Russia Formalises Su-35 Offer To India

[jakojako777]

JJ, Mig and Sukhoi are rivals after all. Mig has put its money on the MIG-35 because it gives it a edge in the Indian MMRCA program where it is a competitor. Sukhoi is more preoccupied with the PAK-FA project and has put all its money on it and hence it is using the SU-35 BM as a technology demonstrator testbed for the PAK-FA program, so it doesn't have an AESA radar as yet. The PAK-FA is slated to have an all new AESA radar, and this might be incorporated on the SU-35. Anyway, as i had said, the IAF is already considering a major upgrade for the MKI, including an AESA radar, modified engine and avionics.

India Ordering, Modernizing SU-30MKIs?

Thanks for the precisions but you have basically said (in better English)what I have already said before you.

(Accept that detail that they are "competition"(?)- perhaps in heads of MIG constructors who lost primacy to Mikhail Pogosyan and Sukhoi but in reality they are ONE COMPANY NOW (UAC)and their UAC boss Alexey I. Fedorov - would NOT agree with you at least when they don't compete on same project !)

The problem is that you didn't say anything about ONLY thing I really don't know and really want to hear form anybody -

Will SU-35BM have (PAK FGFA) AESA instead of Irbis-E and if yes WHEN?

Instead you put cream of cake( I didn't ask) with your (patriotic) speculation that SU-30MKI will end up wit AESA (absolutely non confirmed)and very elegantly you silenced that detail about SU-35BM being "AESA test bead" logically they WILL TEST AESA(already ANNOUNCED for the next year) on SU35 therefore it is logical that SU35-BM also HAS that AESA once radar is ready.

I'm not Russian or Indian I just need facts and by simple logic I do NOT see why
would SU-30MKI have AESA before SU-35BM ?!!

I don't want to sound un-friendly but I don't see point in this running in circles
I was not talking about SU-30MKI upgrades I was asking about SU-35BM AESA and I don't see logical reason for SU-35BM not to have one........:thank_you2:

I imagine that India would LOVE to have SU-30MKI upgraded to quality of SU-35BM for the price of SU-30MKI but I think that will probably stay only a wish...

 

[jakojako777]

"SU-35 BM as a technology demonstrator testbed for the PAK-FA program, so it doesn't have an AESA radar as yet"





not to forget -PAK FGFA AESA prototype is already built shown on MAX2009 (?) scheduled for the test flights next year:sporty55:

 

[Agantrope]

IMHO Su-35BM and Su-47 will be technology demonstrator and the learning platform for the Su T-50, PAKFA, and for FGFA (The wings of the both flights will tell the story when compared with T-50).

It is better to keep the fingers crossed on Su-35.

 

[marcos98]

HERES AN INFO ARTICLE ABOUT SU-35

 

[sandeepdg]

Thanks for the precisions but you have basically said (in better English)what I have already said before you.

(Accept that detail that they are "competition"(?)- perhaps in heads of MIG constructors who lost primacy to Mikhail Pogosyan and Sukhoi but in reality they are ONE COMPANY NOW (UAC)and their UAC boss Alexey I. Fedorov - would NOT agree with you at least when they don't compete on same project !)

The problem is that you didn't say anything about ONLY thing I really don't know and really want to hear form anybody -

Will SU-35BM have (PAK FGFA) AESA instead of Irbis-E and if yes WHEN?

Instead you put cream of cake( I didn't ask) with your (patriotic) speculation that SU-30MKI will end up wit AESA (absolutely non confirmed)and very elegantly you silenced that detail about SU-35BM being "AESA test bead" logically they WILL TEST AESA(already ANNOUNCED for the next year) on SU35 therefore it is logical that SU35-BM also HAS that AESA once radar is ready.

I'm not Russian or Indian I just need facts and by simple logic I do NOT see why
would SU-30MKI have AESA before SU-35BM ?!!

