Riots in East Turkestan: Future of Uighurs

[badguy2000]

Badguy, cant you leave out India? I mean, "JUST ANOTHER INDIA" ???? India is just not another country mate, Its the only economy other than China to have a good growth! You call that just another country?

well, I raise the example of India, just because the fate of "one kid policy" in two countries is a good comparation

 

[johnee]

the guy who win the most vote can not be always right.

Espeically when one county is transforming rapidly, usually only the guys that dare defy the vote of majority and break the mossy traditions with iron hands can lead the coutry to a bright future.
In stead , those babus that are addicted to vote game just lead the country to nowhere.

For example.


CCP often take some iron and harsh measues for the countries long-term interest,such a "one kid policy" "lay off policy"...... thouse policy is nesseory and good to the country future,but such policy often harm the short-term interest of many people . So,If CCP were elected by most votes, CCP may lost power due to such harsh policy like "one kid policy".
guy, oridinary people, espeically those uneducated people,in fact are very kiddish and short-sighted........only wise men can lead rapid-transforming countries to bright future.

Had Bismarch were subject to the majority's votes, German would have not been united be a world power.
Had Deng Xiaopin were to subject to the majority's votes, China would be just another N.Korea.

however,If Bismarch and Deng had lived in India ,they would have just been babus who struggled for votes.:blum3:

If China had been "democracy" in 1970s-1990s, just the oppsition of "one kid policy" could make CCP lose the power,let alone other harsh policy.
However,Without "one kid policy" and other harsh policies, China would be just another India today.

In short, when a country like China rises, it is perfectly possible that the majority of people may still be frustrated and in rebellious mood. Its perfectly possible that their interests will be sacrificed by CCP for what they see as a long term benefit(they may be right or wrong, thats different issue).

Since you are so fetished with comparing China with India: In India, when India developes, it tries to take everyone with them. All the voices are heard and most are persuaded and convinced. Everyone has their rights, and state has to respect them. So, when India rises Indians also raise unlike the situation in China. So, to get back to your(or was it someother chinese poster's) original point that the poor in India are not cared for: Poor people(infact, everyone) is cared for in India. In China, the CCP takes 'long-term' decisions and if the majority are against it, they simply crush them down. In short, China is like a golden prison and India is like a poor home. I would rather live in my own home(where I can get my space) however poor the house maybe instead of living in a golden prison.

 

[IBRIS]

see? you mentality exactly show why India can not catch up with china.

one hand ,you hate those meddleheaded bubas and the messy politics, on the other hand,you are not ready to pay necessary sacrifce for you next generation.

or in another way, you are sticking to your short-term benefit at the expense of the future of the country and the benefit of you kids,when your "freedom" have become the obstacle of the development of the coutry.

the longer you sticks to your short-term benefit, the higher cost your kids and your country will have to pay.

Very True, Johnee. But badguy i disagree with most of your view, not all the time though.
I agree with most of ur comments but few. I was impressed to see the modernity of Shanghai and Beijing to TV but if you continue down to central and west of china, the real china emerges, the typical china we all know about: the poor, the slums, sanitation, and so on. The distance Between Europe-like-china and Africa-like-china is only few miles away. The truth is, who living in poor parts of china are ordinary chinese, who living in the big cities like shanghai or beijing are mainly chinese governers and CCP leaders with there families. This is the regimes.

Not far away for example lots of towns, counties, villages across province of hepei, henan, hubei, hunan, anhui, yunan. You will not only discover the real china where majority of chinese suffers from poverty, human rights crackdown, industrial pollution, but more importantly chinese communist regime, who are so good to cover up the poverty-sticken side by using couple of major cities to fool the foreigners.

What would happen if all of a sudden chinese workers were given basic workers rights and compensation like the west. China would lose all its legitimacy in a world economy. If it couldn't produce cheap products on the labor of it's poorest people. But chinese people seem happy with what they are doing. They are providing for themselves and their family and I applaud that. Most chinese seem to be good people, just sucks they have such a crappy government. CCP have people living in nice apartment in city while the rural villagers lliving in shelters surrounded by contaminated river and garbage.

