Religious Demographics in India

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Known_Unknown

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@Known Unknown



Can you tell me one instance when my assertion has been based on low standard of evidence? You asked me about nagarhara, i gave you primary sources.
Where did I ask you about Nagarhara? Would you like to go back and read my post again? I simply asked you for a primary source for your assertion that KoBras migrated to the Konkan from the northwestern frontier. You have thus far provided none. Among the many theories I've read (most backed up by DNA/genetic evidence), none has been so specific as to suggest the exact area of their origin. You're apparently the only one who knows, and you have no basis for your claims.

And can you also tell me how i set bars impossibly high?

Do not you find it intriguing that Rajputs were allies of Shahjehan and aurangzeb( in our period which is relevant) got their 52 princes imprisioned? Is asking for this a heinous crime?

If people are failing to prove it, it is not my fault.
What do you mean by "primary source"? Do you want the name of the person who saw those princes being imprisoned? Do you want this witness to write a book? If not, and if you will accept contemporary sources which narrated the story, then those sources have already been provided. Now if you are asking how do we know those sources were right, well, there's obviously no way to know anything for sure until you travel back in time and witness the incident yourself.

If the level of certitude required is such, then it will be impossible to prove anything at all.
 

MAYURA

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Where did I ask you about Nagarhara? Would you like to go back and read my post again? I simply asked you for a primary source for your assertion that KoBras migrated to the Konkan from the northwestern frontier. You have thus far provided none. Among the many theories I've read (most backed up by DNA/genetic evidence), none has been so specific as to suggest the exact area of their origin. You're apparently the only one who knows, and you have no basis for your claims.
You are simply not getting my point. Of all hypotheses mine is most suitable as a bit of thinking can tell you. There can be or can not be primary sources for migrations and these are based on situations. As I have said that i am tired of teaching simple things in history to guys writing good english.



What do you mean by "primary source"? Do you want the name of the person who saw those princes being imprisoned? Do you want this witness to write a book? If not, and if you will accept contemporary sources which narrated the story, then those sources have already been provided. Now if you are asking how do we know those sources were right, well, there's obviously no way to know anything for sure until you travel back in time and witness the incident yourself.

If the level of certitude required is such, then it will be impossible to prove anything at all.

I only require any mughal source talking about imprisioning 52 " princes" of rajputs and then getting freed by sixth guru. This is the simplest one can demand as mughal era has information even on how many rupees were derived from a particular district.

If you are calling this much as impossible, i do not know how to proceed.
 

SHURIDH

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seems like people talking on ethnic group of india and origion of people and brahminism.
but the thread is about demography
 

civfanatic

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Is this now the random religion/history discussion thread?
 

MAYURA

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Is this now the random religion/history discussion thread?
I was waiting for you as no matter how much you hate me and my ideas, I appreciate that you provide facts in favour of your theories which most of time are supported by historical sources.

So can you help our matter getting solved by your knowledge of history?
 

SHURIDH

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I was waiting for you as no matter how much you hate me and my ideas, I appreciate that you provide facts in favour of your theories which most of time are supported by historical sources.

So can you help our matter getting solved by your knowledge of history?
Its not a history thread.
the subject of this thread is clear religious demography information.
stay in topic.
 

MAYURA

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Its not a history thread.
the subject of this thread is clear religious demography information.
stay in topic.
You need to give this advice to those who drifted as i did not bring any mention of " 52 rajput princes" in this thread. You need to read and check this.
 

civfanatic

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I was waiting for you as no matter how much you hate me and my ideas, I appreciate that you provide facts in favour of your theories which most of time are supported by historical sources.

So can you help our matter getting solved by your knowledge of history?
Quite honestly, I am not interested in getting involved in this debate.
 

MAYURA

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Quite honestly, I am not interested in getting involved in this debate.
That is not surprising as this time it is not Gupta age myth that can be exploded but a myth which can afford itself to be circulated due to its use in leftist discourse.
 

Singh

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@MAYURA

Lets backtrack get to the meat of the debate.

And which you are obstinately defending

===
Your Point was

MAYURA said:
1. Sikhism is itself an islamic sect and is itself result of low exposure of punjab to brahmanic civilization in pre muslim era.
2.wherever brahmannic civilization was not entrenched,the muslims multiplied
3.and so did quasiabrahamic sects like sikhism.
Pasted from <http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/religion-culture/36337-caste-system-brahmanism-51.html#post737324>

Coming to Points 1. and 3.

Since, you admitted that you lifted Point 1. and Point 4. from the "Dictionary of Islam" written by Reverend TP Hughes of the Church, a century+ back. And you also agreed with him.

*
Mayura said:
I request our esteemed @civafanatic and @Singh to look at Dictionary of Islam edited by TP Hughes. He may be wrong but then there is no need to ridicule me because I used his book.

And yes sikhism is an islamic sect ( indianized version of islam with borrowed or stolen stories from hinduism and islam) but the only difference is that it prohibits killing animals in halal fashion and prohibits sikhs from marrying muslims.
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...ligious-demographics-india-60.html#post739190

*
Mayura said:
I share his opinion to some extent as I have referred Sikhism as quasi abrahmic sect.
Sikhs are fiercely iconoclasts which they acquired from islam and that puts them into abrahmic camp albeit not fully.
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...ligious-demographics-india-60.html#post739198

Then you further said
*
Mayura said:
Because he was a scholar of Arabic and Punjabi and found remarkable similarities between islam and sikhism.
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...ligious-demographics-india-61.html#post739223

And then you further defended a book published in 19th Century on Islam, as the gospel truth about Sikhism