I don't want to sound un-friendly but I don't see point in this running in circles
I was not talking about SU-30MKI upgrades I was asking about SU-35BM AESA and I don't see logical reason for SU-35BM not to have one........:thank_you2:

I imagine that India would LOVE to have SU-30MKI upgraded to quality of SU-35BM for the price of SU-30MKI but I think that will probably stay only a wish...

Well, i didn't know about UAC, now i do and thanks for pointing that out, mate !! As for your question regarding the SU-35BM having an AESA radar, I would say that as of now no news is available as to whether or not SU-35BM will have an AESA radar. From what is known from the Russians, even future productions of SU35BM will have an improved Irbis-E radar with a more powerful search ability. I know that a new AESA has been developed for the PAKFA by the Russian institute NIIP that was showcased at MAKS '09, but i only speculated when i said that it might be incorporated into the SU35BM as long as the PAKFA does not come online. About your question that the SU30 MKI having an AESA before SU-35BM, it has no logic as what the Russians do with the SU35BM is upto them, we can wish for it(AESA) and wishes can come true with money which won't be much of a problem for the IAF !! The IAF is already considering an upgrade, as make no mistake that the SU30 MKI will be around for a long time, probably till 2025-30. So its no big deal if the MKI gets an AESA before SU35BM, but the thing is MKI will definitely incorporate an AESA and a more powerful powerplant(AL41S of SU35) and more advanced avionics and weapons system in the near future, whether before or after SU35 BM does so is another issue. Check out the SU-30 MKI thread, where members have pointed out in detail as to what is in store for the MKI in the future.

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Flanker-Radars.html#mozTocId533477

 

[jakojako777]

Well, i didn't know about UAC, now i do and thanks for pointing that out, mate !! As for your question regarding the SU-35BM having an AESA radar, I would say that as of now no news is available as to whether or not SU-35BM will have an AESA radar. From what is known from the Russians, even future productions of SU35BM will have an improved Irbis-E radar with a more powerful search ability. I know that a new AESA has been developed for the PAKFA by the Russian institute NIIP that was showcased at MAKS '09, but i only speculated when i said that it might be incorporated into the SU35BM as long as the PAKFA does not come online. About your question that the SU30 MKI having an AESA before SU-35BM, it has no logic as what the Russians do with the SU35BM is upto them, we can wish for it(AESA) and wishes can come true with money which won't be much of a problem for the IAF !! The IAF is already considering an upgrade, as make no mistake that the SU30 MKI will be around for a long time, probably till 2025-30. So its no big deal if the MKI gets an AESA before SU35BM, but the thing is MKI will definitely incorporate an AESA and a more powerful powerplant(AL41S of SU35) and more advanced avionics and weapons system in the near future, whether before or after SU35 BM does so is another issue. Check out the SU-30 MKI thread, where members have pointed out in detail as to what is in store for the MKI in the future.

Flanker Radars in Beyond Visual Range Air Combat

OK thanks on your extensive answer!:thank_you2:

The FUNNY part is that Pogosyan is boss of Sukhoi and MIG now. So any "competition" will not work ))).......I can imagine that guys from MIG shout sometime "We are the best!" and there comes Pogosyan asking:twizt:
"Who said that?!!":twizt:"You! One month without salary!" ))

I agree with you about AESA .I was talking about PAK FGFA- AESA( not Israels or other AESA) that should be in some logic 1st incorporated in SU-35.
But even that is speculation be cause it is Irbis (for now ) on SU-35

But who knows maybe India will go for Israeli AESA......
It is really about money like you have said ,India just needs money to buy AESA!

What I do NOT agree with you is engine...
To buy (117S) SU-35's super cruise engine does NOT make sense be cause India just bought license for SU-30MKI - ( AL-31FP) it doesn't make sense economically to buy new NON licensed engine (117S)now!
But licensed engine ( AL-31FP) can be upgraded in cooperation with Russia I imagine...
Anyway India wants probably stealth also on SU-30MKI so they will have to work on that also with Russia to see how to achieve best cost effective upgrade.

