Russia to the rescue of IAF, offers 21 MiG-29s to boost strength

IndiaRising

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Excuses!!!

IAF favoured Boeing for new helicopters, revised parameters 5 times : CAG

The Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) has come down heavily on the Indian Air Force (IAF) for “aligning” its tender requirement for heavy lift choppers to suit the Boeing-manufactured Chinook, which the force finally bought in 2015.

The CAG, however, maintained that there were inadequate field evaluation trials for both the Chinook CH-47, manufactured in the US and its competitor, the Russian Mi-26.

In a paragraph titled “ASQRs (Air Staff Qualitative Requirements) aligned to Chinook”, the audit has noted that though the existing Mi-26 helicopters were to be replaced with new heavy-lift helicopters (HLH), “the parameters formulated for procurement were much lower”.



The max payload capacity was reduced to 11,000 kgs as against the 20,000 kgs of Mi 26 helicopters. Seating capacity was also reduced to 45 troops as against the 82 troops of Mi-26 helicopters,” the CAG report says.

“The max underslung load was reduced to 10,000 kgs as against the underslung load capacity of 20,000 kgs of Mi-26 helicopter.”

The CAG report notes that the “revised ASQR parameters matched those of the Chinook helicopter”, adding that the Ministry of Defence (MoD) did not contest the fact that the ASQRs were aligned to Chinook helicopter.

The report further notes that during the FET (Field Evaluation Trials), the Chinook helicopter did not meet eight critical ASQR parameters while the Mi-26 did not meet five ASQR parameters.


ASQR revised five times ::

The CAG report states that the ASQR parameters were revised five times between 2006 and 2009. Thus the ASQRs were being drafted in consultation with the vendors “or in other words were being modified according to what was offered by them rather than the user need”.

The primary objective of these helicopters was to provide heavy lift support to the Army for its combat operation.

The CAG noted that there was a large difference between the payload capacity of Mi-26 helicopter and CH-47.

The Mi-26 helicopter is capable of carrying 20 tonnes in a single drop mission as against the payload of 11 tonnes by the CH-47 helicopter. Seating capacity of Mi-26 helicopter is 82 with fully equipped troops whereas the seating capacity of CH-47 Chinook is only 45.

Thus, for transporting weapons, equipment and men to support combat operation, the CH-47 would have to make double the trips as compared to the Mi-26 helicopter.

https://theprint.in/defence/iaf-fav...opters-revised-parameters-5-times-cag/192200/


All the parameter got changed, just so the IAF could get fancy toys.

When it comes to tejas/ in-house products they keep on adding more and more parameters keeping the indegeneous product in the development stage for eternity but everything is good and dandy when it comes to foreign maal.

And when you don't fulfill their demands, they do press conferences; crying to the media about how the government is mean and doesn't care about squadron short fall. :crying:
Does the CAG report mention the operational and maintenance cost of a mi-26 vs a chinook?
 

Haldiram

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Boi!

Murica gon be pissed!

Just yesterday they issued a warning to India not to buy Venezuelan oil, and before that the S400, and before that Iranian oil. India ignored all the threats. Murica wants to kill the Russian defense complex and after lobbying for F16 and F35, India goes and buys Russian planes from the storage hangar and a massive order for AK guns. :biggrin2:

@IndiaRising CAG is a sham org invented just to keep up the illusion that something is being investigated by an independent agency. They speak on both sides to keep the populace in "just enough" confusion. They can claim that Mi26 has more seating capacity but the end user can say that the war doctrine itself required smaller airframe for stealth.

Ultimately, all weapons purchases are political. The Apache-Chinook order was a goodwill order placed by India, a "hafta" if you will, in exchange for resetting the cold ties with the US. Immediately after the deal was signed, Obama visited India, and granted an exemption from sanctions for buying Iranian oil, and S400. Then we also got NSG, MTCR exemptions. No one is going to mention those political things as a direct cause of the purchases in the CAG. They will create a confusion with "technical facts". The number of Chinook/Apaches we purchased are not even enough to cater to one airborne division. It's just "chai paani" to start the US-India pivot. These things were in the pipeline since 2004, but Saint Antony put all weapons purchases in the cold storage for fear of scams.
 
