Russia refuses technology transfer for Smerch rockets to India

[Bangalorean]

Small arms, assault rifles, pistols, should never be opened to private manufacturers. That is one of the dumbest ideas one could come up with. Give it to private companies, and see the proliferation of such arms to Naxalites. Private companies will go to any extent for money.

Certainly not. I don't see the L&T and Tatas and Reliances (yes, even Reliance) officially authorizing sale of weapons to Naxalites. India has extremely tough gun control laws. Naxalites get their weapons by theft and smuggling. They cannot and do not buy their weapons on the market. The entry of private manufacturers will not change this.

And anyway, a babu in a government factory is as susceptible (some would say more) to bribery by Naxals as an employee of Reliance or L&T. If you claim that the private companies will officially sell weapons to Naxals to "earn more money", it is just an extension of marxist Nehruvian suspicion of private enterprise which has no basis, which refuses to leave the consciousness.

 

[Dovah]

Small arms, assault rifles, pistols, should never be opened to private manufacturers. That is one of the dumbest ideas one could come up with. Give it to private companies, and see the proliferation of such arms to Naxalites. Private companies will go to any extent for money.

Dude, Naxals don't have a shortage of small arms anyway, Pakis and the Chinese make sure of that. Plus, Naxals would always prefer sourcing their weapons from abroad, too easier to track them if they buy it in house. Supplying to Naxals would be more trouble than it is worth for private companies and they won't risk it if it means losing out far greater government contracts.

 

[ghost]

Amazed to see the Russia bashing going on and more over smerch bashing going on in this thread.(which is a good and battle proven MBRL)

Would like to make few points.
Russia is our friend and strategic partner,it has in no way adopted us.That we expect Russia to breast feed us, and to make us strong on its own cost.
What should we expect from a good friend?to support our stand in international matter:which it does,to use veto power in UN for us:which it does.To provide us assistance in fields where others don't want to eg nuclear sumbraine,FGFA,....:which it does.To be there for us at critical time:which it does.And etc etc .

Now what some Indians are expecting :Russia should develop a weapon with great hard work ,then it should transfer all the technology and know how to us and allow us to produce as many as we want and Russia should "dalo a achar to its arm factory" as its best friend is India who also happens to be the biggest customer of the defence products which Russian have developed ,and foolishly they intend to earn some money by exporting them.Really how selfish of them.They should just allow us all the know how of the rockets so that our ---- could use that knowledge and develop Pinnnaka 3 and then sell it to others and using it ourself :Russians ka arms business gya tel lene .Their sole purpose is to develop tech and give it to India .So that India could earn some money by developing products and exporting them out of it.RIGHT

Just like we Indians do and will do in future .We will supply all the tech of brahmos,lch,dhruv,arjun,pinnaka to our friend countries , so that they do not have to spend money on purchasing these from us, rather they should produce as much they want, and even develop and sell similar platform to other countries.And prime work of DRDO should be to develop tech for India and all of its friends,as it will be immoral to earn money from our friends we should do DEFENCE SOCIAL SERVICE.

On a serious note self reliance is important for India and we should aim for it,but i think this Russia bashing is needless and wrong.Russia is doing what any other country would have done including India.When it comes to us have we setup factories of insas in Nepal so that they could produce as much they want?Without having the need to purchase from us .After all, Nepal is our brother nation.It's ok when we reject Russian weapons and go for weapons from France,US and other countries which are main competitor of Russian arms?Where does our friendship goes at such time?It's ok for us but when it comes to Russia first we will not purchase their weapon, then we will expect them to not sell these weapon to big customer like Pakistan and China, who would pay handsome amount for them,just coz we do not wish so.WAH BHI WAH CHIT BHI MERI PAT BHI MERI.So Russia is justified in what it has done."Apne pet pe khud koi lat nahi marta" giving ur hard develop tech to some one, so that he uses it to develop similar tech, which he could sell to others on high prices while you sit home with closed shop .Nobody does that.