*
Mayura said:
What is meaning of century ago? Have some new sikh books appeared in last 100 years of times of revered gurus.?
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...ligious-demographics-india-61.html#post739257

But later you said this

*
Mayura said:
BTW, just because some whiteman in his account mentions traditional story does not mean he is damn right, if it has no primary source than no matter how entrenched one's position is , i do not take him seriously.
*
Mayura said:
The Sikhs did some remarkable service in saving honour of their hindu sisters in wake of Abdali invasion but that is different from saving hinduism. Ranjit Singh was a hindu king so his victories must be credited to brahmanism rather than sikhism.
Pasted from <http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/religion-culture/31134-religious-demographics-india-64.html#post741930>

*
Mayura said:
He protected the forehead mark and sacred thread (of the Hindus)which marked a great event in the kali age.
This is the passage i was talking about as it is open to many interpretations.
For the sake of saints, he laid down his head without even a sigh.
This is no proof yet again as i do not see any pandit here.

For the sake of Dharma, he sacrificed himself. He laid down his head but not his creed.
Correct and this I never disputed but where is kashmiri pandit in all this?


So for the sake of argument,

Lets say all Sikh sources are lies, and invented except Bachitar Natak. And Kashmiris never came to Guru Tegh Bahadur.

It quite clearly says that Guru Tegh Bahadur gave up his life for the sake of the Pandits to wear Tilak and Janeu.
There is no mention of kashmiri pandits nor of any other story. what it really says is that Guru Tegabahadurji gave his head to protect dharma which is open to many interpretations. You are inventing the rest stuff.
Pasted from <http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/religion-culture/31134-religious-demographics-india-63.html#post741449>

==

So we conclude from this

Conclusion 1:
Books written around the 20 the Century, by Foreigners are to be deemed Scholarly irrespective and their word is to be believed to be the gospel truth.
No works written in the last Century shed any new light.
Books written by "whiteman" are not necessarily right or correct.

Then how can the work of TP Hughes be considered authoritative ? So we conclude that you reject on flimsy grounds anything which you find contrary to your pre-conceived and wild notions.

Ergo TP Hughes work is to be rejected and your conclusion about Sikhs being an Islamic Sect are false.
===

Conclusion 2: Despite being different in every way possible Sikhism is an Islamic Sect They are both iconoclast, with your showing any proof of either being iconoclast.
The only difference between Islam and Sikhism is the prohibition of Halal and marriage with Muslims in Sikhism.
The greatest Sikh king is actually a Hindu, and Sikhs helped their "Hindu" sisters and Sikh Guru gave up his life for "Dharma". The Passage which says Guru Tegh Bahadur gave up his life for the Pandits to adorn themselves with the Sacred Thread and Tilak is open to interpretation.

Why would Sikhs, an Islamic Sect save their "Hindu" sisters from Muslims ? Why would a "Sikh" Guru give up his life for "Dharma" when they being an Islamic Sect they consider Hindus to be a "Kufar" ?

Sikhs cannot be an Islamic Sect, because they saved their "Hindu" sisters from Muslims, refuse to marry muslims, eat halal, became martyrs for the cause of "kufar".

===
So both your arguments in support of your allegations have been proven wrong.

======================================================================

Coming to Point 2.

"wherever brahmannic civilization was not entrenched,the muslims multiplied"

I made two points
A. Kashmir was the bastion of Brahmins and Brahminic Civilization, and today it is Muslim dominated.
B. And in the case of Guru Tegh Bahadur Hindus themselves came to the Sikhs for their assistance to prevent their forcible conversions. Sikhs who you claim are an Islamic Sect. So Brahminic Civilization couldn't have stopped Islamic conversion.

Now,
For A. You have not provided any counter-argument for the same.
For B. You have given a boatload of arguments such as

B1
Mayura said:
Probably it is a myth but irrelevant to topic.
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/religion-culture/36337-caste-system-brahmanism-64.html#post739212

B2
Mayura said:
Nothing has been proven wrong except that due to anti brahmins who abound in this forum refuse to read books. sikh gurus could not save themselves and were ridiculously tortured and murdered by cruel and bastard mughals how can they save anyone when they themselves were not able to save themselves?

ever heard of Mayura helping bankrupt ambanis? this is funny at best.
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/religion-culture/36337-caste-system-brahmanism-66.html#post739479

B3
Mayura said:
He was saying that his gurus protected hindus. It is like saying that Mukesh Ambani was saved from bankruptcy by a roadside beggar. When the gurus were themselves helpless and did no fighting themselves and brutally killed by mughals, how can they protect anyone? I asked a very logical question which must be answered by anyone dare calling other idiots but well what can I do. In a topic like this they start bashing brahmins because of inferiority complex but once we show slightest stir they start threatening us.
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...ligious-demographics-india-61.html#post739743


B4
Mayura said:
If this question is a matter of faith then do not allow faith to come when any historical topic is discussed . It was you who claimed rather ridiculously that sikh Gurus saved kashmiri brahmins and when I told the reality( which everyone knows how mughals brutally did their act) , you became sad.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...ligious-demographics-india-62.html#post739853

B5
Mayura said:
Now what can I say to this? It is your website so spread another myth( myth is not how the gurus gave their lives but that kashmiri brahmins conversion meant whole india converting and this is worst i have read anywhere as there were brahmin converts in other parts as well but noone changed his religion) rather conveniently.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...ligious-demographics-india-62.html#post739857

