based on any special affinity for India.
 

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Its a different matter to express one's views in Parliament/Congress than to directly confront the Saudi representative with it.

Even Indian politicians, journalists, and ministers have said several "controversial" things regarding religion in general and Islam in particular over the years. Nothing unusual about it.
 

Rage

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Indians are such bloody pussies !!.

Do you guys know how many American senators and congressman have said even worse things about the Saudis. Every word of what Jethlamani said has been said by many American authors and experts.

Do you see the state department of the US running to make an apology for every freaking statement made by a sitting US Senator.

India is not such a powerless country that the President has to go running with an apology for every comment made by an ex-minister.

As for that 16 billion trade - how much of that is India buying oil from Saudi ??

Screw those f*cking stone-age Saudis.

The reason they are investing in India is because they are looking for a good return on their money, and also because they need to spread out their investments in various parts of the world ....its not based on any special affinity for India.
WTF are you goin' bonkers for? You asked for the reason why Jethmalani couldn't go shooting his mouth, and I gave it to you. India is not the United States, clown, to go around bandying semantic statements without repercussion.

Screw your f&cking yankee doodle-doos and their ridonkulous statements!


As for the trade, the majority of it is oil, which ain't so easy to come by when your crimped for central Asian access.

Don't make me repeat what I said to you before:

"Bilateral trade..is expected to more than double by 2010, with most of the increase coming from joint ventures in telecommunications, pharmaceuticals, health services, information technology, biotechnology, energy and financial services."

Yeh, the Saudi royal family are a bunch of sad chavs, but they're also the family that run the fiefdom. And they're cowboys over slights like this. So play nice we will, 'specially when the interests of so many of our countrymen are at stake.

Piss them off, over what, a f&cking statement? Not like it's gonna be changin' the tangibles anytime soon.

Do me a favour and go back to read what I said, wspecially this part:

".....after the signing of this landmark deal, Indian companies setup 106 joint ventures with Saud companies with a global investment of $445 million in the last few months of 2006."

"India is also in the process of negotiating a Free Trade Agreement (FTA) in goods with the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC), of which Saudi Arabia is a (if not the) prominent member."

Then take a course in politics, and reevaluate the $hit you've typed.
 

GokuInd

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An excerpt from an interview with Shashi Tharoor, Minister of State for External Affairs:

[...]
With the GCC splitting, the India-GCC FTA now seems a far-off dream. What are your views?

The canvas of the relationship between India and the Gulf countries is not only organic but also comprehensive and dynamic. FTAs are very heavily discussed agreements, which in various cases have taken time. The India-GCC FTA is no exception. We have already completed two rounds of discussion on this FTA and expect further movement. The fact that the discussions on this subject are underway points to the fact that this is not a far-off dream. Also, the GCC, as a body, is evolving. They are dealing with several issues among their members, including currency, taxation etc. In view of this fact we may expect the India-GCC FTA discussions to evolve further. Also, since the GCC is extremely important as our trading and business partner, we expect this FTA to further boost this relationship and develop new facets.

The Arab views India as a new partner. However, there is no concrete proof of their investments here. How do you propose to change this attitude?

It is incorrect to say there is no Arab investment in India . There is, and the UAE alone has invested some $45 billion in our markets.
We are working with Indian trade and industry to promote investment flows. For example, in February 2002, the government divested 74% out of its 100% equity in Paradeep Phosphate Limited (PPL) to Zuari Maroc Phosphate Limited (ZMPL), a joint venture company with a 50-50 equity share between the Zuari India Limited (ZIL) of Birla Group, India and the Office Cherifian Phosphates (OCP) of Morocco . The 74% equity of Paradeep Phosphate Limited, sold to Zuari Maroc Phosphate Limited, was valued at Rs 151.72 crore.
[...]

India-GCC free-trade agreement is not a far-off dream

This implies heavy investment activities coming from the Arab world - naturally the KSA would account for a large chunk.

Though as of now, it seems the negotiations concerning the India-GCC FATA have come to a deadlock over issues concerning specific sectors.

FTA with Gulf council on the backburner as talks put off
 

ppgj

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Paper no. 3571 28-Dec-2009

‘MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD’ – An ideological Protectorate of Saudi Arabia?

By Ramashray Upadhyay

‘Muslim Brotherhood’ (MB), an Egypt-born Islamist organization founded for launching Jihad against the infidels in general and Christian West in particular has been an ideological protectorate of Saudi Arabia for over half a century.

It was founded in 1928 by an ultra Islamist reformer school teacher Al Hussain Banna(1906-1949) who strongly believed in Wahhabist interpretation of militant Jihad. Deeply disturbed with the collapse of Ottoman Empire in 1924 followed by the end of Caliphate system of Islamic Government, the Treaty of Jeddah in 1927 between the Saudi King and British Empire further stirred his anti-West Islamist mindset.

The Treaty in which the Saudi King agreed to hold back his forces from attacking and harassing the neighbouring British Protectorates and in return the British Empire recognized the Saudi sovereignty over the region what was then known as Kingdom of Hizaj and Nejd was regarded by Banna as surrender to a Christian power. Accordingly, he formed this organization with a view to mobilize the Muslims of the world by preaching puritanical Islamist movement of political Islam for launching Jihad against the infidels.