I think that - composites in SU-35 can be only difference between SU-35 and SU-30MKI at the end...When all the avionics (PAK FGFA tech)from SU-35BM are transferred to SU-30MKI as upgrade I'm sure that they will find the way to upgrade engine also...

I just don't know how Russia intend to sell SU-35BM as "the best 4+gen plane" without AESA ??!

 

[jakojako777]

Thanks for the link!

SORRY I didn't read it before the comment!
I understand now, They'll use MIG-35's AESA! Great news(for Russians also )!!

I'm happy for India, you guys really take care about those planes (better than Russians about their planes!)
You invest so much money and deserve to become on of the best military aviation's of the world soon!

Jai Hindi !
:icon_salut:

 

[Vladimir79]

I can imagine that guys from MIG shout sometime "We are the best!" and there comes Pogosyan asking:twizt:
"Who said that?!!":twizt:"You! One month without salary!" ))

Who at RAC-MiG is going to shout that when Sukhoi wins all the best corporate awards? Su is the best and the government makes sure everyone knows it.

I agree with you about AESA ....But even that is speculation be cause it is Irbis (for now ) on SU-35

Su-35 will be the first production fighter to have L-band AESA. This, in conjuction with the Irbis, will allow it to have an extremely powerful active mode with a good passive LPI sensor package. While one flight of PESA equipped craft is scanning at long range in the X-band, another Su-35 hunter team can be tracking and engaging with the L-band to remain unseen. This can be done with as little as two Su-35 with one active Irbis and the other sneaking up on the pray, although they will usually have a wingman. It can also be used for increased awareness and threat detection in conjunction with Irbis. It will also make ground target detection and tracking far more efficient. Together, they can make an effective and cheap solution to pricey AESA X-band radars with improved degrees of coverage.

What I do NOT agree with you is engine...
To buy (117S) SU-35's super cruise engine does NOT make sense be cause India just bought license for SU-30MKI - ( AL-31FP) it doesn't make sense economically to buy new NON licensed engine (117S)now!
But licensed engine ( AL-31FP) can be upgraded in cooperation with Russia I imagine...

Buying 117S makes all the sense in the world if you want a plane with improved performance. These engines make all the difference when you talk about range, fuel efficiency, speed, altitude, combat load, durability, ease of maintenance. They are the next generation. India would be foolish not to include these in their mid-life upgrade.

Anyway India wants probably stealth also on SU-30MKI so they will have to work on that also with Russia to see how to achieve best cost effective upgrade.

The most cost effective would be a canopy glaze and a RAM coating. That is about all the RCS work that can be done with any ease. Since Su-30MKI relies on canards, it will never get an impressive RCS reduction like Su-35 and wouldn't be worth it to try. Su-35BM was designed from the ground up with reduction in mind.

I just don't know how Russia intend to sell SU-35BM as "the best 4+gen plane" without AESA ??!

L-Band in the first batch order, X-band in the second. Either way you still have AESA.

 

[icecoolben]

What is offered as upgrade is an l-band pesa on su-30 i, but, the iaf is prepared to wait for an x-band aesa. So the upgrade has been given date to finalise till 2012.

indians know what we want, calling us names won't get u anywhere. Su-30i, was designed ground up to be a complete air-superiority fighter with strict iaf specifications, but su-35 was brought up to serve as a true multi-role platform in line with holy cows (ie) like rafale, typhoon, super hornet. But since it was derived from an air-superiority flanker would deter its chances of making it to the league on a same footing. As far as engine upgrade is concerned, as part of pak fa engine development programs have taken off considerably and a logstically simple up-rated al-31 engine would be soon available, going for the 117s would only put more strains on budget and su-30 mki upgrade program.

 

[Vladimir79]

What is offered as upgrade is an l-band pesa on su-30 i, but, the iaf is prepared to wait for an x-band aesa. So the upgrade has been given date to finalise till 2012.

The L-band upgrade is an AESA, not a PESA, and it doesn't get rid of the main X-band radar.

indians know what we want, calling us names won't get u anywhere.

Who is calling you names?