B6
Mayura said:
I had wished not to continue but you insist on spreading the myth on a basis that brahmins think so. One Kashmiri pandit told me that azan was called in sanskrit so I should believe that too. Which contemporary book tells us that aurangzeb the butcher forced kashmiri pandits with an option to convert or die and then they contacted Guru Tegabahadur to save their skin? No more abuses and insults simply need a source not some tradition and we will get our matter resolved.
BTW, i am not denying Tegabahadur's firm resolve in face of that turk bastard and his popularity but simply the source and a contemporary one not some khuswant singh type or some random akali website.
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...ligious-demographics-india-62.html#post739868

B7
Mayura said:
And who saved them in UP? please shed this nonsense which is typical of many extremists. we were there before you and we endured in other areas where your warriors had not reached.
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...7-caste-system-brahmanism-65.html#post7392554

B8
Mayura said:
So a ridiculous failure in producing a contemporary account and abuse me incessantly as it would not affect me.
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...ligious-demographics-india-63.html#post740123

B9
Mayura said:
Look, I am a man of integrity and no one can dare call me dishonest and if my theories are wrong, it is because i may be believing that but i do not trick others. I never asked about brahmin or buddhist sources , i asked about a contemporary be it brahmin, shinto, buddhist, sikh or mughal source of that time mentioning the story so stop accusing me of bias. Produce any source of 17th century which talks about this and i will accept that.
It was you who ridiculously claimed that thing and once i requested( as humbly as possible for me) , you apparently failed and let me tell you ask @civafanatic or any historian anywhere to give me a single contemporary account from either side that is mughal or sikh which proves your claim.

I can say with utmost confidence that not even 6 billion people can produce a thing which does not exist.
Pasted from <http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/religion-culture/31134-religious-demographics-india-63.html#post740649>

B10
Mayura said:
There was no heat directed at him , and since you are also of kashmir so please know that the stuff about Guru Tegbahadur getting killed for saving Kashmiri brahmins is not supported by any contemporary account be it mughal or sikh leave alone brahmin.

Is it crime to ask for a contemporary account?
Pasted from <http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/religion-culture/31134-religious-demographics-india-63.html#post740649>

When I gave you a list of Contemporary Accounts :

Singh said:
These are some of the sources from the said time

Parchian Sewadas written in 1708
Sri Gur Sobha written in 1711
Gurbilas Patshahi written in 1751
Bansawalinamah written in 1767
Bachittar Natak
Sri Gur Pratap Suraj Granth
Prachin Panth Parkash in 1841
The Sikh Religion Volumes by MA Macauliffe
==
I can contact more scholars, but for that you will need access to online journals. Do you have access to online academic journals and/or an online library ?
Pasted from <http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/religion-culture/31134-religious-demographics-india-63.html#post740649>

This was your reply.

B11
Mayura said:
So far as I know you have done a good job now but it is only Bachittar Natak that deals with account at length and I really need to look into that.

I will try to find if that thing exists in bachittar natak.



No offense but last book is utter crap as it was written by one who sowed the seeds of that evil separatist movement and promoted K Singh of Nabha who was a lackey of british so do not blame me for ignoring last book.


I do not have access to online library but do not worry, i take my time and then I will tell you about this.
Pasted from <http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/religion-culture/31134-religious-demographics-india-63.html#post740649>

B12
Mayura said:
@Singh

From what i have found in last two days, there is no mention of this kashmiri pandit story in any source before 1750 so I do not think it is going anywhere.

I never doubted the martyrdom or all details but the kashimiri stuff is not mentioned in bachittar( vichitra as we say in hindi) natak which is most reliable written by Guru Gobind Singhji so case closed. Let us stop here and accept that it was later story spread by some people otherwise, it would have been mentioned at length.

There is one passage which is open to many interpretation and far from being satisfactory.
Pasted from <http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/religion-culture/31134-religious-demographics-india-63.html#post740649>

B13
Mayura said:
He protected the forehead mark and sacred thread (of the Hindus)which marked a great event in the kali age. This is the passage i was talking about as it is open to many interpretations.
For the sake of saints, he laid down his head without even a sigh. This is no proof yet again as i do not see any pandit here.


For the sake of Dharma, he sacrificed himself. He laid down his head but not his creed.
Correct and this I never disputed but where is kashmiri pandit in all this?
There is no mention of kashmiri pandits nor of any other story. what it really says is that Guru Tegabahadurji gave his head to protect dharma which is open to many interpretations. You are inventing the rest stuff.

1. Nothing has been contradicted as Guru Gobind Singh does tell us that his father had to give up his head which proves my point. Aurangzeb was not normal hindi filmi villain, he was a curse on humanity and so his becoming human is ridiculous.

2. You are too ignorant to understand my second point which was that communities exposed to brahminic civilization were less likely to convert than other communities like east bengalis or Jats and Khokhars. I have much sophisticated theories than you may digest . I do not believe in brahmins were bulwark thing as brahmins were not fighters in muslim era.

Do not bring him between us and there is no such thing as Gobind singhji never mentions story so since he is true, i am also true.

I have called sikhism an islamic sect based on writings of TP Hughes, quasiabrahmic sect by use of akali establishments of abrahmic concepts but i do not remember warrior cult thing.

I have laughed at claims like freeing 52 rajput princes, saving hinduism in india etc. as they deserve much more than laughing and it was kind of me to just laugh at them.

I have rubbished any non contemporary sources be they hindu, sikh or buddhist so I do not believe in pandyas living at time of Srirama.