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Aaj ka hero

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Excuses!!!

IAF favoured Boeing for new helicopters, revised parameters 5 times : CAG

The Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) has come down heavily on the Indian Air Force (IAF) for “aligning” its tender requirement for heavy lift choppers to suit the Boeing-manufactured Chinook, which the force finally bought in 2015.

The CAG, however, maintained that there were inadequate field evaluation trials for both the Chinook CH-47, manufactured in the US and its competitor, the Russian Mi-26.

In a paragraph titled “ASQRs (Air Staff Qualitative Requirements) aligned to Chinook”, the audit has noted that though the existing Mi-26 helicopters were to be replaced with new heavy-lift helicopters (HLH), “the parameters formulated for procurement were much lower”.



The max payload capacity was reduced to 11,000 kgs as against the 20,000 kgs of Mi 26 helicopters. Seating capacity was also reduced to 45 troops as against the 82 troops of Mi-26 helicopters,” the CAG report says.

“The max underslung load was reduced to 10,000 kgs as against the underslung load capacity of 20,000 kgs of Mi-26 helicopter.”

The CAG report notes that the “revised ASQR parameters matched those of the Chinook helicopter”, adding that the Ministry of Defence (MoD) did not contest the fact that the ASQRs were aligned to Chinook helicopter.

The report further notes that during the FET (Field Evaluation Trials), the Chinook helicopter did not meet eight critical ASQR parameters while the Mi-26 did not meet five ASQR parameters.


ASQR revised five times ::

The CAG report states that the ASQR parameters were revised five times between 2006 and 2009. Thus the ASQRs were being drafted in consultation with the vendors “or in other words were being modified according to what was offered by them rather than the user need”.

The primary objective of these helicopters was to provide heavy lift support to the Army for its combat operation.

The CAG noted that there was a large difference between the payload capacity of Mi-26 helicopter and CH-47.

The Mi-26 helicopter is capable of carrying 20 tonnes in a single drop mission as against the payload of 11 tonnes by the CH-47 helicopter. Seating capacity of Mi-26 helicopter is 82 with fully equipped troops whereas the seating capacity of CH-47 Chinook is only 45.

Thus, for transporting weapons, equipment and men to support combat operation, the CH-47 would have to make double the trips as compared to the Mi-26 helicopter.

https://theprint.in/defence/iaf-fav...opters-revised-parameters-5-times-cag/192200/


All the parameter got changed, just so the IAF could get fancy toys.

When it comes to tejas/ in-house products they keep on adding more and more parameters keeping the indegeneous product in the development stage for eternity but everything is good and dandy when it comes to foreign maal.

And when you don't fulfill their demands, they do press conferences; crying to the media about how the government is mean and doesn't care about squadron short fall. :crying:
Mi-26 was perfect plane the only problem was "maintenance issues" and also no capability for special ops mission. It actually has no comparison in whole aviation industry.
Well I think it is for their foreign secretary who is coming here for DISCUSSING TREATMENT OF THEIR BELOVED FLIPKART AND AMAZON AND AND MASTER CARD I know even USA will not want to be embroiled in another rafale type fiasco.
 
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Enquirer

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So, this is what IAF is buying: Rejects from Algeria


Algeria returns 'faulty' MiG-29s
  • 25 FEBRUARY, 2008
  • SOURCE: FLIGHT INTERNATIONAL
  • BY: VLADIMIR KARNOZOV

Algeria is returning 12 RSK MiG-29SMT single-seat fighters and UBT-model trainers to Russia, after refusing to accept the aircraft amid allegations of poor manufacturing quality.

The aircraft are part of a package for 34 MiG-29SMT/UBTs worth $1.3 billion, with an additional $500 million for the modernisation of 36 early-model MiG-29s acquired for $18 million each from Belarus and Ukraine.