Dedicated to the credo - The Prophet is our leader. Qur'an is our law. Jihad is our way. Dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope", Muslim Brotherhood gradually emerged as one of the internationally known militant organizations. Although, Muslim Brotherhood differed with Saudi Arabia over the latter’s business relation with Christian West particularly USA, the common ideological Wahhabi link between the two brought them closer to each other. In fact in mid nineteen fifties when the Naseer regime of Egypt cracked down the MB activists due to their suspected attempt on his assassination, thousands of their members fled to neighbouring contries including Saudi Arabia. Since then the Saudi King used them against Nasserism and also funded them for their independent faculty in the Islamic University in Medina.

With financial help from Saudi Kingdom, MB emerged as an Islamist force for chalking out Jihadi strategy against the infidels and became an organization of international concern due to its global network and close connection with various violent Jihadi groups like al-Jihad and al-Gama'at al-Islamiyya in Egypt, HAMAS in Palestine and Islamist terrorist groups in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh and India.

Since violence is central to the history and culture of Islamists, many fundamentalist Muslim establishments in different parts of the world including Jamaat-e-Islami Hind and Students Islamic Movement of India and Islamic Chhatra Shibir of Bangladesh also drew inspiration from MB. Even Turkey’s Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan drew inspiration from Muslim Brotherhood and said, “Mosques are our barracks, minarets our bayonets, domes our helmets, the believers our soldiers” (Pioneer dated December 6, 2009). Apparently these slogans approve the relentless shift in the focus of Islamists from the five pillars of the faith – Kalama, Namaj, Roza, Zakat and Haz to the obligation and rewards of Jihad.

Historically, the term Muslim Brotherhood is rooted to the Quranic concept of ‘Umma’ which originally meant community but later referred to the followers of Prophet Mohammad. In fact the Prophet in his last pilgrimage address had said, ‘Oh ye people, a Muslim is another Muslim’s brother and thus all Muslims are brothers among themselves’ (M.R.A. Baig, The Muslim Dilemma, 1974, p.12). Although, moderate Islamic scholars interpreted this address as spiritual message of the Prophet for creating brotherly fraternity among the warring Arab tribes, over the years, the politically ambitious Islamists twisted its meaning for uniting the Muslims against the infidels for self-seeking political gains.

In the early years of twentieth century even Saudi ruler Abd al Aziz had organised Ikhwan (brotherhood) movement by spreading militant Wahhabi Islam among the Bedouin Arab tribes for fighting against the different Muslim warlords in Arabian Peninsula and to consolidate his rule in the region.

Despite the Quranic concept of brotherly relation among all the followers of Islam, the Muslim world always remained divided due to their political and material ambitions. Those who interpreted Islamic scriptures by separating Islam from social and political life of the Muslims from spiritual life always faced confrontation with the conservative Muslims dedicated to the creed that ‘Islam is the complete way of life’. De-facto inimical relation between two Muslim countries namely Saudi Arabia and Egypt may be an example.

Al Hussain Banna was profoundly upset with the effects of westernization and rise of secularism in the kingdom of Egypt under the influence of the British. He felt that such influence was detrimental to the traditional values of Islam. Althogh, he was inspired with the success of Wahhabism under the temporal leadership of Saudi kingdom; he nursed reservation against the pro-West policy of Saudi Kingdom particularly after the Treaty of Jeddah and its business with western countries particularly after the discovery of oil in the region. Thus, when he founded Muslim Brotherhood with immediate objective to bring down the Government of Egypt and then preach ultra Wahhabism to mobilize the Muslims of the world for launching violent Jihad against the infidels in general and west in particular he became very popular among the Muslim orthodoxy in the region.

Supplementing the traditional Islamic education among the Muslim youths with his Wahhabist ideology and hate-waste campaign Banna gave specific emphasis on Jihadi training . By interpreting the trilogy of Islam namely Quran, Hadith and Sharia as a strategy for establishment of Islamist power all over the world he like Maulana Wahhab, the founder of Wahhabism was also responsible for turning the five pillars of the faith – Kalama, Namaj, Roza, Zakat and Haz subservient to violent Jihad.

Concerned with the growing popularity and assertiveness of the MB and prevailing rumours of its plot to stage a coup against the Egyptian monarchy, the Prime Minister disbanded it in 1948 which led to his assassination. In return Al Banna was also assassinated in 1949.

Against the ongoing turbulent situation in Egypt, Gamal Abdel Naseer became president of Egypt in 1954 after plotting a bloodless coup against the monarchy and gained immense popularity when he heralded a new period of modernization and socialist reform in his country. Reacting against the new secular regime the MB members declared it un-Islamic. However, when they were suspected behind the attempted assassination of Nasser, the Government of Egypt began their mass arrests and persecution thousands of MB activists fled to neighbouring countries including oil rich Saudi Arabia.

Initially, the Saudi King was hesitant to give them shelter as he was aware of the Jihadi potential of the Muslim Brotherhood which could be a constant irritant and source of danger to his pro-West monarchy. However, at the behest of the World Muslim League, which was created by Saudi Arabia for promotion of its Wahhabi hegemony over the Muslim world and the Saudi elites to convinced the Saudi King that Naseer was misusing Al Azhar University in Cairo to dilute Wahhabism by internationalising his own concept of Pan-Arab Nationalism and was also preaching that Islam was compatible to socialism.