Su-30i, was designed ground up to be a complete air-superiority fighter with strict iaf specifications,

Su-30MKI is a multi-role fighter with impressive A2G capabilities as well.

but su-35 was brought up to serve as a true multi-role platform in line with holy cows (ie) like rafale, typhoon, super hornet.

Su-35 was designed for three things:

1) Testbed for initial PAK FA technologies
2) "Big Modernisation" of Flanker series
3) 100% 4++ Russian made fighter so no more orders for foreign equipment

But since it was derived from an air-superiority flanker would deter its chances of making it to the league on a same footing.

Su-35BM is not only in league with the mentioned items, but superior in most regards.

As far as engine upgrade is concerned, as part of pak fa engine development programs have taken off considerably and a logstically simple up-rated al-31 engine would be soon available, going for the 117s would only put more strains on budget and su-30 mki upgrade program.

117S is an uprated and modernised AL-31 engine.

There won't be any others since we are moving on to new engines for PAK FA.

 

[p2prada]

The life of an engine will not go above 10 years. It will make sense for the IAF to go for 117s once the 940 Al-31FPs being manufactured by HAL is complete.

 

[jakojako777]

Who at RAC-MiG is going to shout that when Sukhoi wins all the best corporate awards? Su is the best and the government makes sure everyone knows it.


Well that was joke! Perhaps bad joke but joke all the same !
I'm not sure that you understood what we were talking about - there...
And if you take it out of the context of conversation like that it sounds worse than it is...There was nothing intelligent in that bad joke, so "analyzing" it does not make sense.
But if that makes you happy...why not.:sporty55:


For the rest of your comments - thank you!:thank_you2:

I really wanted to hear some answers ( about SU-35 specially) and I really didn't think that my guessing about many things was right....
Anyway I'm just guy who doesn't have any tech or military competence, I do this for fun.
So thanks again I like to learn from people who know the subject.:thank_you2:

 

[jakojako777]

The life of an engine will not go above 10 years. It will make sense for the IAF to go for 117s once the 940 Al-31FPs being manufactured by HAL is complete.

Comparing with other comments about possibility of (117S) upgrade (or not) I like yours the most! Be cause it does make sense economically 1st to produce those engines for which license is already paid for and only then go for upgrade:thank_you2:

Now question please-
I am really confused be cause I have seen different informations that say opposite things....
Which engine is used for creation of 117S?
Is 117S "heavily upgraded" Al-31F as they say in some articles or it is re-dimensioned Al-41F(-1S) as they say in others ?!?

 

[ppgj]

Which engine is used for creation of 117S?
Is 117S "heavily upgraded" Al-31F as they say in some articles or it is re-dimensioned Al-41F(-1S) as they say in others ?!?

may be this can help.
117S / AL-37FU

http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/interview-chepkin1.html

117s is supposed to be a stop gap till AL 41F clears the hurdles the russians are trying to solve.

 

[jakojako777]

may be this can help.
117S / AL-37FU

Interview with Victor Mikhailovich Chepkin - Vayu Sena

117s is supposed to be a stop gap till AL 41F clears the hurdles the russians are trying to solve.

So this one talking about (TASS report) for example is wrong? (I've seen others but I have 1 only for now)

Defunct Humanity: Serial production of 117S will started soon




The Russian ARMS-TASS agency has reported Oct. 9, that the contract between the Russian Air Force and UMPO plant (merged in 'United Engine-building Corporation') was signed for 96 Al-41F-1S engines purchase. They will be installed on the serial Su-35S fighters. The first party of the engines would be delivered in 2010, and the whole contract – till 2015. Al-41F-1S ('izdelie 117S') is developed by 'Saturn' with UMPO input, and it has a thrust vectoring nozzle . Two months ago the contract between the Russian Air Force and 'Sukhoi Corp.' was signed for delivering 48 Su-35S, 12 Su-27SM и 4 Su-30М2 fighters until 2015. About 15 Al-41F engines were produced early for the canceled '1.44 project' of 5th generation fighter, which was developed by MiG corp. during 90th. Al-41F-1S - is the intermediate engine solution for the Indo-Russian PAK-FA/FGFA fighter too, it is going to fly till year end with according to the RuAF plan. India could gain these technologies too if wants. As HAL Indian airspace industry corporation's chief and others admitted early, India has already got the single-crystal blade technology during Al-31F ToT agreement.