Last charge is lie and i am considering to give a defamatory notice to you if such thing is allowed here

Pasted from <http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/religion-culture/31134-religious-demographics-india-63.html#post740649>


B14
Mayura said:
This is my position on Bichittar Natak testimony

Guru Gobind Singh Ji has used the word "Prabh" or "Prabhu" 40 times in the Bachitar Natak
portion of Dasam Granth. Eleven times it has been written as "Prabhu", which clearly means
God. The word "Prabh" has been used 29 times by Guru Gobind Singh to mean God,
including the line, "Tilak Janju Rakha Prabh ta ka", (ch. V.13) Giani Bishan Singh of Khalsa
College, Amritsar (1957) has translated the entire Dasam Granth. He has translated the
line, "Tilak Janju Rakha Prabh Ta Ka" as "The Almighty
God protected the Tilak and Janju
of the Hindus." Translating the next line "Dharam het saka jin kiya," Giani Bishan Singh
writes its meaning as, "Guru did this saka (incident) for the sake of Dharma." He does not
say the Guru did this saka for 'Hindu Dharma'.

So now i am waiting for you.
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...ligious-demographics-india-63.html#post741494

B15
Mayura said:
When did I disregard Bichittar Natak written by Guru Gobind Singh?
Anyway, I am yet to see any detailed account of persecution of kashmiri pandits being mentioned in any of the sikh sources of that time.
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...ligious-demographics-india-64.html#post741925

B16
Mayura said:
Giani Bishan Singh of khalsa college in Amritsar translated dasam granth and as per him suitable line is " almighty god protected the tilak and janeu of hindus in kali age".

Now, you need to explain to me how a passage which is open to such differences of radical nature in its interpretation can be and should be read as you are insisting.

That is why I said that even pro sikh Khuswant Singh has failed to give evidence of kashmiri pandits being saved in his monumental history of sikhs which goes into many volumes.


You are ignoring entire context, fact that no mughal sources mention any directed attempt at conversion of kashmiri pandits and the last significant thing that your passage has been questioned by many sikhs also many who have achieved far more than you and me.
Pasted from <http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/religion-culture/31134-religious-demographics-india-64.html>


B17
Mayura said:
Did you reply my question which was pertinent to the context?
My theory is supported by scholars unlike your sword arm theory popular in public.

It was the other way round as hindu marathas saved sikhs from mughal tyranny . The Sikhs did some remarkable service in saving honour of their hindu sisters in wake of Abdali invasion but that is different from saving hinduism.

Ranjit Singh was a hindu king so his victories must be credited to brahmanism rather than sikhism.

Pasted from <http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/religion-culture/31134-religious-demographics-india-64.html>

B18
Mayura said:
BTW, just because some whiteman in his account mentions traditional story does not mean he is damn right, if it has no primary source than no matter how entrenched one's position is , i do not take him seriously.
===

Lets hit it the other way,

To counter Point 2

"wherever brahmannic civilization was not entrenched,the muslims multiplied"

==

To reiterate Point A

1. Kashmir was an important centre of Brahminic Civilization.

References:
Works by Abhinavagupta, Ksemaraja, Jayrath, and Utplaladeva

2. Kashmir today is a muslim dominated state.

References: Govt Statistics

So you have been proven wrong.

====

References Regarding Point B

1. Guru Tegh Bahadur gave up his life to save Hindus from Islam

References:
Selected Contemporary Sources (all within 4 decades of his martyrdom)

1. Bachitar Natak by Guru Gobind Singh in 17th Century
"He protected the janeu and tilak of the Hindus, It was a great event in the modern ages. For the sake of humankind, he sacrificed himself. He laid down his head but not his creed

2. Das Gur Katha by Kavi Kankan in 1690/99
"
Satiguru gave his head but he did not betray his faith.
Protecting the janeu and tika, sing Prabhu's praise.
While cries of distress filled the world, there were cries of victory in
heaven. "

3. Sri Gur Katha by Bhai Jiwan Singh in 1699 (

Bhai Jivan Singh was the one who rescued the severed head of Guru Tegh Bahadur and brought it to Anandpur Sahib.

4. Prachin Sewa Das written in 1708 by an Udasi Ascetic

". Theministers expressed their happiness to the emperor over the fact that the pir of the Hindus,
Guru Tegh Bahadur, had fallen into their hands, and said, "If you can make him accept our religion, then thousands of Hindus will automatically convert to Islam."

5. Sri Gur Sobha written in 1711 by Sainapat
"
Guru Tegh Bahadur emerged,
He covered all of creation with his protection.
He protected karam and dharam,
His eternal story was witnessed in the Kaliyug.|14|
His fame spread across the world like this,
He safeguarded all dharam.
Whose praise resounds in the three worlds,
Satiguru, protected honor in this way.|15|
Forehead mark, sacred thread, and places ofworship,
235
They became firm because of his compassion.
For the sake of dharam, he went to the abode of God"