Ever since the rise of Nasser inspired Arab nationalism and his left wing leaning following nationalization of Suez Canal, the pro-West Saudi Kingdom with a view to keep their regime intact closely watched the anti-Nasser activities of the MB and therefore courted them seriously. Accordingly, the Saudi King with an objective to counter Nasserism funded the MB members for establishing their faculty in the Islamic University of Medina and also allowed them to propagate in various public forum that communism and socialism were totally antithetical to Islam. Since then the MB maintained very good relation with royal family and became its ideological protectorate. Saudi Monarchy’s financial and ideological support to MB worked as catalyst in making the organisation very popular among the Muslim youths and students all over the Muslim world.

Islamic University of Medina is known to be the centre from where MB teachers are launching targeted campaign among a significant section of Muslim students from different parts of the world resulting in the prevailing ‘political activism’ among them. Thus, taking advantage of their position in this university where “approximately 80% of the 6,000 enrolled students are international students from all over the world” (Wikipedia the free encyclopaedia), the MB established branches in “over 70 countries all over the world, including: Saudi Arabia, Algeria, Tunisia, Sudan, Indonesia, the Philippines, Britain, Switzerland, Lebanon, Pakistan, Morocco, France, India, Jordan, Nigeria, Bangladesh, and the United States”.

Although, it has been an open secret that Saudi Arabia promoted MB with its financial power, it tries to maintain a safe distance from them to show the world that it has nothing to do with this Egypt-born organization. But factually, in the absence of modern education and knowledge of foreign languages to Wahhabi Ulema, the Saudi Kingdom has been using qualified and well traveled MB leaders not only in dealing with modern world but also in asserting its leadership in Muslim world.

Moreover, the royal family after placing the qualified MB activists in the faculty of Islamist University of Medina allowed a cross-fertilisation of Islamist ideas between the exiled MB members and the austere teachings of Wahhabi Ulema which had gradually become an ideologically dominant religio-cultural force in Muslim world. The recorded history of MB “working under the doctrine of concealment (Kitman)” (Rachel Enherenfeld) to create a global Islamist state also suited the royal family to satisfy the Wahhabists of Saudi society. Even though, Saudi kingdom is an USA ally, the Wahhabi society of Saudi Arabia are happy with MB for mobilizing even the western educated Muslim youths for Jihad against the infidels. “Wahhabism, which R. James Woolsey, former CIA Director identified as “IslamoNazi” ideology, may turn out to be the new emissaries carrying the fanatical Wahhabi creed that is bound to advance the MB agenda in the U.S.” (Ibid.)

“Wherever the MB operates, it engages in subversion and proselytization”. (Dr. Rachel Enherenfeld in frontpagemag.com on December 27, 2005). Due to its violent political vision which recommends establishment of a totalitarian Islamist empire that denies all political and religious freedom by terrorism, subversion and insurgency, it is also known as an Islamo-Fascist movement. Advocating the use of terrorism as means of advancing its agenda of global Islamic domination, it emerged as the largest popular radical movement in the Islamist world and attracted not only leading Islamist intellectuals like Osama bin Laden and others but also well qualified Muslim youths who are now involved with various Islamist terrorist groups operating in different parts of the world particularly in Europe, USA and South Asian countries.

Today, “The MB is the fountainhead from which Sunni terrorist organizations such as Al-Qaeda, Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Gamaat Islamiyyah, Hizb-ut-Tahrir, and the Abu Sayyaf group have sprung. Their ties to the MB are clearly evident from their identical strategic agenda” (Dr. Rachel Enherenfeld in frontpagemag.com on December 27, 2005). Inspired with the doctrine of the MB, Osama bin Laden of Al Qaida formed the International Islamic Front of Jihad against the Jews and Crusaders in January 1998 and mobilized the Muslim youths from different Islamist establishments of the world particularly from Afghanistan, Pakistan and Bangladesh. In an article ‘Jihad against non-Muslim is obligatory’ (No. 2085 dated October 17, 2008) in a Muslim Brotherhood website (Ikhwanweb :: The Muslim Brotherhood Official English Website) it is argued that “a Muslim can come closer to Allah by halting all non-Muslims –Christians, Jews, atheists, or polytheists – and by waging Jihad against them in any possible manner”.

It is said that Maulana Maududi, the founder of Jamaat-e-Islami in India maintained close links with the Muslim Brotherhood. "Both organizations still consider themselves branches of the same movement. At times the Muslim Brotherhood even recognized Maududi as the legal successor to its ideologists al-Banna and Sayed Qutb."(The British, the Middle East and Radical Islam – Kabbalah, America and Mystery Babylon, Rapture, Maitreya).