And our friendship with Russia is much more than just arms,weapons.We need someone who can be trusted,depend upon in hard times,expect to watch ur back , when everybody turns against you then being able to stand with you for you.And that my friend is Russia.Remove Russia ,what are you left with ?Us:who put sanction on drop of a hat,who would sell you out if someone is offering good price for it.France:who will not share important defence tech,who at the end of day is more loyal to European union than you,cannot be trusted when the going gets tough.Israel:which has no free will as it is dependent on US wish.Germany and Japan:are they worthy enough that you will go for them at the cost of ur decades old tried and tested friendship if yes then good.So friends the day drdo starts distributing its tot to all our friendly nations ,so that they could produce and develop on their own rather then buying from us,at that moment i would join you in shaming Russia.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Sir Jee Arihant nuclear Submarine , Brahmos ,T72 ,Bmp2 ,Su30 MKI .the level of technology Russia is ready to share with India none other country will ever do in near future but you can't them for granted they have there interest too . The problem is our gov Org are not interested in absorbing the technology.
Take the example of boforce Guns ,they had the blueprints for the guns with them as the gun came with full TOT but they sat on them for years shamelessly & when things got hot ,they pulled the documents from the drawers realizing they had got the TOT at that time .

Full tot has not been given on most of these compare Russian t90 to India's.

 

[pmaitra]

Certainly not. I don't see the L&T and Tatas and Reliances (yes, even Reliance) officially authorizing sale of weapons to Naxalites. India has extremely tough gun control laws. Naxalites get their weapons by theft and smuggling. They cannot and do not buy their weapons on the market. The entry of private manufacturers will not change this.

And anyway, a babu in a government factory is as susceptible (some would say more) to bribery by Naxals as an employee of Reliance or L&T. If you claim that the private companies will officially sell weapons to Naxals to "earn more money", it is just an extension of marxist Nehruvian suspicion of private enterprise which has no basis, which refuses to leave the consciousness.

You should foresee a lot of things. All the more if something similar has happened in the past.

Dude, Naxals don't have a shortage of small arms anyway, Pakis and the Chinese make sure of that. Plus, Naxals would always prefer sourcing their weapons from abroad, too easier to track them if they buy it in house. Supplying to Naxals would be more trouble than it is worth for private companies and they won't risk it if it means losing out far greater government contracts.

Despite tough laws, things happen.

In the light of the Assam government's charges that Tata Tea paid the medical and travel bills of insurgents belonging to the United Liberation Front of Asom (ULFA), it would be easy to conclude that the company is bankrolling terrorism.

Read more at: 'ULFA's extortion must be met by a responsive state and a responsible industry' : EDITOR'S NOTE - India Today

 

[pmaitra]

Full tot has not been given on most of these compare Russian t90 to India's.

T-90 is an anecdotal case, LF.

We should seriously focus on inducting more Arjuns (Mark I or II), and put a full stop on further T-90 procurement.

Regarding several other areas, no country has given us more ToT than the USSR/Russia. When Smerch ToT is denied, we make a big noise out of it. Whatever Russia gave, it gave, for their economic reasons, and not because we were entitled to it. Since we have started to shift our business to the US, Russia is responding.

At the end of the day, India will have to learn to build everything on Indian soil. We cannot keep buying arms or arms-ToT forever. Plagiarizing is not a good idea, and I do not condone it; but, when it comes to the defense of the land, if that is the way, we have to take it.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

We need one administration, possibly this one to start building a military industrial infrastructure.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Ministry of Defence signed two contracts in December 2005 and March 2007
with M/s Rosoboronexport, Russia for import of a total number of 42
SMERCH Multi Barrel Rocket Launcher System (MBRLS) at the total cost
aggregating Rs 2633 crore

The trials of the system were conducted in three phases between June and
August 2002 prior to conclusion of contract in December 2005. In the General
Staff Evaluation (GSE) of the trials, the Director General Quality Assurance
(DGQA) (L) observed that electronic components should be able to function
in operating environment specification of minus 40ºC to plus 50ºC. However,
the maximum temperature recorded during trials was stated to be up to 36ºC
only when the trials were conducted. The need for verification of these aspects
before finalization of contract was emphasized in the GSE.

