Russia and China relations

Do you think the Russians are playing double game with India?


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Yusuf

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Russia does not play double game. It can play with the geo political scenario. They are trying to cozy up with Pakistan these days.

Delays in deliveries are because they are inefficient, may be lack of skilled workers and may be greedy as well.
 

Adux

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There is no doubt, absolutely no doubt, that Russia is playing a double game. They are arming both sides, with a definitive lean towards the Chinese. What is the J-20 other than a upgraded MiG 1.44
 

shuvo@y2k10

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from russian point of view india is also playing double game by cosying up to america.
 
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Is the rd-93 engine a double game? or the mid air refuellers IL-78 to pakistan from Ukraine a double game? India does not have new mid air refuellers even with the huge number of planes being bought. More games will also be played with PAKFA in the future.
 

Adux

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from russian point of view india is also playing double game by cosying up to america.
The day India exports weapons to USA as well as to Chechnya you can accuse the same, till then STFU
 

nrj

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So what should they do?

Reject any financial/strategic gain they come across for the love of India?
 

Adux

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You think complete tech transfer of MiG 1.44, Sovernmneyy's, Sukhoi's etc would happen without Russian Government consent. Do you know how many departments, ministries, papers etc etc have to be collated to create a new Sukhoi, J-11B is produced by the Chinese, and the Russians are selling them more stuff.
 
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Adux

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So what should they do?

Reject any financial/strategic gain they come across for the love of India?
Absolutely not, Let them play, but India should play as well. There is no need to call Russia a true friend, they arent.
 
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This is not all Russia's fault sometimes the negotiators from the Indian side are so excited about the kickbacks they forget important things like details of the deals. We will have more T-90's then Russia in the future but why do we keep buying the same downgraded T-90 version? again details!!!!!!!!
 

Godless-Kafir

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Sales men are always friendly, all you need to experience the warmth of such an relationship is to step into an car showroom and feel the hospitality of their treatment but only a retard would think that sales man is his true friend! Its your mistake to first of all have thought an vendor can be a true friend. :rolleyes:

Russia and China relations have been close since the time of USSR and China. Even then it does qualify as friendship, Russians will never see a race of black and brown people as FRIENDS! They are very racially sensitive people.
 

Adux

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Atleast Americans sell or gift Pakistani's weapons which have strings or even worse, with the Russians, bleed Indians for money, gift them at scrap value to the Chinese.
 
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This is not a race issue it is a buisness and in any buisness it comes down to money. The Chinese have their own indigenous weapons industry infrastructure provided by Russia does India??
 
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Atleast Americans sell or gift Pakistani's weapons which have strings or even worse, with the Russians, bleed Indians for money, gift them at scrap value to the Chinese.
They are more than gifting they are doing complete TOT for planes like Sukhois then pretending that it was reverseed enginered by China. Russia and China have much bigger trade than Russia and India and with India it is always heavily favored Russian exports to India, they buy very little India exports.
 

Godless-Kafir

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Some retards in the government spend far less on Indigenisation than buying stuff! Our whole approach to indigenous our def industry is half hearted and we dont spend so much. Look at the Kaveri for instance, they spend just 2,000crs when even a Private company like Rolls Royce spent over a billion to develop the trent engine which eventually bankrupted the company and the engine sales brought it back to life. We have no determination like what the US and USSR had in the cold war.
 

Adux

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Please do blame the Indian military , they are equally if not more responsible here
 
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Please do blame the Indian military , they are equally if not more responsible here
This is true but I think the services have woke up . Take the missile side as an example we are reducing missiles bought from Russia only Brahmos and Klubs(as a package on kilo subs and frigates built) are being bought and KH-55 are bought as a package with the sukhois. The whole Indian missile market has been lost by Russia to Israel,USA and France.
 

pack leader

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This is true but I think the services have woke up . Take the missile side as an example we are reducing missiles bought from Russia only Brahmos and Klubs(as a package on kilo subs and frigates built) are being bought and KH-55 are bought as a package with the sukhois. The whole Indian missile market has been lost by Russia to Israel,USA and France.
for a bloody good reason their a2a missiles are technologically outdated ,half of them are duds
and they never finish a contract on time or on budget .
 