Selected Academic Sources

"
Agnihotri, H.L. and Chand R. Agnihotri.Guru Tegh Bahadur: Hind di chadar.Hisar: Gopal
Prakashan, 1996. 124p.
Anand, Balwant Singh.Guru Tegh Bahadur: A biography.New Delhi: Sterling Publishers,
1979. 235p.
Anand, G.S.Guru Tegh Bahadur.Agra: Agra University, 1970.
Anand, G.S.Some aspects of Guru Tegh Bahadur's life and work.Panjab Past and Present,
10(1), Apr 1976, 10–15.
Attar Singh.Guru Tegh Bahadur upheld religious freedom.Spokesman Weekly, 24(14), 16–23
Dec 1974, 2.
Baagha, Ajit Singh.Palprsnavali or Guru Tegh Bahadur's mission in historical perspective.
Amritsar: Fakir Singh and Sons, 1975. 136p.
Bakshi, S.R.Guru Teg Bahadur: Ninth Guru. InEncyclopaedia of Gurus.New Delhi: Rima
Publishing House, 1994. Vol. 5.
Bal, S.S.Awakening the oppressed. Guru Tegh Bahadur's role and its reason.Sikh Review,
23(264), Dec 1975, 56–60.
Banerjee, A.C.Guru Tegh Bahadur (1621–1675). In Harbans Singh, Ed.Encyclopaedia of
Sikhism. Patiala: Punjabi University, 1998. Vol. 4: 329–34.
Bhandari, Sujan Rai.Guru Tegh Bahadur in the world of contemporary.Panjab Past and
Present, 9(1), Apr 1975, 7–.
Chatterji, Suniti Kumar.Guru Tegh Bahadur: The sacrifices.Sikh Review, 23(264), Dec 1975,
96–99.
Chronology ofGuru Tegh Bahadur.Panjab Past and Present, 9(1), Apr 1975, 233–36.
Daljeet Singh (Raja).Guru Tegh Bahadur.Patiala: Language Department, 1971. 171p.
Dalip Singh.Guru Tegh Bahadur.New Delhi: Young Sikh Cultural Association, 1975. 32p.
Darshan Singh.Ninth Nanak: A historical biography.Jullundhur: K. Lal, 1975. 120p.
SIKH GURUS 77
Deora, Man Singh.Guru Tegh Bahadur: A select bibliography.Studies in Sikhism and Com-parative Religion, 2(1), Apr 1983, 132–48.
Dhawan, S.K.Guru Tegh Bahadur, the ninth Guru: A chronology.Delhi: Deepalika Book
Traders, 1976. 110p.
Dhillon, Gurdial Singh.Guru Tegh Bahadur: A many splendoured genius.Spokesman Weekly,
25(17), 22 Dec 1975, 3–4.
Dhillon, Gurdial Singh.Guru Tegh Bahadur: Dispenser of ideal prescription.Sikh Review,
24(265), Jan 1976, 120–22.
Doabia, Harbans Singh.Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib: Life history, sacred hymns and teach-ings: Original Panjabi & Hindi translation and transliteration. Amritsar: Singh Bros, 1975.
183p.
Fauja Singh.Bhat Vahisas a source for the life of Guru Tegh Bahadur.Sikh Review, 24(265),
Jan 1976, 75–85.
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It appears now

There are contemporary sources to prove you wrong and your theory has been debunked by scholars.
 
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pankaj nema

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@ Mayura

Sikhism SAVED Hinduism from Islamists especially Aurangzeb

I am a proud Hindu but I am aware of the important role played by Sikhs when Aurangzeb was
Mountains of Hindu skulls

It was the Maratha rebellion and later on the Sikh rebellion which saved Hindus in North India
from extinction because the Mughal forces were distracted
 

MAYURA

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@Singh

Coming to Points 1. and 3.

Since, you admitted that you lifted Point 1. and Point 4. from the "Dictionary of Islam" written by Reverend TP Hughes of the Church, a century+ back. And you also agreed with him.




I agree with him more than i disagree , however i did not lift 1st point from him. It is my own thought based on world history. Anyway, my original point is that sikhism is quasiabrahmic and not fully abrahmic like judaism or christianity. Now you would ask why quasiabrahmic, it is because despite being iconoclastic in nature sikhism does not believe in killing and raping non sikhs unlike the desert bloc religions and it also forbids killing of innocents. When i call sikhism as quasiabrahmic, i mean its fierce iconoclasm and nothing more.


Conclusion 1:
Books written around the 20 the Century, by Foreigners are to be deemed Scholarly irrespective and their word is to be believed to be the gospel truth.
No works written in the last Century shed any new light.
Books written by "whiteman" are not necessarily right or correct.

Then how can the work of TP Hughes be considered authoritative ? So we conclude that you reject on flimsy grounds anything which you find contrary to your pre-conceived and wild notions.

Ergo TP Hughes work is to be rejected and your conclusion about Sikhs being an Islamic Sect are false.
===

I do not have any wild notions first. I am not asking you to consider the work of TP Hughes as gospel but saying that similar thoughts have been arrived at by people far more intelligent than me and you. However, the idea that his work is to be forsaken because it is 100 years old is wrong as holy literature of sikhs was available to him so you can not attack on this ground. Yes, books written by whitemen may not be true and there is nothing so remarkable about this.

I never said that I consider TP Hughes work good as he was white so rest of your exercise is nipped in bud.



Why would Sikhs, an Islamic Sect save their "Hindu" sisters from Muslims ? Why would a "Sikh" Guru give up his life for "Dharma" when they being an Islamic Sect they consider Hindus to be a "Kufar" ?

Sikhs cannot be an Islamic Sect, because they saved their "Hindu" sisters from Muslims, refuse to marry muslims, eat halal, became martyrs for the cause of "kufar".

===
So both your arguments in support of your allegations have been proven wrong.

I have already said that sikhs were quasiabrahmic not fully abrahmic. Sikhism is the only monotheistic religion which does not believe in jehad or crusade so humanity is still there unlike full abrahmics, it is sikhism's icnoclasm which led me to call it Islamic sect. The concept of one true god and attack on mother godesses is due to islamic nature of sikhism however in behaviour and conduct sikhs are more indic than arabs like sikhs abhor cousin marriage which is normal for an arab.

You are asking why sikhs were protecting hindu sisters, well they were great heroes but this does not mean that on a theoretical level they are not quasiabrahmic.


"wherever brahmannic civilization was not entrenched,the muslims multiplied"

I made two points
A. Kashmir was the bastion of Brahmins and Brahminic Civilization, and today it is Muslim dominated.
B. And in the case of Guru Tegh Bahadur Hindus themselves came to the Sikhs for their assistance to prevent their forcible conversions. Sikhs who you claim are an Islamic Sect. So Brahminic Civilization couldn't have stopped Islamic conversion.