Seven out of thirteen SOCRIG failed completely during exploitation of sub
systems. As one sub system costs Rs 50 lakh and is critical for the accuracy of
the system, the matter was taken up with the supplier who suggested to carry
out the product improvement by installing a cooling system at the cost of
buyer.

One of the possible reasons for the failure of SOCRIG was attributed to high
temperature ( 36ºC ) prevailing in Indian field conditions which suggested that despite
the apprehensions expressed during trial evaluation the system was not tested
at the temperatures stipulated in the contract.

The sub-system DTE is fitted in LV, TLV, CSV and MET Complex for
encrypted data communication. Eleven DTEs each costing Rs 25 lakh reported
complete/partial failures due to defect in the internal component. The
equipment is critical for the reliability of the system since complete
automation depends on it.

The contract provided for PDI by the DGQA and sixteen personnel were
trained in Russia to carry out inspection. The PDI could not be carried out
properly as the team members were not exposed to the weapon system in the
short training.

The PDI team involved in inspection of the LVs etc was not permitted by the
vendor to carry out live firing from the LV (9A – 52 – 2T) supplied owing to
defective wording of the contract.

Source : http://saiindia.gov.in/english/home..._2011/Defence_Services/Report_no_12/chap2.pdf

====================

Failures in Launch Vehicles

In respect of the LVs the failures in tw
o hydro pneumatic device which acts as
a lifting and balancing mechanism of the LV and cost Rs 25 lakh each

==================

Failures in sub system of launch vehicle - SOCRIG

Seven out of thirteen SOCRIG failed completely during exploitation of sub
systems. As one sub system costs Rs 50 lakh and is critical for the accuracy of
the system,

==================

Failure of Data Transmission Equipment (DTE)

The sub-system DTE is fitted in LV, TLV, CSV and MET Complex for
encrypted data communication. Eleven DTEs each costing Rs 25 lakh reported
complete/partial failures due to defect in the internal component.

==================

Deficiencies in Communication system

Radio Set R 171 M supplied by the vendor has a tuning system which was
reported to be more defect prone than other sub systems of radio sets and also
had reduced range.

================
================
================
================

Bottom of my boots " battle proven MBRL "

Amazed to see the Russia bashing going on and more over smerch bashing going on in this thread.(which is a good and battle proven MBRL)

 

[Bangalorean]

You should foresee a lot of things. All the more if something similar has happened in the past.

Despite tough laws, things happen.

Read more at: 'ULFA's extortion must be met by a responsive state and a responsible industry' : EDITOR'S NOTE - India Today

Why don't we completely stop manufacturing any weaponry at all? That is the only way to ensure that it doesn't get into terrorist hands, right? Oh, wait!

You said, "private companies will go to any extent to earn money", and then you show me this article which speaks of extortion by ULFA. Guess what - even your neighbourhood chaiwala and dhaba walas pay hafta to police as well as goons. Whose fault is it?

 

[pmaitra]

Why don't we completely stop manufacturing any weaponry at all? That is the only way to ensure that it doesn't get into terrorist hands, right? Oh, wait!

I said what I said. It was about small arms. What you are talking about is all weapons. I think you need to debate with the person who would has talked about all weapons, not me.

You said, "private companies will go to any extent to earn money", and then you show me this article which speaks of extortion by ULFA. Guess what - even your neighbourhood chaiwala and dhaba walas pay hafta to police as well as goons. Whose fault is it?

Absolutely. Privatization will not solve any problem. Individual honesty will. Just because you are a proponent of privatization, does not make them impeccable.