 

[yuebaili]

I would like to know what the Chinese forumites think of Guomindang. Of course we can not know. But I do not think Great Leap Forward or Cultural Revolution would have happened if Guomindang had won the civil war. And I cannot believe Guomindang would have comitted crimes like the Tiananmen massacre. At least it did not happen in Taiwan.
Guomindang also has better relations with Tibetans, Uighurs and other minorities.

So will you admit China would have been better off with Guomindang?

 

[asheng312]

I would like to know what the Chinese forumites think of Guomindang. Of course we can not know. But I do not think Great Leap Forward or Cultural Revolution would have happened if Guomindang had won the civil war. And I cannot believe Guomindang would have comitted crimes like the Tiananmen massacre. At least it did not happen in Taiwan.
Guomindang also has better relations with Tibetans, Uighurs and other minorities.

So will you admit China would have been better off with Guomindang?

Yes,I myself would believe that China would be a much better and richer and stronger country if it were lead by Guomindang. But history were not to be assumed. Guomindang were corrupt when CCP stick to benefits of farmers. Unless there were no communists in this world at all, Guomindang would have to put most of their enegy on CCP. and let alone the economist .Sometimes I may feel that CCP harmed farmers much. Before liberation, farmers were sodiers. Thousands of them killed in the war. After, they were starved to death in the 1960. and now, they were still in the bottom of the society,struggling for survive. anything they produce were stricked at low price, wheat and rice were forbiden from export. they were taxed heavy for 50 years. if they were sick, no healthware ,all by their own. Yes, the CCP emphasis on long-term benefit, but farmers were too much sacraficed .

 

[no smoking]

I would like to know what the Chinese forumites think of Guomindang. Of course we can not know. But I do not think Great Leap Forward or Cultural Revolution would have happened if Guomindang had won the civil war. And I cannot believe Guomindang would have comitted crimes like the Tiananmen massacre. At least it did not happen in Taiwan.
Guomindang also has better relations with Tibetans, Uighurs and other minorities.

So will you admit China would have been better off with Guomindang?

Well, I never lived one day under KMT's ruling. But based on what my parents told me, I did gave some thought to this.

Basically, before 1949, KMT was not a qualified ruling party. It had some talent among its senior officers, but most of its middle and junior officers were just thugs, who were only interested in money. It took almost 30 years that corruption became popular in CCP, while it was only 7 years in the case of KMT.

Besides, KMT's organisation was too loose. There was no check on any new member. That was why some of its members were actually CCP's spy.

 

[badguy2000]

Well, I never lived one day under KMT's ruling. But based on what my parents told me, I did gave some thought to this.

Basically, before 1949, KMT was not a qualified ruling party. It had some talent among its senior officers, but most of its middle and junior officers were just thugs, who were only interested in money. It took almost 30 years that corruption became popular in CCP, while it was only 7 years in the case of KMT.

Besides, KMT's organisation was too loose. There was no check on any new member. That was why some of its members were actually CCP's spy.

KMT was unlucky to encounter the invasion of Japanese.

In fact, KMT did its job well before sino-Japanese war ,but the invasion of Japanese ruined KMT.

 

[nimo_cn]

Nobody would have cared for poor people, if poor people did not have the power of vote. It is their vote that makes the Govts that rule India, it is their vote that brings the Govts in Delhi crashing down. And poor people vote only to those who do something to them. All the talk of India rising(or shining) does not impress them, they drive a hard bargain. Every 5yrs, the Govts are held accountable by every Indian above 18yrs.

Can you boast the same about the present system in China?