These should have been upgraded to the SMT/UBT standard, but following shipment of the first batch last year, the Algerian air force found that some "new" equipment actually dated back to the early 1990s, when the aircraft had been manufactured.

RSK MiG says all avionics and targeting equipment supplied with the aircraft is new, and reflects its current production variants.

Algeria also took delivery of its first three of 28 Sukhoi Su-30MKA two-seat multirole fighters between December 2007 and January, and is now negotiating with Russia's Rosoboronexport arms agency for a further batch of the aircraft to replace its unwanted MiGs.

Sources say Algeria also wants to use some of the money from the abandoned deal to buy additional Yakovlev Yak-130A trainers, with these to join 16 aircraft ordered with the MiG and Sukhoi fighters as part of a wider arms package worth $8 billion signed with Russia in 2006.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/algeria-returns-39faulty39-mig-29s-221771/
 

Narasimh

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These have performed well with IAF with proper spares and maintenance equipment unlike many other air forces who find it difficult to service these. Recently Navy also seems to have resolved the issues with their Ks.
 

Narasimh

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30charsssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
 

vampyrbladez

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So, this is what IAF is buying: Rejects from Algeria


Algeria returns 'faulty' MiG-29s
  • 25 FEBRUARY, 2008
  • SOURCE: FLIGHT INTERNATIONAL
  • BY: VLADIMIR KARNOZOV

Algeria is returning 12 RSK MiG-29SMT single-seat fighters and UBT-model trainers to Russia, after refusing to accept the aircraft amid allegations of poor manufacturing quality.

The aircraft are part of a package for 34 MiG-29SMT/UBTs worth $1.3 billion, with an additional $500 million for the modernisation of 36 early-model MiG-29s acquired for $18 million each from Belarus and Ukraine.

These should have been upgraded to the SMT/UBT standard, but following shipment of the first batch last year, the Algerian air force found that some "new" equipment actually dated back to the early 1990s, when the aircraft had been manufactured.

RSK MiG says all avionics and targeting equipment supplied with the aircraft is new, and reflects its current production variants.

Algeria also took delivery of its first three of 28 Sukhoi Su-30MKA two-seat multirole fighters between December 2007 and January, and is now negotiating with Russia's Rosoboronexport arms agency for a further batch of the aircraft to replace its unwanted MiGs.

Sources say Algeria also wants to use some of the money from the abandoned deal to buy additional Yakovlev Yak-130A trainers, with these to join 16 aircraft ordered with the MiG and Sukhoi fighters as part of a wider arms package worth $8 billion signed with Russia in 2006.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/algeria-returns-39faulty39-mig-29s-221771/
34 airworthy frames? Well butter my ass and call me a biscuit! I say buy, buy and buy. $$$ to Russia = Pressure on Gandhi family to STFU. Gandhi family STFU = Lutyens STFU = Dalals STFU.
 

Enquirer

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34 airworthy frames? Well butter my ass and call me a biscuit! I say buy, buy and buy. $$$ to Russia = Pressure on Gandhi family to STFU. Gandhi family STFU = Lutyens STFU = Dalals STFU.
I am not against buying the aircraft. I am just saying that India could/should strike a better bargain!
Right now Russia has almost zero marginal cost (other than manpower to assemble back the parts).

Algerians paid $1.3B for 34 aircraft with maintenance, spares, weapons, training etc! That's around $38 million a piece. Now India's buying the mothballed version with no maintenance, spares, training (already in India) and probably no weapons. So, paying $30 million a piece is not a good bargain.

There are plans to integrate Astra with Mig-29
 
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Filtercoffee

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Aesa, full glass cockpit touch screen display(exactly and without analog displays like the F 15 SE), super cruise, a very high use of composites for the whole airframe new fuel carrying capacity, retractable mid air refueling probe, artificial intelligence and top current computers, systems, avionics with improvements of design in control planes, better comfort and visibility for the pilot with quicker turn around rates with full upgrade rights is what the Indian Air Force crews need with this quick purchase. (Advanced Hawk lol! Sorry but it is true.)
 
