Russia to Offer Brazil Stake in Future Advanced Fighter Project Pak-FA

kseeker

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Russia to Offer Brazil Stake in Future Advanced Fighter Project (Pak-Fa) | idrw.org

SOURCE: RIA Novosti



A Russian military delegation about to visit Brazil will offer joint development of a fifth-generation combat aircraft "of the type" of its own most newest fighter to Brazilian defense officials, a member of the delegation told RIA Novosti Monday.

The proposal appears to be in support of an unsolicited offer by Russia's combat aircraft maker Sukhoi of its Su-35 fighter, that has been struck off Brazil's shortlist for its air force's F-X2 tender for the purchase of 36 fighter jets worth $4 billion. Russia is still hoping to sell the Su-35s or similar aircraft to Brazil outside the framework of that tender, sweetening the deal with the new proposal.



"During the talks in Brazil, we are ready to offer our partners deliveries of ready-for-sale advanced aircraft like the Su-35, but also joint development of a next-generation [combat] aircraft of the T-50 type," the delegation source said.

The T-50 or PAK-FA, which will make up the core of Russia's future fighter fleet, is a multirole warplane featuring "stealth" technology," super-manoeuvrability, super-cruise capability, and advanced avionics including an active electronically scanned array radar, according to its designer Sukhoi.

In late April, President Vladimir Putin said the first T-50 would enter service with Russia's armed forces in 2016.

Russia and India are already developing a derivative of T-50 for the Indian Air Force. According to executives from India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), that will build the plane, the two sides completed the preliminary design of the aircraft, tentatively dubbed FGFA, earlier this year and are now negotiating a detailed design contract.

The F-X2 tender is Brazil's second attempt to find a replacement for its ageing Northrop F-5 and Dassault Mirage fighters. An earlier tender, F-X, was cancelled in 2005 due to lack of funding.

Three contenders officially remain in the running – the Swedish SAAB Gripen NG, French Dassault Rafale and US Boeing FA-18E/F Super Hornet. According to Defense Industry Daily, the FA-18E/F was close to winning the deal last month, but revelations that the United States National Security Agency had spied on the Brazilian presidential office put the deal on hold. Brazil's Poder Aero magazine, citing local officials, says Brazil's President Dilma Rousseff decided late last month to postpone the tender until 2015, after next year's elections.

A Russian delegation led by Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu, will visit Brazil and Peru on October 14-17 to promote sales of Russian weaponry to those countries. It includes Alexander Fomin, head of the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation (FSMTC) and Anatoly Isaikin, head of the arms exports monopoly Rosobornexport.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What would be the reaction of Indian MoD ?

Isn't Russia violating the FGFA JV agreement with India ?

Is this news a matter of concern to us (India) ?
 

Decklander

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Re: Russia to Offer Brazil Stake in Future Advanced Fighter Project Pa

I am not surprised at all. Indian JV with Russia is on the verge of collapse and this is a way by which russia is trying to send a signal to India. I had posted this on another thread and IMHO, pulling out of this JV will be good for India or we will be fleeced like Vikramaditiya deal.
 

hello_10

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Re: Russia to Offer Brazil Stake in Future Advanced Fighter Project Pa


its a good effort to bring the "like minded" countris together :thumb:

among the BRICS, only china has its own 5th generation program, J20, and its look like that china would remain an economic power in future too, to have big projects on its own, like J20. but having hands of Brazil, along with Russia - India joint PAK FA project may be taken as an initiative to have Brazil with us in other majors defence projects in future too :truestory:
 
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kseeker

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Re: Russia to Offer Brazil Stake in Future Advanced Fighter Project Pa

its a good effort to bring the "like minded" countris together :thumb:

among the BRICS, only china has its own 5th generation program, J20, and its look like that china would remain an economic power in future too, to have big projects on its own, like J20. but having hands of Brazil, along with Russia - India joint PAK FA project may be taken as an initiative to have Brazil with us in other majors defence projects in future too :truestory:
Isn't Russia violating the FGFA JV agreement with India by offering PAK-FA to brazil ?
 

kseeker

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Re: Russia to Offer Brazil Stake in Future Advanced Fighter Project Pa

I am not surprised at all. Indian JV with Russia is on the verge of collapse and this is a way by which russia is trying to send a signal to India. I had posted this on another thread and IMHO, pulling out of this JV will be good for India or we will be fleeced like Vikramaditiya deal.
Might as well be a result of growing India - US relationship ?
 

hello_10

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Re: Russia to Offer Brazil Stake in Future Advanced Fighter Project Pa

Isn't Russia violating the FGFA JV agreement with India by offering PAK-FA to brazil ?
hmmmmm, russia first violated its many rulers when it was agreed to share its most of the best technologies with india in this front line aircraft of world, by involving india from even design phase of this project, like how they have history of full tech transfer to india of many defence arms. and i dont think Russia will be left with any key technology in aircraft industries, which it hasn't shared with india :ranger:

china has been even cloning the russian aircrafts, and russian technologies were always a dream for china for a century. but its a valid noise by the indian side if russia does the same type of favor with brazil too. but here we need to think more than that as, we do need those 'like minded' countries with whom we may fund any big projects in future too, like 6th gen aircraft/ next gen submariens etc. once brazil will come in the category of the country which may produce a frontline aircraft like pak fa, they will then think for the same type of 'home production' of those western equipments, which they never produced by themselves. until brazil finds its worth going for pak fa, in place of US's F35, which would also come in production from 2020 onward, they won't join us.....