Saudi Arabia may deny its relation with MB but it can not escape from the folly of allowing them to establish an independent faculty where they taught its education theory –“Islamisation of society and knowledge”. This refer to “its strategic vision and plan that a minority Muslim group infiltrates, through legitimate legal processes, a society’s majority secular institutions, starting with its universities. Over time, “Islamized” Muslim and non-Muslim university graduates enter the nation’s workforce, including its civil service sectors. From there, those “Islamized” graduates are poised to subvert a host society’s law enforcement branches, intelligence community, military branches, and foreign services”. (Dr. Rachel Enherenfeld in frontpagemag.com on December 27, 2005). Had Saudi Kingdom not placed the MB activists in Islamic University of Medina, some modern educated Muslim youths might not have followed the militant course of Jihad and joined the Islamist terrorist groups operating in different countries including India.

During an international conference of jurists on terrorism held in Delhi on November 21, 2009, a senior jurist and former Union Law Minister Ram Jethmalani called Maulana Wahhab of eighteenth century an ‘evil man’ ideologically responsible for on going Islamist terrorism in the world. He also urged upon Indian Government to dissociate itself in its fight against terrorism from countries that preach Wahhabism. Saudi ambassador to India Faisal-al-Trad who was present in the audience walked out of the conference hall in protest against the remark of Jethmalani. Although, the ambassador returned to the conference after persuasion by the Law Ministry representative on the plea that it was not the stand of Government of India, can Saudi Government deny that MB’s faculty in Islamic University of Medina was without the approval of Saudi Monarchy?

Muslim Brotherhood which continues to remain the ideological protectorate of Saudi Arabia is known to have played an important role in the prevailing political activism as we see today among a significant section of Muslim students and youths.

(The author can be reached at e-mail [email protected])

‘MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD’ – An ideological Protectorate of Saudi Arabia?
 

ejazr

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Mr Upadhyay really needs to get an update on his knowledge in the middle east and saudi arabia in particular and the US Foreign policy in that area. Without understanding the US/West foreign policy and their liniency (even support) of these groups, you will not develop a complete understanding of the events there.

Does he know that the organisation "muslim brotherhood" is banned in Saudi Arabia? Does he know that it was under the behest of US and other western countries that used the Ikhwaan (the arabic tranalstion) to further their anti-Communist goals in muslim countries.

If Jamaat-Islami in Pakistan and MB in Egypt are what they are today, they are because of direct help of ofcourse Saudi, Pakistan and American backing to counter communist movements in the ME area. Without their financial and intelligence backing of these countries and their allies, these groups would be no where as powerful as they are today. When Egypt turned towards the Soviets and was cracking down on MB activists at the same time. Saudi Arabia being the long trusted ally of the Americans went on to harbour anti-Egyption regime factions most prominet of them being the MB activists. Amercian foreign policy of appeasing, supporting and even arming these fringe-fanatic groups is equally to blame as is Saudi policy of supporting these groups for their anti-Communist agenda.

This is one of the reasons why KSA still is the bigged reciepeint of American military hardware which required congressional approval.

Thirty years ago, these groups who use the name of "Jihad" to justify terrorism were no where insight and thirty years hence they would probably be in history books alone.

Like I have said before, the main ideolgoical issue is with those groups that justify using religion for politcal purposes. The main ideologues being Syed Qutb from Egypt or Maududi in Pakistan. The wahabbi or salafi school of thought itself (which may be bigoted and extremely conservative) does not promote a goal to establish an "Islamic" state.

It would be more accurate to call such people Qutubists or Muadudists than wahabbis. And in this ideological front, the much maligned wahabbis actually have similar interests i.e. they rightly condemn and denounce the ideology of Qutb and Maududi. On the other hand, OBL, MB and Al Qaeda ideologues denounce these very Wahabbi ulemas as "kafirs".

If you want to read articles on issues related to terrorism justified by using Islam for politcal purposes by an Indian writer, I suggest Praveen Swami who is far better informed on this IMO. He writes mostly for the Hindu and gives some pretty insightful info.

This should be a relevant site for Mr. Upadhyay to get some much needed information
The Wahhabi Myth - Salafism, Wahhabism, Qutbism
 

ejazr

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While most people may not know, I suggest a read of the Delhi Declaration of which a good analysis is provided below. A major achivement of the UPA in delinking Saudi Arabia's relationship with India from Pakistan and providing it an independant standing as an emerging power.

INDIA – SAUDI ARABIA: THE STRATEGIC SIGNIFICANCE OF THE DELHI DECLARATION (JANUARY 2006)

The points of intersts being
* Providing long term stable supplies of crude oil. Along with co-operation in processed oil prodcuts. Trade and investemetns in join ventures across health, education, toursim, cultural and IT sectors.
* Anti-Terroism co-operation MoU and intelligence sharing
* Defence co-operation which may increase in time but already iincludes
* Bilateral military cooperation boosted by high-level military/intelligence exchanges, joint training of troops and use of training courses in India. Infact, some Saudi officers have attended Defence colleges in India as well on exchange programs
* Indian Navy paying visits to Saudi Arabia both in the Red Sea and the Gulf and co-operating in anti-piracy efforts around Yemen.