There are several schemes solely for the welfare of poor people in India. For instance in Andhra Pradesh we have: NREGA, free electricity, 2Rs for Kg Rice,free medical ambulance.....etc. Why are such populist schemes that are a drain on state exchequer run? Because to garner votes. That is politicians in India have to care for the poor to get back their power after 5yrs.

Infact, it is the middle class that gets a hard bargain in India. They have to come up on their own.

My firend, i havent been to India, so i dont know how is the life of poor people in India, and honestly speaking, i dont care. But i do hope poor people in India can have a good life as you said.

What i am saying here is that although we are in a different system from india, i can also enjoy a good life, and we are enjoying this. CCP cares about the poor peopel in China, CCP has to care about the life of the poor. CCP knows that better than anyone, it knows if the poor people who consist of the majority of the population are unhappy, then it will be abandoned by the poor, just like what happened 60 years ago, Chinese abandoned kuomingdang.

The rule is simple, Chinese will support the party that meets their demands, and CCP does, so CCP will survive. We dont vote, but we have our own way to express our demand.

 

[tarunraju]

nimo_cn is right, the Chinese 'common-man' enjoys a good standard of life despite his political restrictions. The Soviet-style communist era is long gone, and we better drop the stereotypes we attach to Communist states. These stereotypes are largely a propaganda from the west. At the end of the day, analysts will agree that Chinese commoners are better off than commoners from several other developing countries, including India.

 

[nimo_cn]

CCP even care more than anyone because it was those in rural put them in power in 1949. You know, our reform started from rural area and the peasants are the first to enjoy the improvement.

QUOTE]

大跃进，文化大革命。。。。真了不起的改良！没有共产党就没有。。。。国民党在台湾没有做得到。
你认为中国农民的情况比台湾农民的情况好多？

Great Leap Forward, Cultural Revolution.......really amazing improvements! Without the CCP.....Guomindang in Taiwan could not do that.
Do you think peasants in China live much better than peasants in Taiwan?

I dont know who you are, but i have to admit you do know something about China. Great Leap Forward, Cultural Revolution are mistakes, and are silly ones, even CCP itself admit that now. But CCP is not god, every party makes mistakes, adopts wrong policies, we dont deny the flaw of CCP, we have said CCP is not perfect. But the point is CCP is learning from the mistakes, it is improving itself, that is why China is developing so fast now.

As for kuomingdang, i have said it lost the mainland because it didnt satisfy the Chinese in mainland. But it adjusted its policy after it retreated to taiwan, and the Chinese in taiwan now are enjoying a better life than we. I am not saying peasants in mainlan are living much better than the peasants in Taiwan, in fact, we are aware we are left behind. All i am saying is that we are improving.

 

[tarunraju]

I dont know who you are, but i have to admit you do know something about China. Great Leap Forward, Cultural Revolution are mistakes, and are silly ones, even CCP itself admit that now. But CCP is not god, every party makes mistakes, adopts wrong policies, we dont deny the flaw of CCP, we have said CCP is not perfect. But the point is CCP is learning from the mistakes, it is improving itself, that is why China is developing so fast now.

As for kuomingdang, i have said it lost the mainland because it didnt satisfy the Chinese in mainland. But it adjusted its policy after it retreated to taiwan, and the Chinese in taiwan now are enjoying a better life than we. I am not saying peasants in mainlan are living much better than the peasants in Taiwan, in fact, we are aware we are left behind. All i am saying is that we are improving.

So, going by that logic, wouldn't at least a bipartisan democracy have befitted China instead of a system that guarantees power to only one? You have two quick learners here, one faster than the other. Faster one wins. People benefit from competition.

But then you can always argue that ROC is smaller and easier to administer. Indian democracy is chaotic. The political entities are far from perfect, and learn from their mistakes slower than retarded children, but whatever little competition comes out of it benefits India a great deal.

Good point, we really dont want to be another India!

You can be another United States if you want to.