we first need to make Brazil using the home made defence equipments like russia-india. :truestory:
 
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Decklander

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Re: Russia to Offer Brazil Stake in Future Advanced Fighter Project Pa

Might as well be a result of growing India - US relationship ?
Infact russians are learning from USA. F-35 is an example. All other countries are only paying for the ac produced by US for its own use and to save its own jobs. They did not even allow Israel to fit its own avionics in the first batch.
Pak-Fa was designed based on russian needs, the first prototype was flying even before India entered the scene. So what contribution can India have in it and what benefit will India get when russians are refusing to share critical tech?
 
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Re: Russia to Offer Brazil Stake in Future Advanced Fighter Project Pa

I knew Russians will play a lot of games with pakfa , why is this a suprise they always planned to export it and China could be a customer
 

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Re: Russia to Offer Brazil Stake in Future Advanced Fighter Project Pa

I knew Russians will play a lot of games with pakfa , why is this a suprise they always planned to export it and China could be a customer
even if they do not sell it to china, what is the guarantee that they will not give the tech to china thru backdoor which they have been doing all this while? Chinese themselves told the world that their attack hepter was designed by russians.
It is a good opportunity for India to pull out of this swampy deal and we must do so asap. We can make AMCA at less than half the cost of this JV.
 
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Re: Russia to Offer Brazil Stake in Future Advanced Fighter Project Pa

No guarantee with Russians sold rd 93 to pak and mid air refuellers via ukraine
 

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Re: Russia to Offer Brazil Stake in Future Advanced Fighter Project Pa

I knew Russians will play a lot of games with pakfa , why is this a suprise they always planned to export it and China could be a customer
will china so readily accept this fighter as they are developing their own stealth fighter ?
 
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Re: Russia to Offer Brazil Stake in Future Advanced Fighter Project Pa

China has third generation capability at best why wouldn't they accept a fighter that may be used against them?
Sukhoi already sold china almost all other flankers they built
 

drkrn

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Re: Russia to Offer Brazil Stake in Future Advanced Fighter Project Pa

I am not surprised at all. Indian JV with Russia is on the verge of collapse and this is a way by which russia is trying to send a signal to India. I had posted this on another thread and IMHO, pulling out of this JV will be good for India or we will be fleeced like Vikramaditiya deal.
with china harbouring modern jets at our border i think the deal is not bad ,yet.

why do you think that this deal is at the verge of collapse after india has participated for long and the prototype is almost ready?
 

drkrn

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Re: Russia to Offer Brazil Stake in Future Advanced Fighter Project Pa

even if they do not sell it to china, what is the guarantee that they will not give the tech to china thru backdoor which they have been doing all this while? Chinese themselves told the world that their attack hepter was designed by russians.
It is a good opportunity for India to pull out of this swampy deal and we must do so asap. We can make AMCA at less than half the cost of this JV.
we lack the expertise
 

drkrn

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Re: Russia to Offer Brazil Stake in Future Advanced Fighter Project Pa

Infact russians are learning from USA. F-35 is an example. All other countries are only paying for the ac produced by US for its own use and to save its own jobs. They did not even allow Israel to fit its own avionics in the first batch.
Pak-Fa was designed based on russian needs, the first prototype was flying even before India entered the scene. So what contribution can India have in it and what benefit will India get when russians are refusing to share critical tech?
do you say that we donot have any of our scientists in the development process??
 

drkrn

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Re: Russia to Offer Brazil Stake in Future Advanced Fighter Project Pa

hmmmmm, russia first violated its many rulers when it was agreed to share its most of the best technologies with india in this front line aircraft of world, by involving india from even design phase of this project, like how they have history of full tech transfer to india of many defence arms. and i dont think Russia will be left with any key technology in aircraft industries, which it hasn't shared with india :ranger:

china has been even cloning the russian aircrafts, and russian technologies were always a dream for china for a century. but its a valid noise by the indian side if russia does the same type of favor with brazil too. but here we need to think more than that as, we do need those 'like minded' countries with whom we may fund any big projects in future too, like 6th gen aircraft/ next gen submariens etc. once brazil will come in the category of the country which may produce a frontline aircraft like pak fa, they will then think for the same type of 'home production' of those western equipments, which they never produced by themselves. until brazil finds its worth going for pak fa, in place of US's F35, which would also come in production from 2020 onward, they won't join us.....

we first need to make Brazil using the home made defence equipments like russia-india. :truestory:
russia along with france are the only two countries who stood with india when we needed some one with us.thats why recently indian government said the recent warming of indo-us relations are not by leaving russia.

russia didn't violate any international rule by providing 5th gen fighter aircraft tech.afaik.
russia still possesses some good military hardware which they are not offering even to india.

why do russia still supply china with materials even after knowing their copy cat attitude?