Now,
For A. You have not provided any counter-argument for the same.
For B. You have given a boatload of arguments such as

For A I have given arguments like kashmir being too small to take for our study. Normally, jats are taller than Biharis but there are jats in haryana who may be lesser in height than many bihari women so do not count on exceptions.

Kashmir was so small that even a few people turning to islam may have great repercussions. Anyway, the hindu poipulation in JK is more than 30 percent which is more than Punjab as a whole where hindus are less than 20 percent.

Secondly, producing writers like Kalhana, Kshemendra, Abhinavgupta does not mean society is heavily brahminized as example of kerala proves. The fact is that kashmir had low level of brahmanic civilization as it was housed by many hill tribesmen which down to our ages were savages. The Gilgit area had lecherous people which shows the primitive social nature of the communities . Kashmir was land of Agams but it was housed by damars and bakarwals mainly. Read Rajatarangini to know that kashmir had large segment of people outside brahmanical social order just like Punjab and East Bengal.

Same is the case with Kerala where brahmins appeared too late and were very less so they could not aryanize the area and we have situation that majority of kerala relish beef which brahmins abhor and no mention of Shankaracharya can change the fact that kerali society was less brahmanized as compared to other south states and that is why you have large number of muslims and christians in the state.


1. Guru Tegh Bahadur gave up his life to save Hindus from Islam

References:
Selected Contemporary Sources (all within 4 decades of his martyrdom)

1. Bachitar Natak by Guru Gobind Singh in 17th Century
"He protected the janeu and tilak of the Hindus, It was a great event in the modern ages. For the sake of humankind, he sacrificed himself. He laid down his head but not his creed
I have told you about its flexibility as far as interpretation is concerned. There are many sikh authors like Bishan Singh who question this.


5. Sri Gur Sobha written in 1711 by Sainapat
"
Guru Tegh Bahadur emerged,
He covered all of creation with his protection.
He protected karam and dharam,
His eternal story was witnessed in the Kaliyug.|14|
His fame spread across the world like this,
He safeguarded all dharam.
Whose praise resounds in the three worlds,
Satiguru, protected honor in this way.|15|
Forehead mark, sacred thread, and places ofworship,
235
They became firm because of his compassion.
For the sake of dharam, he went to the abode of God"

From all this we may conclude that Guru Tegabahadur is described as someone who protected janeu and tilak but do you know that janeu and tilak in those times was not just held by brahmins but also other upper castes.?

The moment you give me a source that talks about kashmiri pandit thing, i will in all humility accept that Tegabahadur did save large number of pandits.

You have done great work but any unbiased person will tell me and you that your one liners open to many interpretations are not proving kashmir story at all.


Your massive evidence has forced me to concede that Tegabahdadur did save few upper caste hindus from hands of Aurangzeb and this is great but does not prove kashmiri story which is surprising. The thing that raised my suspicion last time was that no mughal source talks about any such thing so same must be there in sikh sources but so far Kashmiri thing is not there.



I am fully aware of billions of secondary books by scholars but i never demanded them so your idea of frightening me is not logical.
 
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MAYURA

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@ Mayura

Sikhism SAVED Hinduism from Islamists especially Aurangzeb

I am a proud Hindu but I am aware of the important role played by Sikhs when Aurangzeb was
Mountains of Hindu skulls

It was the Maratha rebellion and later on the Sikh rebellion which saved Hindus in North India
from extinction because the Mughal forces were distracted
No one saved hindus, it were hindus who saved themselves from other invaders. The problem is that sikhism became active as force in military area only after marathas had sacked the mughal dominions. Sikhs were completely powerless in front of aurangzeb or his sons so the idea that they protected anyone at that time is wrong. Guru Tegabahadur was also serving in mughal army and Gobind Singhji later on became trusted man of son of Aurangzeb. Even Aurangzeb did not have bad relations with Gobind singhji at one point of time.

Sikhs controlled an area which today is 70 percent muslim so i do not know how they saved anything? Sikh empire had many areas but very few of them are in present hindustan so the suggestion of they saving north indian hindus is a myth.

However, they played a good role in saving hindu women from amorours advances of afghans and also stopped cow killing things no one can deny but saving hindus is going too far.

If I am allowed, I can show that they in longer run could not do much as areas dominated by sikhs were already muslim majority ones.
 

Singh

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@Singh

I agree with him more than i disagree , however i did not lift 1st point from him. It is my own thought based on world history. Anyway, my original point is that sikhism is quasiabrahmic and not fully abrahmic like judaism or christianity. Now you would ask why quasiabrahmic, it is because despite being iconoclastic in nature sikhism does not believe in killing and raping non sikhs unlike the desert bloc religions and it also forbids killing of innocents. When i call sikhism as quasiabrahmic, i mean its fierce iconoclasm and nothing more.
1. How is Sikhism Iconoclastic ? Please provide relevant source, arguments, evidences and facts. I can't take your word, which means nothing.

2. Why is being Iconoclastic a necessary and sufficient for a religion to be called Abrahamic ?

3. Abrahamic Religions typically are Islam, Judaism and Christianity because they have similar spiritual and theological traditions, however, you have in one broad sweep declared that to be a non-criterion. Please provide convincing arguments, and atleast a dozen scholarly works which agree with you.

4. Calling a religion Quasi-Abrahamic when it has no theological similarity is disingenuous and stretching the truth.
You and a Rat have over 90% Similarity in DNA, so are you a quasi rat or is a rat a quasi human ?

I do not have any wild notions first. I am not asking you to consider the work of TP Hughes as gospel but saying that similar thoughts have been arrived at by people far more intelligent than me and you. However, the idea that his work is to be forsaken because it is 100 years old is wrong as holy literature of sikhs was available to him so you can not attack on this ground. Yes, books written by whitemen may not be true and there is nothing so remarkable about this.