Our local petrol pumps used be supplied by Bharat Petroleum tankers. The supplied diesel would be adulterated. Then they started to hire private transporters. No change. The supplied diesel continued to be adulterated. Oh, how much i miss the days when the Railway catering service was government owned. With privatization, everything has gone for a toss. Just a few examples. Does not apply everywhere, but the point stands, private companies are for money, not philanthropy.

I am sorry, I do not share your optimism about private companies.

We can agree to disagree.

 

[ghost]

Ministry of Defence signed two contracts in December 2005 and March 2007
with M/s Rosoboronexport, Russia for import of a total number of 42
SMERCH Multi Barrel Rocket Launcher System (MBRLS) at the total cost
aggregating Rs 2633 crore

The trials of the system were conducted in three phases between June and
August 2002 prior to conclusion of contract in December 2005. In the General
Staff Evaluation (GSE) of the trials, the Director General Quality Assurance
(DGQA) (L) observed that electronic components should be able to function
in operating environment specification of minus 40ºC to plus 50ºC. However,
the maximum temperature recorded during trials was stated to be up to 36ºC
only when the trials were conducted. The need for verification of these aspects
before finalization of contract was emphasized in the GSE.

Seven out of thirteen SOCRIG failed completely during exploitation of sub
systems. As one sub system costs Rs 50 lakh and is critical for the accuracy of
the system, the matter was taken up with the supplier who suggested to carry
out the product improvement by installing a cooling system at the cost of
buyer.

One of the possible reasons for the failure of SOCRIG was attributed to high
temperature ( 36ºC ) prevailing in Indian field conditions which suggested that despite
the apprehensions expressed during trial evaluation the system was not tested
at the temperatures stipulated in the contract.

The sub-system DTE is fitted in LV, TLV, CSV and MET Complex for
encrypted data communication. Eleven DTEs each costing Rs 25 lakh reported
complete/partial failures due to defect in the internal component. The
equipment is critical for the reliability of the system since complete
automation depends on it.

The contract provided for PDI by the DGQA and sixteen personnel were
trained in Russia to carry out inspection. The PDI could not be carried out
properly as the team members were not exposed to the weapon system in the
short training.

The PDI team involved in inspection of the LVs etc was not permitted by the
vendor to carry out live firing from the LV (9A – 52 – 2T) supplied owing to
defective wording of the contract.

Source : http://saiindia.gov.in/english/home..._2011/Defence_Services/Report_no_12/chap2.pdf

====================

Failures in Launch Vehicles

In respect of the LVs the failures in tw
o hydro pneumatic device which acts as
a lifting and balancing mechanism of the LV and cost Rs 25 lakh each

==================

Failures in sub system of launch vehicle - SOCRIG

Seven out of thirteen SOCRIG failed completely during exploitation of sub
systems. As one sub system costs Rs 50 lakh and is critical for the accuracy of
the system,

==================

Failure of Data Transmission Equipment (DTE)

The sub-system DTE is fitted in LV, TLV, CSV and MET Complex for
encrypted data communication. Eleven DTEs each costing Rs 25 lakh reported
complete/partial failures due to defect in the internal component.

==================

Deficiencies in Communication system

Radio Set R 171 M supplied by the vendor has a tuning system which was
reported to be more defect prone than other sub systems of radio sets and also
had reduced range.

================
================
================
================

Bottom of my boots " battle proven MBRL "

Agree the facts you stated are true.But then Smerch is operated by 13+ countries ,among which UAE,Baharain,Morocco,Algeria and many other countries which have more warmer climate than ours.No one else had complained of these malfunction. Battle proven because Smerch has been used by Russian in both the Chechen wars and Georgia war successfully and they are even being used by Syrian forces right now.

Further "Russia's official response appears to be that the firing system issues have been isolated instances, in systems that were tested by India before receipt. In other words, it's India's problem, and probably India's fault. " India’s $500M Smerch-M Order: From Russia, With… Love?