its difficult for russia to have relation with brazil as it shares with india.russia and brazil do not share common interests.thats why i am skeptical of such offer
 

drkrn

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Re: Russia to Offer Brazil Stake in Future Advanced Fighter Project Pa

its a good effort to bring the "like minded" countris together :thumb:

among the BRICS, only china has its own 5th generation program, J20, and its look like that china would remain an economic power in future too, to have big projects on its own, like J20. but having hands of Brazil, along with Russia - India joint PAK FA project may be taken as an initiative to have Brazil with us in other majors defence projects in future too :truestory:
true.but offering such a sensitive tech....hmmm..

not advisable
 

p2prada

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Re: Russia to Offer Brazil Stake in Future Advanced Fighter Project Pa

Isn't Russia violating the FGFA JV agreement with India ?
According to what we know, we don't yet have any kind of agreement with Russia regarding FGFA because the final R&D contract is yet to be signed. But we do know that Russia has been making noises about PMF or FGFA being the export version of PAKFA.

So once we have signed the contract and some details are out, only then can we know if it is actually violating any of our agreements. As of today, according to open source info, FGFA was always supposed to be exported. The plan was to manufacture at least 1000 of them with 200 for Russia, 200 for India and the remaining 600 for export. PAKFA would be a separate project with its own set of orders, out of which 60 have been ordered.

What would be the reaction of Indian MoD ?
This was your first question but I moved it down because it cannot be answered without answering the above question first.

It depends, due to the fact that we do not know if a third version will be made for export that is a mix of PAKFA and FGFA, in case India and Russia decide that the Indian version of FGFA will be for Indian use alone.

The thing is PAKFA and FGFA are currently not so different from one another. It is confirmed that the airframe, engine and some core avionics will be the same. PAKFA may carry some unique Russian avionics while FGFA may carry Indian avionics like the 360 degree radar. For the third version, customers may be asked to choose certain electronics from either countries and perhaps an export version may be made depending on the finances of the customers.

So, a Su-35, Su-30MKI and a Su-30MKK and so on and so forth.

Anyway, by the time the Brazilians make any decision to join the FGFA program, we would already be in the final stages of the program and the possibility of a third version may become even more clear. So, Brazil will become an important export customer and will help reduce the total price of the program, something that both India and Russia sorely need. So, this move will be welcomed by MoD.

Is this news a matter of concern to us (India) ?
Of course, it is. It will make us a net exporter of defence products and bring in foreign exchange.

Anyway, this looks like a Russian maneuver to sweeten the Brazilian MRCA deal since the Su-35 was kicked out. Overall, and this is important, the deal will be a "Buy the Su-35 and we will offer a later version of the FGFA when the time comes to replace the Su-35, or progress to the FGFA once ready in a separate deal."

So, this has no inkling to the actual FGFA contract we have with Russia.

The Americans had offered a similar deal to us in our MRCA. "Buy the F-16 and we can sell the F-35 in the future, to replace them."
 

kseeker

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Re: Russia to Offer Brazil Stake in Future Advanced Fighter Project Pa

According to what we know, we don't yet have any kind of agreement with Russia regarding FGFA because the final R&D contract is yet to be signed. But we do know that Russia has been making noises about PMF or FGFA being the export version of PAKFA.

So once we have signed the contract and some details are out, only then can we know if it is actually violating any of our agreements. As of today, according to open source info, FGFA was always supposed to be exported. The plan was to manufacture at least 1000 of them with 200 for Russia, 200 for India and the remaining 600 for export. PAKFA would be a separate project with its own set of orders, out of which 60 have been ordered.



This was your first question but I moved it down because it cannot be answered without answering the above question first.

It depends, due to the fact that we do not know if a third version will be made for export that is a mix of PAKFA and FGFA, in case India and Russia decide that the Indian version of FGFA will be for Indian use alone.

The thing is PAKFA and FGFA are currently not so different from one another. It is confirmed that the airframe, engine and some core avionics will be the same. PAKFA may carry some unique Russian avionics while FGFA may carry Indian avionics like the 360 degree radar. For the third version, customers may be asked to choose certain electronics from either countries and perhaps an export version may be made depending on the finances of the customers.

So, a Su-35, Su-30MKI and a Su-30MKK and so on and so forth.

Anyway, by the time the Brazilians make any decision to join the FGFA program, we would already be in the final stages of the program and the possibility of a third version may become even more clear. So, Brazil will become an important export customer and will help reduce the total price of the program, something that both India and Russia sorely need. So, this move will be welcomed by MoD.



Of course, it is. It will make us a net exporter of defence products and bring in foreign exchange.

Anyway, this looks like a Russian maneuver to sweeten the Brazilian MRCA deal since the Su-35 was kicked out. Overall, and this is important, the deal will be a "Buy the Su-35 and we will offer a later version of the FGFA when the time comes to replace the Su-35, or progress to the FGFA once ready in a separate deal."

So, this has no inkling to the actual FGFA contract we have with Russia.

The Americans had offered a similar deal to us in our MRCA. "Buy the F-16 and we can sell the F-35 in the future, to replace them."
Thanks for the elucidations :)
 

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