Added latter: The Al-41F-1S ('izdelie 117S') engine is a re-dimensioned version of Al-41 engine for fitting Su-30/Su-35 and FGFA/PAKFA fighters. It's as 15% lighter than the predecessor, according to the Saturn's chief engineer. The t/w ratio on wet is 10 kgf/kg. The '117S' engine - is an initial and export version with 14.5 t thrust, while '117' - is a 15 t thrust domestic version for PAKFA (and probably FGFA too) on the first stage of project. Latter the even more advanced 5th+ gen. engine with t/w = 11.5 - 12.5 kgf/kg is planned for PAKFA.

 

[jakojako777]

may be this can help.
117S / AL-37FU

Interview with Victor Mikhailovich Chepkin - Vayu Sena

117s is supposed to be a stop gap till AL 41F clears the hurdles the russians are trying to solve.

Hmm ....I don't know if you have notice that your 2nd link directs to the almost 11 years OLD text!!! Bit old information.... but:thank_you2:



Victor Mikhailovich Chepkin

Air Fleet, airfleet.ru

By Andrey Fomin

[November/December 1998]

 

[ppgj]

Hmm ....I don't know if you have notice that your 2nd link directs to the almost 11 years OLD text!!! Bit old information.... but:thank_you2:



Victor Mikhailovich Chepkin

Air Fleet, airfleet.ru

By Andrey Fomin

[November/December 1998]

i know they are old. but still clears certain doubts. btw NPO SATURN does not even talk AL41F ETC...
but some useful info below.

AIRCRAFT ENGINES OF THE 4th GENERATION
ÍÏÎ "ÑÀÒÓÐÍ"

AIRCRAFT ENGINES OF GENERATION 4++
ÍÏÎ "ÑÀÒÓÐÍ"

AIRCRAFT ENGINES OF THE 5th GENERATION
ÍÏÎ "ÑÀÒÓÐÍ"

no product details though on the product in the last link.

 

[jakojako777]

may be this can help.
117S / AL-37FU

Interview with Victor Mikhailovich Chepkin - Vayu Sena

117s is supposed to be a stop gap till AL 41F clears the hurdles the russians are trying to solve.

I can see that you have Googled for info and I could do the same but......my
problem is that these "sources" use often different names and I still don't know which is true!?

Wiki here tells us that AL-41F is "heavily-upgraded version" of AL-31F
also talks about specs of "AL-41F class"(!!??) Does that mean that AL-41F is nothing but upgrade?!?>Wow this Russians, can be complicated...
Perhaps that is the root of my confusion?


Saturn AL-41 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Uffffffffffff ...When it comes to naming planes, engines etc. Russians are masters of confusion!! I don't know about you but I'm getting tired of their so many different names of often same plane,engine etc..and similar stuff...>
Pff...... this is not fun any more.......>

 

[jakojako777]

i know they are old. but still clears certain doubts. btw NPO SATURN does not even talk AL41F ETC...
but some useful info below.

AIRCRAFT ENGINES OF THE 4th GENERATION
ÍÏÎ "ÑÀÒÓÐÍ"

AIRCRAFT ENGINES OF GENERATION 4++
ÍÏÎ "ÑÀÒÓÐÍ"

AIRCRAFT ENGINES OF THE 5th GENERATION
ÍÏÎ "ÑÀÒÓÐÍ"

no product details though on the product in the last link.

THANKS!
"The 117С engine is a deep thrust-life modernization of the AL-31FP,"

FINALLY the official answer from the 2nd link!
So 117S upgrade of AL-31FP if I understand Russian English!

Thanks:goodstuff:

 

[p2prada]

The 117S is an upgraded Al-31F. The AL-41 is a new engine.