Russia-Pakistan Rapproachment

[LETHALFORCE]

Re: India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal

I disagree one million engineers in India should be enough to do this, it is lack of political will,corruption
And no security vision in the leadership.

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

Re: India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal

Does tendering matter.

Lethal weapons are sold by France to Pakistan and so is Russia planning to do now.

Those weapons with be used against India and the matter of tendering or not will not affect casualties that may occur.

Therefore, if India is to protest against Russia selling to Pakistan, then India should also protest when France sells to Pakistan.

That is what I am meaning.

sir, I mean we give special treatment to russia. If russian equipments put in tender, most of them will lose to western countries
.
I don't have any problem if russian do like french and sell weapons to pakis. But then russian should apply for tender and this will affect their half of investment

 

[Singh]

Re: India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal

India should make a counter proposal to ditch that Chinook, and instead procure a batch of Mil-26T2, along with a good supply of spares. As a matter of fact, India could negotiate setting up a factory in India for building the Mil-26T2, which will not only satisfy India's strategic lift requirements, but also generate jobs in India.

That's exactly what Russia wants. India should get scared and come running back to the Russian camp.

 

[rock127]

Re: India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal

That's exactly what Russia wants. India should get scared and come running back to the Russian camp.

Would not be a good tactic for Russia since sooner or later Indian defense infra would(should) develop thus relying less on foreign stuff.

This blackmail might work a bit in the initial stage but in the long run it would help India learn why and how important is to be self reliant.

Russia needs a strong partner with good economy(India/China/Brazil) and not a terrorist failed states like Pakistan.The last thing Russians want is to see Chechans getting support from Pakis.

 

[Singh]

Re: India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal

Would not be a good tactic for Russia since sooner or later Indian defense infra would(should) develop thus relying less on foreign stuff.

This blackmail might work a bit in the initial stage but in the long run it would help India learn why and how important is to be self reliant.

Russia needs a strong partner with good economy(India/China/Brazil) and not a terrorist failed states like Pakistan.The last thing Russians want is to see Chechans getting support from Pakis.

Pak operates a lot of Russian equipment via China.

India can easily come up with a clause. Any country exporting arms equipment to an enemy country will be automatically put on Blacklist.

PS: Blackmail doesn't work eitherways Russia did sell RD-93 to Pak @p2prada India didn't go with Russia for many deals.

 

[tarunraju]

Re: India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal

Didn't we cross red-lines when we chose American and French 'lethal equipment' ? Also didn't the US cross that line long back by selling F-16s to Pakistan? Last I checked, F-16s don't transport Fedex packages.

 

[nirranj]

Re: India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal

The French are selling Mistrals to the Russians... Russians are selling hordes of equipment to China. There are no red lines. It is high time we spend more on increasing our own RnD capacity and become indigenous in developing and producing whatever we want.. We have the population that can support with manpower...

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Re: India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal

Pak operates a lot of Russian equipment via China.

India can easily come up with a clause. Any country exporting arms equipment to an enemy country will be automatically put on Blacklist.

PS: Blackmail doesn't work eitherways Russia did sell RD-93 to Pak @p2prada India didn't go with Russia for many deals.

We still bought more sukhois singed pakfa and doubled t90 order. I do not see where russians
We're punished?

 

[pmaitra]

Re: India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal

Would not be a good tactic for Russia since sooner or later Indian defense infra would(should) develop thus relying less on foreign stuff.

This blackmail might work a bit in the initial stage but in the long run it would help India learn why and how important is to be self reliant.

Russia needs a strong partner with good economy(India/China/Brazil) and not a terrorist failed states like Pakistan.The last thing Russians want is to see Chechans getting support from Pakis.

That is the goal. Self sufficiency. India should look to achieve a state where almost everything is made in India, including the components.

The only way to do this is to work closely with Russia and pay for ToT. In the long run, it will save us a lot of money. This will also work with Israel, but as Israeli-US relations sour, Israel will slowly become less productive in producing high end armaments.

Pak operates a lot of Russian equipment via China.

India can easily come up with a clause. Any country exporting arms equipment to an enemy country will be automatically put on Blacklist.

PS: Blackmail doesn't work eitherways Russia did sell RD-93 to Pak @p2prada India didn't go with Russia for many deals.

That would put an end to all arms imports from USA and Germany.

Bottom line is this post:

The French are selling Mistrals to the Russians... Russians are selling hordes of equipment to China. There are no red lines. It is high time we spend more on increasing our own RnD capacity and become indigenous in developing and producing whatever we want.. We have the population that can support with manpower...

 

[rock127]

Re: India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal

That is the goal. Self sufficiency. India should look to achieve a state where almost everything is made in India, including the components.

The only way to do this is to work closely with Russia and pay for ToT. In the long run, it will save us a lot of money. This will also work with Israel, but as Israeli-US relations sour, Israel will slowly become less productive in producing high end armaments.

