QUAD; The Concert of Democracies for Trade, Security & Diplomacy

Optimistic Nihilist

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Despite wishful thinking Russian Oil and Gas is going to the west. Just see the rage when Gas price was hiked in winter in Europe. Reducing purchasing power is something no leader wish to face, and getting cheap gas from UAE or Qatar is not a viable solution. So EU will still need Russian Gas :)
Why do you think Russian gas and oil companies have not been sanctioned by west?
Don't form your opinion on some random article on The Economist or BBC. The Bear is here to stay, Putin be "apna time ayega".
None of that changes the point, in fact it strengthens it, that the Russian economy is on shaky legs. Russia is struggling and if they wanted Ukraine they would easily get it.

No one is going to stop them ( or even can stop them). The US has lost its appetite for war. France is.....well France. Germany isn't a threat to anyone but their own citizens. So no one can stop them and Europe needs its fuel so who is stopping them?

They are stopping themselves because the strain it would cause will break their already struggling economy.

Ruble almost stopped existing after the Crimean occupation. Shelves were empty all over Russia and there was full on panic. They won't survive an attack on any of Nato and Non-Nato members like Ukraine simply due to it being too costly which won't be outweighed by any advantages and will choke the Russian economy.

If Amrika's Foreign Minister's words are anything to go by, they won't simply sit on the sidelines.
 

Love Charger

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None of that changes the point, in fact it strengthens it, that the Russian economy is on shaky legs. Russia is struggling and if they wanted Ukraine they would easily get it.

No one is going to stop them ( or even can stop them). The US has lost its appetite for war. France is.....well France. Germany isn't a threat to anyone but their own citizens. So no one can stop them and Europe needs its fuel so who is stopping them?

They are stopping themselves because the strain it would cause will break their already struggling economy.

Ruble almost stopped existing after the Crimean occupation. Shelves were empty all over Russia and there was full on panic. They won't survive an attack on any of Nato and Non-Nato members like Ukraine simply due to it being too costly which won't be outweighed by any advantages and will choke the Russian economy.

If Amrika's Foreign Minister's words are anything to go by, they won't simply sit on the sidelines.
Russia is also weak inernally ,
 

Optimistic Nihilist

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Russia is also weak inernally ,
True.

Russia has a shitload of problems. The economy grows a little then recedes back, they still have brain drain issues where younger, educated people leave for higher salaries in the west, they are getting raped by covid at the moment and literally 70% of the population does not trust their own country's vaccine.

They don't really have a lot to sell other than oil/gas, and no one invests there because no one trusts in the contract laws there or in the laws in general. Police can still easily be bribed and it's an accepted cultural norm there, and the young people don't really like Putin that much. The old ones love him, but the younger zoomers are not into him at all. Even though the world's RW loves Putin, the actual RW in Russia holds Putin in contempt because they actually think he's a leftist in a RW guy's garb.

The pensions completely suck there, and likely they will have to cut them even more to fund their weapons development to keep up with the west.

I am not saying everything is doom and gloom, it is definitely better than the absolute total hell that it was in the early 90s, but to say that everything is rosy or even good there is a big overstatement.
 

JBH22

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None of that changes the point, in fact it strengthens it, that the Russian economy is on shaky legs. Russia is struggling and if they wanted Ukraine they would easily get it.
Did sanctions collapse their economy since 2014? In fact the ban by EU on agricultural exports to Russia had the opposite effect since the agricultural sector is booming. If i'm not mistaken they are nearly self sufficient.
Will the USA or EU attempt an armed struggle to save Ukraine should Russian troops flood in? During Crimea Operation they were just mute spectators. The takedown of Crimea was a wonderful operation.

No one is going to stop them ( or even can stop them). The US has lost its appetite for war. France is.....well France. Germany isn't a threat to anyone but their own citizens. So no one can stop them and Europe needs its fuel so who is stopping them?
They will fight by firing gun from Ukrainian shoulder. Make use of all these Nazis.
End result will be misery for the slavic people.[/QUOTE]

They are stopping themselves because the strain it would cause will break their already struggling economy.
They are planning the takedown of Ukrainian imo will be a quick one. Not giving others time to react.
They must be having assets in Ukraine establishment, once they will steam roll many units will just desert save for the radicals. You have seen in eastern ukraine without air support they created encircled large ukrainian formations.

Ruble almost stopped existing after the Crimean occupation. Shelves were empty all over Russia and there was full on panic. They won't survive an attack on any of Nato and Non-Nato members like Ukraine simply due to it being too costly which won't be outweighed by any advantages and will choke the Russian economy.
If Amrika's Foreign Minister's words are anything to go by, they won't simply sit on the sidelines.
It was just a setback, but I understand they are back with a bang in the agricultural/food security segment.
The main problem Russians have is lack of dynamism in economy due to collapsing demography, that is their biggest problem. Frankly it is the only thing that will sink them.
Economy yeh bread butter thing, they survived worst. See 1990s.
Russia is the world's largest wheat exporter, supplying it mainly to the Middle East, Africa and Asia. It competes with the European Union and Ukraine, among others.
 

Love Charger

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True.

Russia has a shitload of problems. The economy grows a little then recedes back, they still have brain drain issues where younger, educated people leave for higher salaries in the west, they are getting raped by covid at the moment and literally 70% of the population does not trust their own country's vaccine.

They don't really have a lot to sell other than oil/gas, and no one invests there because no one trusts in the contract laws there or in the laws in general. Police can still easily be bribed and it's an accepted cultural norm there, and the young people don't really like Putin that much. The old ones love him, but the younger zoomers are not into him at all. Even though the world's RW loves Putin, the actual RW in Russia holds Putin in contempt because they actually think he's a leftist in a RW guy's garb.