 

[no smoking]

So, going by that logic, wouldn't at least a bipartisan democracy have befitted China instead of a system that guarantees power to only one? You have two quick learners here, one faster than the other. Faster one wins. People benefit from competition.

But then you can always argue that ROC is smaller and easier to administer. Indian democracy is chaotic. The political entities are far from perfect, and learn from their mistakes slower than retarded children, but whatever little competition comes out of it benefits India a great deal.

Yes, in perfect world, it is good to have two wonderful competitor. But it is another case in realty.

problem 1: CCP doesn't want to share power with anybody. What we do? Terminate the economic development and start a civil war? Obviously, the majority will not support it.

problem 2: After 60 years, KMT have few direct contact with ordinary chinese. For the 300 milion accessing internet, we know something about KMT. But to the majority in rural area, KMT is remote group. All the memories about it are still from 6o years ago: a lousy, violent party. How can KMT win any election in 20 years in mainland.

problem 3: Apart from political reason, taiwanese worry they will have to provide economic aid after unification. This will reduce their benefit from the investments in mainland. On the other hand, some of mailanders think that taiwan have this obligation because KMT brought whole china's national treasury to that tiny island when they flee.

 

[tarunraju]

Then how about you convert factions within CCP into democratic entities? That way whoever wins, CCP still rules, and competition within the factions accelerates raise in standards of governance.

 

[no smoking]

Then how about you convert factions within CCP into democratic entities? That way whoever wins, CCP still rules, and competition within the factions accelerates raise in standards of governance.

That is exactly what is going on.

The members of CCP are not unifed as they are pretending to be.

There are various groups within CCP. Some of them are formed on territory, from where the officer started his political career; some are identified by the leaders, who is the mentor of your political carrer. Generally, they fight each other within CCP. They will have to win the vote of CCP member by the performance in previous position.

If you are familiar with CCP political circle, you should know Jiang and Hu are from different groups.

It is a bit like Japanse LDP, one party ruling for 50 years. But different groups hold the cabinet positions.

 

[yuebaili]

Yes, in perfect world, it is good to have two wonderful competitor. But it is another case in realty.

problem 1: CCP doesn't want to share power with anybody. What we do? Terminate the economic development and start a civil war? Obviously, the majority will not support it.

problem 2: After 60 years, KMT have few direct contact with ordinary chinese. For the 300 milion accessing internet, we know something about KMT. But to the majority in rural area, KMT is remote group. All the memories about it are still from 6o years ago: a lousy, violent party. How can KMT win any election in 20 years in mainland.

problem 3: Apart from political reason, taiwanese worry they will have to provide economic aid after unification. This will reduce their benefit from the investments in mainland. On the other hand, some of mailanders think that taiwan have this obligation because KMT brought whole china's national treasury to that tiny island when they flee.

problem 1: I have the impression you would like China to become a democracy.Right?
But why not just support the Chinese dissidents and other democrats inside and outside CCP? Why not let the CCP leaders understand that you want democracy? I cannot see that this would necessarily cause a civil war or hamper the economic development.
I am convinced lots of Chinese would like China to become democratic. It would be wonderful if they could swallow their nationalistic pride and admit that the West is righ when criticizing the lack of human rights in China. We are not enemies of China just because we dislike dictatorship. This seems to be difficult for many Chinese to understand.

problem 2: It is true that mainland Chinese have been subjected to brainwash for generations and even today most of them do not get objectiv information. But if China becomes democratic this will change and KMT will not be the only party to challenge CCP.

problem 3: First it must be decided whether the Taiwanese want to be united with China and under which forms. If China becomes democratic this can be done by peaceful negotiations, which will make it possible for both countries (take it easy! I know you will say Taiwan is not a country. Call it what you wish!) to reduce military expenses.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

China vows crackdown on 'ethnic separatists'

China vows crackdown on 'ethnic separatists'

The statement came as China struggles to contain simmering ethnic unrest in Xinjiang, a vast region located in the far northwest that borders Central Asia. Photo courtesy AFP.
by Staff Writers
Beijing (AFP) Sept 18, 2009
China's ruling Communist Party pledged on Friday to crack down on "ethnic separatists", two months after deadly ethnic unrest rocked the restive mainly Muslim region of Xinjiang.