I never said that I consider TP Hughes work good as he was white so rest of your exercise is nipped in bud.
1. Which People more intelligent than me have arrived at the same conclusions as TP Hughes ? Please provide at least a dozen sources and their qualifications.
2. TP Hughes wrote a Book on Islam, not on Sikhism. His treatment of Sikhism makes a meage ~1% of his 700pages. His Scholarship of Sikhism is suspect, to put mildly
3. Please provide citations, references, convincing arguments which prove that TP Hughes was an authoritative scholar of Sikhism, and rest of the Scholars who researched Sikhism all their lives need to have their works refected because of the few pages Reverend TP Hughes wrote about Sikhs in his book on Islam.

4. There are 100 Pages of References only I can give you which differ from TP Hughes conclusions. If you want I will past every single one of them. And I can provide screenshots to provide proof of those 100 pages.

I have already said that sikhs were quasiabrahmic not fully abrahmic.
Same old horse shit from you Avantivarman.

You have not provided any convincing arguments, references, evidences. This is your opinion, and it means jackshit. You are discredited.

I say you are quasicircumcised, because you talk just like a circumcised mullah. Or better you practice quasi-incest because you talk just like an inbred mullah.

For a religion to be called Abrahamic, it must have a common spiritual tradition, "allegedly" Sharing traits doesn't cut it.

You have to first disprove this notion, then establish that being iconoclastic is a sufficient and necessary condition to be called an Abrahamic religion, and then provide examples of each of the Abrahamic Religions are Iconoclastic.


==
Sikhism is the only monotheistic religion which does not believe in jehad or crusade so humanity is still there unlike full abrahmics, it is sikhism's icnoclasm which led me to call it Islamic sect.
You just insulted over 2 billion living humans by calling their religions as inhumane and because of their practice of their religion, they themselves are inhumane. Well done.

You are yet to provide any examples of how Sikhism is "Iconoclastic " ?
How come Islam is Iconoclastic ?
Why sharing the common trait or Iconoclasm is a necessary and sufficient condition to call Sikhism an Islamic Sect ?
And why does Sikhism's theology and spiritual traditions which make it antithetical to Islamic theology still make it an Islamic Sect ?
Which other idiots share this opinion ? I would love to see references.

=====

The concept of one true god and attack on mother godesses is due to islamic nature of sikhism
1. The first two letters of Sikhism are Ik Omkar, which translates to there is but one God, and it is in the form of Om. I didn't know OM, the one true God, was an Islamic concept.

2. What do you mean by Attack on Mother Goddess ?

3. What is Islamic nature of Sikhism ? What is Hindu nature of Sikhism ? What is Secular nature of Sikhism ? What is fun nature of Sikhism ? What is Scientific nature of Sikhism ? What is Christian nature of Sikhism ?
Please provide examples, references, evidences and arguments.

however in behaviour and conduct sikhs are more indic than arabs like sikhs abhor cousin marriage which is normal for an arab.
Turks didn't marry their Cousins, ergo Turks are Indic too.

You are asking why sikhs were protecting hindu sisters, well they were great heroes but this does not mean that on a theoretical level they are not quasiabrahmic.
Sikhs were great heroes because it was in their "islamic nature", to fight Muslims to save the honour of Hindu women, when the Hindu men were hapless.

Do you see the dichotomy ?


For A I have given arguments like kashmir being too small to take for our study.
A Hypothesis to be accepted has to be true and valid everywhere.

Your Hypothesis is wherever Brahminic Civilization was there the Muslims didn't multiply.

Lets start with the Crown of Brahminic Civilization, Kashmir. In Kashmir, Muslims are in a majority. Ergo Proved Wrong.

Case closed. Every region of India is small when compared to the United Landmass.


Normally, jats are taller than Biharis but there are jats in haryana who may be lesser in height than many bihari women so do not count on exceptions.
A facetious argument.

If I say that no Jaat can be smaller than a Bihari, then I am making a claim and even if 1 Bihari is taller than a Jaat, then my claim is quashed.
If I say that Jaats are on an average taller than Biharis, then I am allowing room for exceptions and relying on statistics to support me.

Kashmir was so small that even a few people turning to islam may have great repercussions.
You were quite clear when you said that where-ever there was Brahminic Civilization there the Muslims didn't multiply.

Please don't shift goalposts.

Anyway, the hindu poipulation in JK is more than 30 percent which is more than Punjab as a whole where hindus are less than 20 percent.
Could you provide
1. Govt Census report to prove your claim
2. IF not then any authoritative or reputable work



Secondly, producing writers like Kalhana, Kshemendra, Abhinavgupta does not mean society is heavily brahminized as example of kerala proves. The fact is that kashmir had low level of brahmanic civilization as it was housed by many hill tribesmen which down to our ages were savages. The Gilgit area had lecherous people which shows the primitive social nature of the communities . Kashmir was land of Agams but it was housed by damars and bakarwals mainly. Read Rajatarangini to know that kashmir had large segment of people outside brahmanical social order just like Punjab and East Bengal.
Same is the case with Kerala where brahmins appeared too late and were very less so they could not aryanize the area and we have situation that majority of kerala relish beef which brahmins abhor and no mention of Shankaracharya can change the fact that kerali society was less brahmanized as compared to other south states and that is why you have large number of muslims and christians in the state.
Now, we are in a quandry and a royal mess Vibhakar Singh from Mumbai.