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wairoa

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Go for it India. Replace the Mig 21with Mig 29s and be done with it.
Replace Mirage 2k with western fighters if you can in the future.
Although I would really love to see Tejas problems resolved.
 

Killswitch

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If the IAF can express confidence in the airframes, and monitor the upgrade process, then all that is left is price negotiations. Of course this wouldnt be required if the Rafale make in India deal had been signed by Congress many years ago.
 

Flying Dagger

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So Finally the deal is confirmed and Migs will be rolling so we will have 80 UPG.

1. Can someone confirm if these UPG will have Zhuk AME radar ? ( AESA )

2. If the other UPG will be getting the same upgrade ?
 

Flying Dagger

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So Finally the deal is confirmed and Migs will be rolling so we will have 80 UPG.

1. Can someone confirm if these UPG will have Zhuk AME radar ? ( AESA )

2. If the other UPG will be getting the same upgrade ?
 

vishnugupt

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Excuses!!!

IAF favoured Boeing for new helicopters, revised parameters 5 times : CAG

The Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) has come down heavily on the Indian Air Force (IAF) for “aligning” its tender requirement for heavy lift choppers to suit the Boeing-manufactured Chinook, which the force finally bought in 2015.

The CAG, however, maintained that there were inadequate field evaluation trials for both the Chinook CH-47, manufactured in the US and its competitor, the Russian Mi-26.

In a paragraph titled “ASQRs (Air Staff Qualitative Requirements) aligned to Chinook”, the audit has noted that though the existing Mi-26 helicopters were to be replaced with new heavy-lift helicopters (HLH), “the parameters formulated for procurement were much lower”.



The max payload capacity was reduced to 11,000 kgs as against the 20,000 kgs of Mi 26 helicopters. Seating capacity was also reduced to 45 troops as against the 82 troops of Mi-26 helicopters,” the CAG report says.

“The max underslung load was reduced to 10,000 kgs as against the underslung load capacity of 20,000 kgs of Mi-26 helicopter.”

The CAG report notes that the “revised ASQR parameters matched those of the Chinook helicopter”, adding that the Ministry of Defence (MoD) did not contest the fact that the ASQRs were aligned to Chinook helicopter.

The report further notes that during the FET (Field Evaluation Trials), the Chinook helicopter did not meet eight critical ASQR parameters while the Mi-26 did not meet five ASQR parameters.


ASQR revised five times ::

The CAG report states that the ASQR parameters were revised five times between 2006 and 2009. Thus the ASQRs were being drafted in consultation with the vendors “or in other words were being modified according to what was offered by them rather than the user need”.

The primary objective of these helicopters was to provide heavy lift support to the Army for its combat operation.

The CAG noted that there was a large difference between the payload capacity of Mi-26 helicopter and CH-47.

The Mi-26 helicopter is capable of carrying 20 tonnes in a single drop mission as against the payload of 11 tonnes by the CH-47 helicopter. Seating capacity of Mi-26 helicopter is 82 with fully equipped troops whereas the seating capacity of CH-47 Chinook is only 45.

Thus, for transporting weapons, equipment and men to support combat operation, the CH-47 would have to make double the trips as compared to the Mi-26 helicopter.

https://theprint.in/defence/iaf-fav...opters-revised-parameters-5-times-cag/192200/


All the parameter got changed, just so the IAF could get fancy toys.

When it comes to tejas/ in-house products they keep on adding more and more parameters keeping the indegeneous product in the development stage for eternity but everything is good and dandy when it comes to foreign maal.

And when you don't fulfill their demands, they do press conferences; crying to the media about how the government is mean and doesn't care about squadron short fall. :crying:
What is new in it?? I feel pity for our IAF. Among all three forces only IAF is in dire situation literally begging for junks.
Few years back HAL asked IAF to order atleast 2more squadrons but IAF outright rejected offer.
This pathetic situation of shame to IAF largely brought by themselves. A old saying
"people who spit in the sky, spit fall back on their face"
 

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