The Saudis tend to work behind the secnes and are conservative by nature, but there is credible info that it was Saudi influence among others that forced Pakistan to change its stance on 26/11 Mumbai attacks. The Saudis were one of the first countries were a face-to-face discussion on 26/11 evidence was shared.
Saudi intelligence chief discusses 26/11 with NSA

And afaik there has not been any terrorist attacks by arabs in India. Except maybe for a brief sting in Kashmir were Arab Afghans who had no where else to go were funnelled there. But even there the majority as always have been Pakistanis, or Pakistani based groups. Other groups like the ULFA and others in NE although having nothing to with relgion were funded clandestinely by Pakistani based intelligence outfits as well.

Lets keep an objective attitude and understand what geo-politics in the right context and so that we can correctly identify governments that can align our Interests with theirs.
 

mattster

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WTF are you goin' bonkers for? You asked for the reason why Jethmalani couldn't go shooting his mouth, and I gave it to you. India is not the United States, clown, to go around bandying semantic statements without repercussion.

Screw your f&cking yankee doodle-doos and their ridonkulous statements!


As for the trade, the majority of it is oil, which ain't so easy to come by when your crimped for central Asian access.

Don't make me repeat what I said to you before:

"Bilateral trade..is expected to more than double by 2010, with most of the increase coming from joint ventures in telecommunications, pharmaceuticals, health services, information technology, biotechnology, energy and financial services."

Yeh, the Saudi royal family are a bunch of sad chavs, but they're also the family that run the fiefdom. And they're cowboys over slights like this. So play nice we will, 'specially when the interests of so many of our countrymen are at stake.

Piss them off, over what, a f&cking statement? Not like it's gonna be changin' the tangibles anytime soon.

Do me a favour and go back to read what I said, wspecially this part:

".....after the signing of this landmark deal, Indian companies setup 106 joint ventures with Saud companies with a global investment of $445 million in the last few months of 2006."

"India is also in the process of negotiating a Free Trade Agreement (FTA) in goods with the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC), of which Saudi Arabia is a (if not the) prominent member."

Then take a course in politics, and reevaluate the $hit you've typed.

when you are buying oil from a foreign country and paying them the market rate - that means that you also have some leverage because you are the buyer. Oil can be gotten from many countries that are not all in the middle-east.

Its not like they are selling you oil at a discount, like they do for Pakistan.

India does not have to kow-tow to states like Saudi that finance terror discreetly throughtout the non-Muslim world. Not to mention the fact that they are one of the major financiers all these madrassas and Jihadi outfits in Pakistan that churn out terrorists like an assembly line in a factory.

1/2 a billion dollars worth of investment is not a whole lot in terms of investment even if it was fully FDI coming into India. Its diddly squat !!

Saudi clout in the middle-east is limited to a few small dinky countries like Yemen, UAE, Kuwait, and Jordan. As for the big players in the region - Iraq, Syria, Iran, Egypt, Turkey....Saudi influence is very limited if not virtually non existent and OPEC is nowhere near what it was in 1974 when they increased prices.

Go brush up on your Middle-eastern politics dude !!
 

mattster

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While most people may not know, I suggest a read of the Delhi Declaration of which a good analysis is provided below. A major achivement of the UPA in delinking Saudi Arabia's relationship with India from Pakistan and providing it an independant standing as an emerging power.


The points of intersts being
* Providing long term stable supplies of crude oil. Along with co-operation in processed oil prodcuts. Trade and investemetns in join ventures across health, education, toursim, cultural and IT sectors.
* Anti-Terroism co-operation MoU and intelligence sharing
* Defence co-operation which may increase in time but already iincludes
* Bilateral military cooperation boosted by high-level military/intelligence exchanges, joint training of troops and use of training courses in India. Infact, some Saudi officers have attended Defence colleges in India as well on exchange programs
* Indian Navy paying visits to Saudi Arabia both in the Red Sea and the Gulf and co-operating in anti-piracy efforts around Yemen.

The Saudis tend to work behind the secnes and are conservative by nature, but there is credible info that it was Saudi influence among others that forced Pakistan to change its stance on 26/11 Mumbai attacks. The Saudis were one of the first countries were a face-to-face discussion on 26/11 evidence was shared.

And afaik there has not been any terrorist attacks by arabs in India. Except maybe for a brief sting in Kashmir were Arab Afghans who had no where else to go were funnelled there. But even there the majority as always have been Pakistanis, or Pakistani based groups. Other groups like the ULFA and others in NE although having nothing to with relgion were funded clandestinely by Pakistani based intelligence outfits as well.

Lets keep an objective attitude and understand what geo-politics in the right context and so that we can correctly identify governments that can align our Interests with theirs.

You are missing a key point here: While the Saudi government may be cooperating with India and US and the UK in intelligence to prevent terrorism - their citizens and private groups are contributing generously to Jihadi groups worldwide.

Additionally their support of various Islamic Wahhabi missionaries, madrassas and charities are indirectly creating these terrorist groups.

Their active export of Wahhabism to the Islamic world is the primary reason that there is so much Islamic terror activity in non-Muslim majority states with small muslim minorities.

Take your pick - India, Thailand, Philipines, UK, US, Nigeria, etc.

There is an endless list of countries that are affected by this; in fact even some moderate Islamic majority countries like Malaysia, Turkey, etc are wary of the influence that Saudi inspired groups may pose and even monitor them.

Its a double faced policy that gives the Saudis the "plausible deniabilty excuse".