The pledge came at the end of a key annual meeting of the party's powerful central committee which also vowed to battle endemic corruption and keep the economy growing, Xinhua news agency reported, citing an official communique.

The party said it must "effectively guard against and resolutely strike down ethnic separatist activities and consolidate and develop socialist ethnic relations of equality, unity, and mutual harmony," the statement said.

The statement came as China struggles to contain simmering ethnic unrest in Xinjiang, a vast region located in the far northwest that borders Central Asia.

The communique, however, made no immediate mention of the widely expected elevation of Vice President Xi Jinping to the nation's top military commission -- a move that would be seen as solidifying his status as front-runner to succeed President Hu Jintao.

Some political observers expected the committee to appoint Xi to the commission, which is headed by Hu, during this week's meeting, which convened on Tuesday.

Chinese Communist Party proceedings are cloaked in a veil of secrecy, and it was not immediately clear whether the move was already taken but not announced right away.

The brief statement on separatism was the latest in a series by authorities keen to crush any threats to their rule in regions inhabited by China's many different ethnic groups.

Ethnic violence erupted in July in the Xinjiang capital Urumqi, pitting mainly Muslim Uighurs against members of China's dominant Han group. Nearly 200 people were killed, most of them Han, according to the official toll.

China regularly blames "separatists" for stoking episodes of ethnic unrest, as it did in Urumqi, but has provided no evidence of any organised separatism.

The city has again been tense for the past month following a spate of hundreds of syringe attacks, which Han Chinese have blamed on Uighurs.

Seven people have so far been convicted in connection with the attacks and handed jail terms of up to 15 years. All of those convicted have names indicating they belong to the Uighur minority.

The party also issued its now-routine vow to combat a tide of official corruption, which top leaders such as Hu have previously warned posed a threat to the ruling party's legitimacy.

The statement said "resolutely opposing corruption is a political mission of grave importance that the party must seize from start to finish."

China's leadership has waged one campaign after another to clean up corruption over the years, but high-level scandals involving top party leaders have persisted.

The communique also said the party would continue with policies aimed at stimulating the economy in the face of the world slowdown, warning that China continued to face significant risks.

 

[no smoking]

problem 1: I have the impression you would like China to become a democracy.Right?
But why not just support the Chinese dissidents and other democrats inside and outside CCP? Why not let the CCP leaders understand that you want democracy? I cannot see that this would necessarily cause a civil war or hamper the economic development.
I am convinced lots of Chinese would like China to become democratic. It would be wonderful if they could swallow their nationalistic pride and admit that the West is righ when criticizing the lack of human rights in China. We are not enemies of China just because we dislike dictatorship. This seems to be difficult for many Chinese to understand.

problem 2: It is true that mainland Chinese have been subjected to brainwash for generations and even today most of them do not get objectiv information. But if China becomes democratic this will change and KMT will not be the only party to challenge CCP.

problem 3: First it must be decided whether the Taiwanese want to be united with China and under which forms. If China becomes democratic this can be done by peaceful negotiations, which will make it possible for both countries (take it easy! I know you will say Taiwan is not a country. Call it what you wish!) to reduce military expenses.

Yes, I want china to be democratic as much as most of chinese. But not now. That is also the majority's understanding.

Yes, of course the west is right when criticizing the human right violation. But what is intension behind their criticze? The problem is west already lost their credit among the chinese since the britan use war to force opium trade. Most of us believe the west, especially gov, does not give shit about chineses' human right status, unless this concern can bring them economic or political benefit. Probably to you or other normal west public, you have good intention, but your gov already consumed your credit long time ago.