Tshering22

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NO. Russia is not playing games. Most of Chinese rip off was planned in the 90s when USSR was dead and many scientists were jobless. China took the advantage of Commie-commie relationship and started to utilize Russia's jobless engineers and scientists. This was like a lottery for the Chinese industries as the information and technology coupled with a dedicated focus in industrial manufacturing, caused the Chinese defense industry to rise like a rocket.

Russia is a country that has to see its financial benefits as well. USSR is no more and Russia has to ensure that its weapons supplies don't run dry. In order to sustain their enormous defense industry which forms the core of their economy other than oil and gas, they have to either export en masse or their local forces should be able to afford keeping the factories running. The reason why Russian industries are in a crisis at the moment is because a lot of Russian engineers went for greener pastures compared to Soviet era when the USSR collapsed. Their research and knowledge was welcomed by USA and other western countries that massively benefited from this additional flow of research and talent. The same was with China which acquired most of Russian know how including several industrial secrets that the scientists revealed for keeping their bank balance to reasonable levels.

By the time Russia re-emerged from the ashes, it was too late. China, unhindered by any collapse, had blasted through the block of lack of technical know how due to Russian engineering and hence gained an edge in manufacturing. What Russians used as the basis of their research (initial prop planes during WW2) and later developed their peak fighters and ships, became the basic foundation of further research for Chinese, thus causing their sudden and massive rise in military development.

I would blame our fellow Indian mentality and that of the GOI that we are behind in terms of industrial production of military weapons. We are incapable of designing anything on time and fast because of the fact that we cannot run like Chinese state capitalism that is possible due to communist regime. Despite the presence of a so-called well oiled democracy that the west and UPA's masters keep praising, the GOI took ZERO INITIATIVE TO DO what is to be done to arms industries for efficiency in a democracy; PRIVATIZE THEM.

Paranoid that the privates will take it big and overshadow the government babus and lazy rumps, the GOI ensured that no one, not even the rapidly evolving TATA and others, could get a significant share of defense pie. So blame the GOI for its literally lack-lustre and anti-national weakling policies that screwed our military capabilities' image and made us a mockery in the list of world powers. And it still continues to do so.

Blaming the Russians will get you nowhere. They are still the only country that gives us access to top most military technology, which NO Western country would be willing to give anyday, no matter what money we offer them. Russians also have effectively not sold their weapons to Pakistanis directly unlike West. THAT is one big political gesture you need to see, even if it is to retain our huge client base for their industries. And for that, we must really appreciate them.

Our Russian made planes are far more advanced than what's exported to China. It is true that Russia has become slightly business-minded as compared to Soviet days, but we have to see its position as well. They are not Soviet Union anymore. Their population is shrinking by the day. Their supply chains are drying up and their resources that lie below the massive Siberian lands, need to be properly utilized. With corruption that would make India look like Finland (the least corrupt country on earth by crime and corruption index), Russia needs to get out of a system rot that is taking place in its structure and society.

IT has come a long way, but a lot more needs to be done. To retain its talent and to keep its industries chugging, they need cash in terms of weapons research and designing. Chinese who worked hard for their economy (which is 3 times ours) have a LOT OF CASH compared to our economy which we blew it due to corrupt, spineless government. So.... what do you expect them to do? Cry and wait for our turtle pace dodos to catch upto China to buy their weapons or researches?

We claim so much TOT from others and yet NOTHING IS DONE to use it. DRDO and ADA announce massive projects to gain much publicity. AURA, AMCA, RUSTOM, ASTRA,.... none of them have come out in their real form except a de-scaled version of Rustom that made a few public appearances. Chinese on the other hand effectively used whatever they got on their hands and now have become major arms exporters (even if it is to terrorist states).

IF US WAS IN RUSSIA'S PLACE, WE'D HAVE BEEN IN PAKISTAN'S PLACE TODAY.
 

asianobserve

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There is no doubt, absolutely no doubt, that Russia is playing a double game. They are arming both sides, with a definitive lean towards the Chinese. What is the J-20 other than a upgraded MiG 1.44
No need for a rocket scientist to figure this out. The Chinese J-20 is a souped up Mig1.44, albeit with a souped up exterior to give it a semblance of must have stealth.
 

asianobserve

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The Chinese only made some subtle changes otherwise is the same machine:
 

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