I also find your statement about "Pakistan's change in stance regarding the Mumbai attack as because of Saudi influence simply amazing" !!

When you have intelligence intercepts from the US with endless running Urdu conversation from VOIP numbers that are clearly located in Pakistan - then how much more proof do u need. The US produced this stuff and there was nothing that Pak could do to refute it. When people in the village that Ajmal Khan came from openly told the Dawn paper that he was boy from that village - how can they deny it. BTW.....what did changing their stance do. Those guys who master-minded this are still free or under house arrest only.
 

ejazr

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^^^ Isn't Pakistan the biggest recipent of American military aid? In the years between 2001-2009 it received even more aid than Israel. And instead of buying military gear to combat insurgents like combat helicopters, Musharraf was busy buying fighter jets by the reimbursements they were getting paid.

Doesn't that make the Americans a key problem here? Arn't these a bigger issue for defence than some "private citizens" funding terror. And I can give you numerous examples of Saudi intelligence and anti-terrorist outfits cracking down on sympathsiers and supporters. The fact is that they are very quiet about it and if you follow arab based newspapers you will see how they have acted against them.

There is a large section of the public in Nepal that are anti-India and even have committed acts of terror against people of Indian origin. Terrorists have entered freely from Nepali soil. Does that mean we should have no strategic interests or that we should not try to improve friendly relations with Nepal? That we should declare Nepal as following a double-faced policy and not try to understand the internal dynamics of why this is happening?

A sucessful understanding in this manner is one of reason for the turn around in relations with Bangladesh and the subsequent cleanup of anti-Indian militant outfits there.

The key point you are missing is that the links that most of these authors posted earliar mentioned and you allude were a part of a "Christian-Islamic alliance" to twhart Communism, if I paraphrase Bezenski. Most of these groups were Qutubists and Maududists primarily.

Just like you can't blame all muslims terrorism to "save Islam" or hindus for terrorism to "save Hinduism", similarly it is a fallacy and counter productive to just blame wahabbis(aka salafis) if some of their followers have indulged in this act, primarily becase as a school of thought there teachings are not what is used to justify the acts committed by OBL and AQ affiliates.

You claim that "wahabbi export" of terrorism in India, is there any credible link of a saudi connection with any terrorist attack in India. Infact is there any arab connection? Other than a few arab afghans who fought along with militants in Kashmir I'm pretty sure there are none.

I personally have many reservations and am against their extremely conservative and at times bigoted views, their denial of tasawwuf(sufism) and at times intolerant attitudes on other school of thoughts. But having had discussions with them, living in saudi arabia and discussed with their ulema as well, I can say that they are actually against the AQ type ideology of politcal Islam.

Anti-Communist agenda in the 80s and the growing influence of Iran in the 90s were the two main reasons for financial funding that was provided freely to these groups. In the 80s we had the entire western world including Israel and China funding and training these same groups. These are documented facts and present in declassfied documents. While most of the western funding (not all) was closed up post Soviet collapse,

Even the Taliban that were supported by the Pakistanis and Saudis were supported by the strong Israeli lobby in the US for their anti-shia(hence anti-Iran) stance and by oil lobbys like Unocal. These info is presen in NSA archives and illustrated by Ahmed Rashid in his book on the Taliban. Even the Saudis had a fallout with the Taliban in 98 when they found out that Taliban were giving shelter to wated man OBL and did not handover other Saudi extermists operating on Afghan soil. After that, although Saudi govt. still recognised the Taliban govt. they had no more diplomatic relations and closed their office there over these differences.

Just like the Americans realise rightly so that their interests align with the Saudis and they co-oeprate with them espcially in matters of terrorism among others, we should look at the facts and understand why is it so. Wether it is the Bush or Obama administration.

If you follow anti-terrorism efforst by the Saudis you will be surrised by the steps they have taken. These includes by covertly shutting down arabic language websties that promote extremism, to cutting of finnacial supply lines and even operating a rehab centre for former extremists to mainstream them. The new King espicially has also started some small democratic reforms that are also important to quell this extremism likemuniciapl elections.

Bottom line; approach Saudi Arabia with an open and unprejudiced mind, and don't treat it liek a monolith. There are good and bad in every society and the current govt. definitely has the potential to be an importantly partner.

------------------------------
Anyways, the current Saudi govt. has done a lot to counter terrorist activites of AQ and related groups because they are best equipped ideologically to tackle it espicially related to saudi extremists.


Arresting militants:
Saudi arrests 172 al-Qaeda militants
Saudi Arabia Arrests 701 Al Qaeda-Linked Militants

Establishing a ideological rehab program that has been quite sucessful and a pain for Al-Qaeda's recrutiment base:
Al-Qaeda Targeting Saudi Rehabilitation Program

And even an Internet monitoring program that shuts down Arabic AQ related websites.
"Arabic-language radical sites have dropped to around 50, down from 1,000 seven years ago"
200 Web sites spread al-Qaida's message in English
 

Rage

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You dumb-ass dodo.....when you are buying oil from a foreign country and paying them the market rate - that means that you also have some leverage because you are the buyer. Oil can be gotten from many countries that are not all in the middle-east.