That would put an end to all arms imports from USA and Germany.

Bottom line is this post:

Please explain this a bit.

 

[Singh]

Re: India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal

We still bought more sukhois singed pakfa and doubled t90 order. I do not see where russians
We're punished?

MMRCAs Poseidons Apaches etc. Russia is no longer the preferred supplier.

==

That would put an end to all arms imports from USA and Germany.

Absolutely not. Either you supply to a broke ass country like Pak or you supply to one of the biggest buyer of arms. Choice is simple.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Re: India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal

@Singh

I still think pakfa will be a big problem. This is the big one for the concern.

 

[Singh]

Re: India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal

@Singh

I still think pakfa will be a big problem. This is the big one for the concern.

Order F-35s too just in case and remain a partner in Pak-Fa too, and atleast on paper do some development on an indigenous stealth plane.

Russia knows that India will go for advanced products.
Russia knows that India cannot do a China on them.
Russia knows that if they try to win Pakistani market <1/100th India's size they will lose more market share in India.

Its just signalling.

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

Re: India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal

Their are other problems too except pakfa like MTA, brahmos, engine tot of su30mki,kudankulam nuclear plant , super sukhoi.

 

[pmaitra]

Re: India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal

Absolutely not. Either you supply to a broke ass country like Pak or you supply to one of the biggest buyer of arms. Choice is simple.

Right, either you supply F-16s to Pakistan, or supply Chinooks to India. Choice is simple.

Just read what you yourself have written:

Pak operates a lot of Russian equipment via China.

India can easily come up with a clause. Any country exporting arms equipment to an enemy country will be automatically put on Blacklist.

PS: Blackmail doesn't work eitherways Russia did sell RD-93 to Pak @p2prada India didn't go with Russia for many deals.

 

[Singh]

Re: India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal

Right, either you supply F-16s to Pakistan, or supply Chinooks to India. Choice is simple.

Just read what you yourself have written:

I am not saying India should come with a 1-line contract, Indians are known to draft contracts which are epitome of sophistry.

Specific clauses can be invoked or rubbished at an opportune time. If Russia wants to supply Pakistan fine, but when a big contract comes tell them, sorry but since you did supply to Pakistan you are at a penalty or you are barred. And when it suits you, invoke clauses which allow them to compete.

 

[pmaitra]

Re: India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal

I am not saying India should come with a 1-line contract, Indians are known to draft contracts which are epitome of sophistry.

Specific clauses can be invoked or rubbished at an opportune time. If Russia wants to supply Pakistan fine, but when a big contract comes tell them, sorry but since you did supply to Pakistan you are at a penalty or you are barred. And when it suits you, invoke clauses which allow them to compete.

Ideally, that clause should be applied to every country. Ideally, that is.

Practically, it is impossible, because, India has not reached a high level of self sufficiency. If we close the door on one country, we take away competition for a rival country. PRC can play such games. Their military industry is way more sophisticated than ours. We cannot afford to play such games.

 

[Singh]

Re: India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal

Ideally, that clause should be applied to every country. Ideally, that is.

Practically, it is impossible, because, India has not reached a high level of self sufficiency. If we close the door on one country, we take away competition for a rival country. PRC can play such games. Their military industry is way more sophisticated than ours. We cannot afford to play such games.

Au contraire only we can "afford" it. We are one of the largest defence markets in the world, and we are aligned with every major power in the world save China.

There is no need to close doors. Its a carrot and stick policy. If you supply to Pakistan, you get penalized.

 

[pmaitra]

Re: India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal

Au contraire only we can "afford" it. We are one of the largest defence markets in the world, and we are aligned with every major power in the world save China.

There is no need to close doors. Its a carrot and stick policy. If you supply to Pakistan, you get penalized.

I beg to disagree.

India simply cannot afford to play such games.

Here is the reality with that "if you supply to Pakistan, you get penalized," policy:

US plans $280 million military aid to Pakistan, cuts civilian aid (Mar 5, 2014, 12.33 PM IST)

Happy to be proven wrong. Only time will tell.

 

[Singh]

Re: India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal

I beg to disagree.

India simply cannot afford to play such games.

Here is the reality with that "if you supply to Pakistan, you get penalized," policy:

US plans $280 million military aid to Pakistan, cuts civilian aid (Mar 5, 2014, 12.33 PM IST)

Happy to be proven wrong. Only time will tell.

Disagree how and why ?

If any country supplies weapons to Pakistan, India should get scared and give them even more money for weapons fso that they don't blackmail India by also selling their wares to Pakistan ?

If I am writing the big cheques, I also get to dictate. If US thinks giving aid to Pakistan is much more profitable than selling 10-20billion $ weapons to India, then US should continue to give aid to Pak.