Indian defence scientists have successfully tested the Russian-manufactured Smerch (Tornado) Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS).
At least five tests, which gauged flight stability, accuracy and consistency, were held at the Integrated Test Range (ITR) in Chandipur.Mighty India Power: Indian military tests Smerch MLRS

I am sure the defects have been rectified by cooperation of both the parties involved.This still does not take away from the fact, that smerch is a highly powerful and capable mlrs which would give a major boost to Indian army fire power.I am sure you are quite aware of the capability of smerch as a system.Remember Indians were successfully able to crash brand new c130j ,which is touted as crash proof all over the world.So does this make 130j unreliable? The absence of suitable material handling equipment led to damage of four smerch rockets and resultant loss of Rs 2.36 crore. This shows how we maintain our equipment.

I am not saying Russians can't be at fault ,if they are , they should deal with it .It is just that i still believe smerch to be a good weapon system unless similar problems are faced by other user of this MRLS ,as it would make it clear that the defect is in the weapon system in itself and not in some batches which has been supplied to India.

 

[Santu]

Sir , Here the discussion is not about capability or reliability of Smerch.. It's a proven system.. Yes it's true that we don't have right to ask ToT for every thing.
But now one is stopping us from reverse engineer a bit and use the some of the tech in our Pinaka System to make it world class.. That's what we ned to do now.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Pinaka 2 or Israeli LORA can be good alternatives. Russia has a Long history of
Selling hardware and then holding back parts .

 

[Pulkit]

Friend we are not Chinese + We have a trust and standard in the world regarding all this reverse engg thing......
Our Pinaka is in itself world class which will mature with time....

Sir , Here the discussion is not about capability or reliability of Smerch.. It's a proven system.. Yes it's true that we don't have right to ask ToT for every thing.
But now one is stopping us from reverse engineer a bit and use the some of the tech in our Pinaka System to make it world class.. That's what we ned to do now.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Nothing hold more water than CAG report, It crystal and clear about faults their is nothing to argue over that ..

I am not into some article pro Russian arm lobby posted in 2008 where as the CAG report is from 2010-11 ..

===========

While you have to agree to the CAG report at the same time you are call India`s fault, Are feeling you insecure somewhere ?

Agree the facts you stated are true. But then Smerch is operated by 13+ countries ,among which UAE,Baharain,Morocco,Algeria and many other countries which have more warmer climate than ours.

it's India's problem, and probably India's fault

Indian defence scientists have successfully tested the Russian-manufactured Smerch (Tornado) Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS).At least five tests, which gauged flight stability, accuracy and consistency, were held at the Integrated Test Range (ITR) in Chandipur.Mighty India Power: Indian military tests Smerch MLRS.

 

[Jagdish58]

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/62224-cag-exposes-iaf-import-air-force.html

 

[ghost]

Nothing hold more water than CAG report, It crystal and clear about faults their is nothing to argue over that ..

I am not into some article pro Russian arm lobby posted in 2008 where as the CAG report is from 2010-11 ..

===========

While you have to agree to the CAG report at the same time you are call India`s fault,

First calling India's fault was quoted from the article ,but since i quoted ,I will owe it up.And since nothing hold more water than CAG report ,from CAG report "It was further noticed in audit that defective clause in contract and
shortcomings in Pre-Despatch Inspection (PDI)/improper inspection as
enumerated in succeeding paragraphs had resulted in import of defective
SMERCH MBRLS. " hence CAG implies that there was defect in some of the MBRLS imported due to India fault for not carrying out proper PDI AND DEFECTIVE CONTRACT,it does not question smerch as a system ,as it has done with milan missile in the same report.http://saiindia.gov.in/english/home/Our_Products/Audit_report/Government_Wise/union_audit/recent_reports/union_compliance/2010_2011/Defence_Services/Report_no_12/chap2.pdf