Its not like they are selling you oil at a discount, like they do for Pakistan.

India does not have to kow-tow to states like Saudi that finance terror discreetly throughtout the non-Muslim world. Not to mention the fact that they are one of the major financiers all these madrassas and Jihadi outfits in Pakistan that churn out terrorists like an assembly line in a factory.

1/2 a billion dollars worth of investment is not a whole lot in terms of investment even if it was fully FDI coming into India. Its diddly squat !!

Saudi clout in the middle-east is limited to a few small dinky countries like Yemen, UAE, Kuwait, and Jordan. As for the big players in the region - Iraq, Syria, Iran, Egypt, Turkey....Saudi influence is very limited if not virtually non existent and OPEC is nowhere near what it was in 1974 when they increased prices.

Go brush up on your Middle-eastern politics dude !!
When you have no direct land access to Central Asia, and when the nearest largest oil suppliers are in f^ckin Venezuela and South America, and when you have to pay nearly twice as much in transportation costs to cart that black gold across both the Atlantic and the Indian ocean, or when your bumchums Russia are supplying Europe wit oil, but can't get any of that petrokick to you because their only Siberian pipelines run thru Yamalo Nenetsk, and not to their Pacifick coast, when your known oil reserves are projected to last for only 19.3 years at the current rate of production, and when your oil consumption is expected to more than quadruple by 2020 from 2005 levels, and particularly when you're surrounded by the world's fastest growing oil and gas-guzzling economy, then your 'leverage' over them is zip. Go get a course in economics or business negotiation, then zip it.

We kow-tow to our own interests imbecile! This is not about 'kow-towing' to any 'state' or their global jihadic ambitions. That is puerile, and somethin' that could only come from you.

The madrassas and jihadi factories that churn out terrorists in Pakisthan do them more damage than do us.

What's diddly squat is that lump of jello you call your brain. Half a billion dollars and a f^cking Free Trade Agreement with six states is not diddly squat. Understood?

Saudi influence in the Middle East extends to all of the nations of the peninsula that matter to us from an economic and trade perspective. The United Arab Emirates, Oman, Qatar, Kuwait and Bahrain- six of the richest states of the Persian Gulf and itself- with a combined GDP of over a trillion dollars. India's relationship with Iran and Egypt need no meddling, Syria has an economy smaller than that of Qatar and Iraq is a de facto failed state. But, the two are not mutually exclusive ( I trust a dingbat like you can't appreciate that). Saudi Arabia's influence also extends to Lebanon, with the election of the so-called March 14 alliance and Jordan, with their colossal 'financial aid' and their joint agendas on the 'Arab summit'.

Go brush up on everything, dude!
 

mattster

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Indonesia, Malaysia and Brunei are 3 big exporters of oil and you dont need to go anywhere near the Suez canal. In case you forgot your geography its on the other side of the map and very close to India.

Indonesia is one of the biggest exporter and oil is the main source of revenue.
 

Rage

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Indonesia, Malaysia and Brunei are 3 big exporters of oil and you dont need to go anywhere near the Suez canal. In case you forgot your geography its on the other side of the map and very close to India.

Indonesia is one of the biggest exporter and oil is the main source of revenue.
The distance between Surat on India's western coast and the Saudi Arabian city of Al Jubayl on the Persian gulf, which is between where most supertankers dock, is about 1250 nautical miles. The distance between the port of Vishakapatnam on the eastern coast and the Indonesian port city of Dumai, which is the largest closest petrochemical port is 1381 miles. Considering that most economic activity happens on India's west coast, and the fact that oil will have to be ferried from the east coast to the west, that seems like a rad maf^ckin' shitt$ter idea!


Furthermore, I quote from Wikipedia:

"Indonesia's fuel production has declined significantly over the years, owing to aging oil fields and lack of investment in new equipment. As of 2005, Indonesian crude oil and condensate output was 1.07 million barrels per day. This is a substantial decline from the 1990s, due primarily to aging oil fields and a lack of investment in oil production equipment. This decline in production has been accompanied by a substantial increase in domestic consumption, about 5.4% per year, leading to an estimated US$1.2 billion cost for importing oil in 2005."

Economy of Indonesia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As of Dec. 2006,

"Oil production is forecast to continue to fall.

Trijana Kartoatmodjo, the Deputy Head of the Upstream Oil and Gas Executing Body (BP Migas), says that daily oil production in Indonesia will continue falling unless new fields are developed. Currently oil production is at 1.1 million barrels per day while demand is at 1.3 million barrels.

Trijana says that oil production is falling by 1.2% a year while oil demand is rising by 1.5%. In 2007 it is estimated that daily production will be at 995,000 barrels, falling in 2008 to 982,000 barrels and falling again in 2009 to 971,000 barrels, while daily consumption of oil in 2007 will likely be at 1,365 million barrels per day, rising in 2008 to 1,443 million barrels and in 2009 to 1,505 million barrels.

BP Migas is therefore hoping to begin drilling of 200 wells between 2007 and 2009. Trijana went on to say that these 200 wells, located in Ambon, Cepu, the northern coast of West Java, Jambi, the Madura Straits and Papua, had the potential to produce 3.8 billion barrels of oil and 17 trillion cubic meters of gas. Trijana said:

We hope there are new fields. Otherwise, it will difficult to meet domestic energy needs, let alone export.