Regarding the possibility of civil war, well, that is the difference between us. You anticipate chinese's behave based on western mental process, my judgement is based on chinese's. Who do you think to be more accurate? If you still have doubt, please check the chinese history to find out how many wars incurred by political dispute.

By the way, please cut the brainwash crap when you are talking to chinese. Firstly, most of chinese you are talking to in this kind of forum are living in overseas, we have access to same source of information as you, probably even more. Second, you are denying opposite's equality in discussion by saying this. That will lead the talk to nowhere. Nobody will be calm when you claim he is some kind of igorant "child".

 

[nimo_cn]

problem 1: I have the impression you would like China to become a democracy.Right?
But why not just support the Chinese dissidents and other democrats inside and outside CCP? Why not let the CCP leaders understand that you want democracy? I cannot see that this would necessarily cause a civil war or hamper the economic development.
I am convinced lots of Chinese would like China to become democratic. It would be wonderful if they could swallow their nationalistic pride and admit that the West is righ when criticizing the lack of human rights in China. We are not enemies of China just because we dislike dictatorship. This seems to be difficult for many Chinese to understand.

problem 2: It is true that mainland Chinese have been subjected to brainwash for generations and even today most of them do not get objectiv information. But if China becomes democratic this will change and KMT will not be the only party to challenge CCP.

problem 3: First it must be decided whether the Taiwanese want to be united with China and under which forms. If China becomes democratic this can be done by peaceful negotiations, which will make it possible for both countries (take it easy! I know you will say Taiwan is not a country. Call it what you wish!) to reduce military expenses.

Whether China is democratic or not, the western still want to get us.

What the western really care about is not the democracy and human right in China, it is what the they can get from us that they really cares about. The CCP has a lot of problems, and we are fully aware of that, but we still support it, because at least it is our party, and it cares about us. The western criticise CCP over subjects such as democracy and human right, because they want China to submit to them. It will be a joke to say the western cares about Chinese and what they are doing to China is for the good of Chinese. Just like it is a joke for USA to claim they invaded Irapi only to free the people of Iraqi.

Taiwan is an integral part of China. Whatever party is ruling China, we will unify it.

 

[yuebaili]

By the way, please cut the brainwash crap when you are talking to chinese. Firstly, most of chinese you are talking to in this kind of forum are living in overseas, we have access to same source of information as you, probably even more. Second, you are denying opposite's equality in discussion by saying this. That will lead the talk to nowhere. Nobody will be calm when you claim he is some kind of igorant "child".

Did I say you are brainwashed? If so i apologise. Because of course I cannot know. It seems obvious to me that you are affected by Chinese mainland way of thinking, which is very narrowminded in my opinion - especially lots of prejudices against "the white man". But I definitely do not deny your equality in discussion. I understand that you are living in the West and have become rather used of being treated like a free person with your personal opinions. But will you deny - as I wrote - that mainland Chinese have been subjected to brainwash for generations and even today most of them do not get objectiv information?

 

[yuebaili]

Whether China is democratic or not, the western still want to get us.

What the western really care about is not the democracy and human right in China, it is what the they can get from us that they really cares about. The CCP has a lot of problems, and we are fully aware of that, but we still support it, because at least it is our party, and it cares about us. The western criticise CCP over subjects such as democracy and human right, because they want China to submit to them. It will be a joke to say the western cares about Chinese and what they are doing to China is for the good of Chinese. Just like it is a joke for USA to claim they invaded Irapi only to free the people of Iraqi.

Taiwan is an integral part of China. Whatever party is ruling China, we will unify it.

A typical example of narrowminded mainland Chinese thinking!!!!!

The West consists of many different countries with different policies and ambitions. All these different countries are populated with individuals with different opinions. Unlike Mainland Chinese we are not slaves of our governments. Our governments depend on our votes. The same with the Taiwanese government.

So whether the Taiwanese want it or not they must accept to become Chinese slaves?