You have questioned Smerch as a system ,where as i have said that it might be possible that we have imported some defective piece,but you can't question smerch as a system,unless other countries complain of similar malfunctions.In the same report it has been stated that most of the defects were rectified by Russians.The news i have quoted ,which was also there in all the leading news agency stating that, successful test of smerch mrls have been carried out by Indian scientist can't be planted by lobbies,as a successful test at the famous missile firing range of Chandipur can't be made up.This shows that Indians have tested SMERCH and have declared it successful.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Learn to read first, From the same report it is posted " The contract provided for PDI by the DGQA and sixteen personnel were
trained in Russia to carry out inspection. The PDI could not be carried out properly as the team members were not exposed to the weapon system in the short training. "

The system is plagued by multiple faults hence the system failed, Not even tested under given conditions, This is according to CAG report, End of discussion ..

============

CAG report is 2010-11 dated where as Falsely claimed article is from 2008, Don`t beat it again ..

First calling India's fault was quoted from the article ,but since i quoted ,I will owe it up.And since nothing hold more water than CAG report ,from CAG report "It was further noticed in audit that defective clause in contract and
shortcomings in Pre-Despatch Inspection (PDI)/improper inspection as
enumerated in succeeding paragraphs had resulted in import of defective
SMERCH MBRLS. " hence CAG implies that there was defect in some of the MBRLS imported due to India fault for not carrying out proper PDI AND DEFECTIVE CONTRACT,it does not question smerch as a system ,as it has done with milan missile in the same report.http://saiindia.gov.in/english/home/Our_Products/Audit_report/Government_Wise/union_audit/recent_reports/union_compliance/2010_2011/Defence_Services/Report_no_12/chap2.pdf

successful test at the famous missile firing range of Chandipur can't be made up.This shows that Indians have tested SMERCH and have declared it successful.

 

[ghost]

Sir , Here the discussion is not about capability or reliability of Smerch.. It's a proven system.. Yes it's true that we don't have right to ask ToT for every thing.
But now one is stopping us from reverse engineer a bit and use the some of the tech in our Pinaka System to make it world class.. That's what we ned to do now.

Sir ,reverse engineering is not so simple as we think.One need a good arms manufacturing base,skills and knowledge to reverse engineer weapons.Every country uses good technology of others to develop their products, if they are able to get hold of it,plus foreign firms always rightly accuse DRDO of not being able to absorb the technology they transfer to it,so forget about reverse engineering .Of course India cannot be like china and copy entire weapon system as it is.As India does not believe in misusing others trust,this also benefit us as unlike China, countries are more willing to share their tot and advance technology with India,as we respect the terms and conditions.

I am no expert ,but if you ask me ,I would like to see India and Brazil developing weapon system in collaboration.If we could include Israeli it would be great,but Israel is controlled by America so not likely instead Japan can be a good choice .

 

[Jagdish58]

Sir ,reverse engineering is not so simple as we think.One need a good arms manufacturing base,skills and knowledge to reverse engineer weapons.Every country uses good technology of others to develop their products, if they are able to get hold of it,plus foreign firms always rightly accuse DRDO of not being able to absorb the technology they transfer to it,so forget about reverse engineering .Of course India cannot be like china and copy entire weapon system as it is.As India does not believe in misusing others trust,this also benefit us as unlike China, countries are more willing to share their tot and advance technology with India,as we respect the terms and conditions.

But we make fun of chinese on reverse engineering as even that is not easy at all , coming back to TOT no country will do 100% tech transfer there will be some kind of bug to use are bargain chip in future

if they do give 100% tech that might be outdated , So india can amalgamate Smerch tech with Pinaka & come up with new version yes there are many hurdles like Fund , reasource , expertise , production & testing base etc

but instead of begging for TOT or import from russia we can give a try domestically

I read in an article in early 2000 after pokhran blast due to sanction Martin baker was not able to sell the fightet pilot seat to LCA project DRDO teamed up with some local company in pune an desinged , tested the seat par with Martin baker quality

When going gets tough the tough gets going, india should shy away from this buyer seller mutual trust and look for its personal growth