Meanwhile Andand Bachtiar, a geologist from the Bandung Institute of Technology, raised some doubt about the target of drilling 200 wells between 2007 and 2009.

Are they production wells or exploration wells? If the existing wells have been developed, and the production is increased, it may be up to 200 wells. But if they're exploration [new] wells, then that's nonsense.

Indonesia only recently, in 2004, became a net importer of oil, because of:

declining production and lack of new exploration investment. [2]

April 3rd 2007. Dody Hidayat of the Oil and Gas Executing Body (BP Migas) says that as of March this year oil production is at 966,449 barrels per day, broken down into 851,719 barrels of oil and 114,730 barrels of condensate. In the 2007 State Budget a target of 1.05 million barrels per day is set out.

Dody said decline in production was a continuing problem and that BP Migas is currently searching for new fields with large reserves.

However BP Migas' Planning Deputy, Achmad Lutfi, says there will be additional oil production coming on line this year, coming from Ujung Pangkah Phase 2 (Hess) North Duri (Chevron), Blok Natuna (ConocoPhillips) and Sepanjang (PT Energi Mega Persada). [3]

April 26th 2007. Chairman of the Downstream Oil and Gas Regulating Body (BPH Migas), Tubagus Haryono says that Indonesia is no longer an oil-rich country given that Indonesia's oil reserves account for only 0.8% of the world total.

He said Indonesia's current crude oil production was 1,000 MBCD while its exports were 300 million bbl and import 411 million bbl per year."
Oil Production

As of May 6, 2008:

"Consider the ironies:

(Indonesia mulls OPEC withdrawal The Economist [2008 May 6]

OPEC member Indonesia is considering leaving the oil cartel to concentrate on domestic production, the country's president has said.

Levels of oil production from its ageing wells are declining, making the country a net importer of oil when crude prices are at record levels.

It has had to cut subsidies on domestic fuel to avoid a massive budget deficit.

Some analysts have said the oil exporting group's reluctance to boost production has kept prices high.

Oil analyst Kurtubi said that - as an oil importer - Indonesia's concerns clashed with those of other OPEC members.

"[Indonesia's] interests now are different. We want oil prices to come down as high oil prices put pressure on our budget. But exporters want a reasonable or even high price since it is their main source of revenue."

Declining investment in Indonesia's oil infrastructure has seen its output drop below a million barrels a day from about 1.5m in the mid-1990s.

President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono said the government had begun talks as to "whether we should continue to stay with OPEC or withdraw our membership".

Protests

The Indonesian government announced on Monday that it would have to cut subsidies on fuel to avoid a massive budget deficit.

The move led to a demonstration against the rising price of fuel in Makassar on Indonesia's Sulawesi island, according to one media report.

The decision to leave OPEC will be a tough one for Indonesia, says Karishma Vaswani, one of the BBC's Asia business correpondents.

But it may be necessary because of the economic and political conditions the country is facing right now, she adds.

It spends billions of dollars every year subsidising fuel for its citzens, which is a huge drain on its economic resources and on the government's coffers, our correspondent points out.

However, raising fuel prices is a politically unpopular move, so it is choosing instead to focus its resources on investing in its domestic oil and gas production, she adds.

When Indonesia has had to raise domestic fuel prices in the past, this has led to big protests against the government, which faces an election in 2009.

Indonesia is South East Asia's only OPEC representative and has been a member since 1962, two years after it was founded."
Indonesia • Hubbert Peak of Oil Production


Brunei, are you f^cking serious? Only a political nitwit like you would rely on Brunei for oil! Brunei piddles, at 200,000 barrels of oil per day, while Saudi Arabia gushes- at over 12 million. Over 82% of Brunei's LNG produced is sold to Japan under a long-term agreement renewed in 1993. Additionally, Australia, Indonesia, and Korea all have long term agreements shoring upto as much as 70% of Brunei's total crude exports.


Malaysia is another country that only a political nitwit like you would rely on. In 2008, total production was 727,000 barrels per day. During 2008, Malaysia consumed an estimated 547,000 bbl/d, and had net exports of about 180,000 bbl/d. Production is set to decline at about 6% a year from its peak of 855 kb/d in 2005, which if that holds, will have declined to about 570 kb/d in 2010 and 300 kb/d in 2020. Add to that Malaysia's own booming economy with growth rates of between 5 and 7% since 2007, and the fact that between 2009 and 2019 an estimated fall of 3,62% is forecast in Malaysia's total oil production, and you have a reason for why Malaysia ain't such a good bet. Contrast this with Saudi Arabia which has future growth modeled at 4% annum.
 

ejazr

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Just to add in terms of trade, Saudi Arabia continues to be the biggest economy in the GCC by far. For 2008-2009, India-GCC trade of just non-oil products is around $87B. Add the $60B worth of oil and oil related products . And if you add the $30B worth of remittances by Indian expats in gulf region that takes the trade/economic relation to about $180B US in the recession prone year,making it the biggest trading bloc for India. Bigger than EU, North America or China.

India-Gulf Ties Vital for Asia, Says Envoy
 

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