In the definition of Brahminic Civilization you said

Brahmanic civilization is a short hand for a system of worship where there are five principal cults namely vaishnavism, haivism, shaktism( jai mata di) , Saura and Ganapatya, the system has well defined concepts of caste and brahmin supremacy, abstains from beef, has Puranas and vedas along with Ramayana and Mahabharata.
Then you claim Kashmir had low level Brahmanic Civilization, becauseDuggar Desh, Baltistan etc. were inhabited by savages.

Since you are perhaps not aware of "Kashmir" it is made up of different regions : Jammu (Dogra), Na-Azad Kashmir(Punjabi/Dogri),Ladakh(Ladakhi),Baltistan(Balti), and finally Kashmir.

Lets talk about the Kashmir Region (Kashmir is a Vale nestled between Duggar lands(Punjabi and related dialect speaking), Baltistan(Tibetan Languages)

1. It Practiced Saivism
2. It had a well defined system of caste, in fact Brahmins were the dominant, and overwhelming majority and perhaps for all practical purposes the only caste
3. Abstained from Beef (Sikhs got Beef banned when they assumed control of Kashmir)
4. They followed Itihas, Puranas, and Vedantic literature.

So it satisfies all your conditions
====

Now, the issue is this
1. Brahminic Civilization and its arbitrary definition has been invented by you
2. Brahminic Civilization's levels are arbitrarily defined by you
3. Sources and Texts which point out to a regions Brahminic Civilization are also arbitrarily decided by you
4. Regions where your hypothesis fails, you reject it on flimsy grounds.

In such a case you can never be wrong.

I have told you about its flexibility as far as interpretation is concerned.
The interpretation of a particular passage can be different depending on individual to individual, acknwoledged.

But Avantivarman what did I do ?

I threw at you contemporary sources which had a common signifying thread which proved that Guru Tegh Bahadur martyred himself for the cause of Hindus.

For eg.

Text 1 says Roses are red.
Text 2 says there are many flowers, of which roses are red
Text 3 says the most prestigious amongst red flower is the rose.

From all three texts what data do I arrive at ? Roses are Red.


There are many sikh authors like Bishan Singh who question this.
"Giani Bishan Singh of Khalsa College, Amritsar (1957) has translated the entire Dasam Granth.
He has translated the line, "Tilak Janju Rakha Prabh Ta Ka" as "The Almighty God protected the Tilak and Janju
of the Hindus."
Translating the next line "Dharam het saka jin kiya," Giani Bishan Singh
writes its meaning as, "Guru did this saka (incident) for the sake of Dharma."

What has Giani Bishan Singh questioned ?

Can you please name atleast 50 sources which Question this ? I have provided contemporary and Scholarly sources.
Including hundreds of those which deal specifically with the martyrdom of Guru Tegh Bahadur.

Having different intrepretations by different authors doesn't negate the common thread that Guru Tegh Bahadur's martyred saved the Hindus from conversion to Islam.

From all this we may conclude that Guru Tegabahadur is described as someone who protected janeu and tilak but do you know that janeu and tilak in those times was not just held by brahmins but also other upper castes.?
You have actually bolstered my argument. Okay all Upper Caste Hindus at the time did wear Tilak and Janeu.

This proves that the martyrdom of Guru Tegh Bahadur saved Upper Caste Hindus from conversion.

Now getting back to Sikh History, the "sakhis" of the Gurus were compiled together in various granths which were published later. The establishment of Sikh rule and the decline of Mughal empire, prompted efforts to collect, collate and publish Sikh accounts.

You wanted contemporary sources, of the time when the Sikh Guru was martyred and the next Sikh Gurus sons were martyred. And yet it was thrown at you.


The moment you give me a source that talks about kashmiri pandit thing, i will in all humility accept that Tegabahadur did save large number of pandits.
For the sake of argument, there is no source about Kashmiri Pandits. Although, if you read the academic works on martyrdom there are plenty. And if you read the later Sikh history, there are detailed accounts.

Those couldn't have been published earlier, because the Sikhs were being hunted by the Mughals.

But there are atleast 4 contemporary sources which point out that the Sikh Guru did save the Hindus write to wear Tilak and Janeu, in effect not only did they save a large number of Pandits, but all those who did wear the Tilak and Janeu.


You have done great work but any unbiased person will tell me and you that your one liners open to many interpretations are not proving kashmir story at all.
Who cares about the Kashmir story ?


Look at this way

1. Your hypothesis is bs
2. Your hypothesis has been proven wrong because Kashmir Valley is Muslim dominated
3. Brahminic Civilzation couldn't prevent muslims from multiplying, because this civilizations members themselves were saved by the Sikh Gurus.


====

Your massive evidence has forced me to concede that Tegabahdadur did save few upper caste hindus from hands of Aurangzeb and this is great but does not prove kashmiri story which is surprising.
Almost all of the Academic Sources lay emphasis on Kashmir Pandit Story, but irrespect it proves to me that Hinduism was saved by the sacrifice of the Sikh Gurus. The mountain of evidence is too big to brush aside and/or be dwarfed by petty individuals inflated egos.

The thing that raised my suspicion last time was that no mughal source talks about any such thing so same must be there in sikh sources but so far Kashmiri thing is not there
I am fully aware of billions of secondary books by scholars but i never demanded them so your idea of frightening me is not logical.
Fortunately, Scholars are Scholars, and you are just an internet troll.
 
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blank_quest

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religious thekedars taking thekedari and posting over an ''idea of god", :lol:
 

TrueSpirit

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@MAYURA,

In post 252 of this thread : early-mauryan-temples-discovered-hardoi, you wrote that:

We can not become superpower as we lack genes specific to that. In case you are not getting it, please know that American chinese professor has written a book on this.
Could you please the details of that book ?
 
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