The pensions completely suck there, and likely they will have to cut them even more to fund their weapons development to keep up with the west.

I am not saying everything is doom and gloom, it is definitely better than the absolute total hell that it was in the early 90s, but to say that everything is rosy or even good there is a big overstatement.
Russia still holds together though
 

Love Charger

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Just how bad Russia was in the 90s ? Tell more about it.
 

Optimistic Nihilist

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Did sanctions collapse their economy since 2014? In fact the ban by EU on agricultural exports to Russia had the opposite effect since the agricultural sector is booming. If i'm not mistaken they are nearly self sufficient.
Will the USA or EU attempt an armed struggle to save Ukraine should Russian troops flood in? During Crimea Operation they were just mute spectators. The takedown of Crimea was a wonderful operation.


They will fight by firing gun from Ukrainian shoulder. Make use of all these Nazis.
End result will be misery for the slavic people.

They are planning the takedown of Ukrainian imo will be a quick one. Not giving others time to react.
They must be having assets in Ukraine establishment, once they will steam roll many units will just desert save for the radicals. You have seen in eastern ukraine without air support they created encircled large ukrainian formations.


It was just a setback, but I understand they are back with a bang in the agricultural/food security segment.
The main problem Russians have is lack of dynamism in economy due to collapsing demography, that is their biggest problem. Frankly it is the only thing that will sink them.
Economy yeh bread butter thing, they survived worst. See 1990s.
I don't think anybody ever claimed that the 2014 sanctions will "collapse" Russia. You have to view things in totality. Russia's economy was rising pretty rapidly, until the year 2014 when it fell, and has kept falling since then. The Russian economy lost half of its GDP in 5 years and still has not recovered. That is just sanctions.

They only recently had their first ever plane since USSR collapse. 90% of all parts are made abroad and they are basically just putting them together in Russia.

About the agricultural and other sectors too, you have to view things in totality. More than 2/3 of their exports are RAW resources, they do not even process them at all. All upcoming pipes are precisely for that purpose - to export more raw resources. Another example, their farm industry relies on seeds from Europe/China. Germany can make a funny move and ban seed selling to Russia and they will starve to death there.

Want another funny example? After 2014 sanctions Russian government decided to start "импopтoзaмeщeниe" campaign, basically bankroll to produce stuff in Russia. Results? Superb, their beef production gained 500% from 2014 to 2019. Catch? Russians actually consume even less beef in 2019 than they did in 2014, meaning ALL that production went to export, in other words their government bankrolled export campaign which sees people abroad happy and fed, not local population.

Russia only stabilized in the early 2000s and soon after that they got screwed by the 2008 crisis, and after that in 2014 the mix of heavy sanctions and record low oil prices almost killed their economy.

Their demographics and economy are indeed an absolute flaming turd. South Korea, hell even Texas has a bigger economy than Russia's.

Russia is basically a fake economy, it imports significant amounts of oil, it depends on Sakhalin offshore wells producing what little cheap light oil it has and those are aged. Russia has some of the highest water cuts in the world, it has a quarter million wells production 10m bpd which is 50 barrels a day per well. A normal oil well is 1kbpd. Russia is probably producing 20 barrels of water for every barrel of oil and its non condensate, useful oil exports are low and its had a lot of fraud scandals from contaminating it.

But the offshore is also dying like I said, Russian economy is in bad shape and there is no remedy to the situation. Everyone collapses at the same time, America slightly later because government and Bureaucracy delayed offshore oil hence there's a bit of that left.

The Russia Stronk meme is just that, my friend. A meme.

Regarding the war with Ukraine, open war with Ukraine would be a retarded move by Ruskies. It's not like they're in top economical shape and killing basically their brothers in blood wouldn't serve morale. It's one thing to kill terrorist Chechens and quite another to kill people who speak basically the same language and look the same as you.

Putin's not dumb enough to go to war with NATO, though he might invade Ukraine to PREVENT it's ascension to NATO or grab land before it can join.

Ukraine will be a mess for Russia though even without Western intervention, they'll be fighting stay-behinds and guerillas long after the war itself is over.

My guess is Russia would focus on seizing the ethnic Russian-dominated eastern regions of Ukraine + a land bridge to Crimea. They might try and install a friendly government in Kiev to rule the remaining Ukrainian rump but they also might not. Better to have a quick victory than a long occupation.

Biden is a senile, evil dumbfuck but even he and his handlers don't want an all-out war with Russia, especially when their approval is already in the shitter. Biden is way too senile to believably pretend to be leading the country in a time of war, and the other two in the succession lineup are just as terrible; Kamala is an unlikable bitch, Pelosi is an alcoholic 80 year old unlikable bitch, and Patrick Leahy is older than all of them.

What they might do in the case of Russian invasion of Ukraine is spin it into a crisis in order to cause a "rally around the flag" effect. Nothing major, just 24/7 media coverage of Russian atrocities in Ukraine, send troops to Poland to look tough, maybe sell some Stingers and Javelins to Ukrainian Army/guerillas. Biden puts on a clean diaper, takes his medication, puts on his mirror shades and gives a speech about how tough he is and how Putin better beware, yadda yadda yadda.

It won't work because the war hawks will want him to do more to fight the Russians, and everyone else will want him to do less because they don't want to get nuked, and everyone will see through it as a blatant attempt by Biden to LARP as a tough SOB.
 

Optimistic Nihilist

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Just how bad Russia was in the 90s ? Tell more about it.
You cannot even begin to imagine. If you have time, then read this book.

1637693697352.png


They genuinely wanted to try out the Western way after the Soviet Union collapsed, and the West intentionally crippled their economy via (((Shock Therapy))) to ensure they could never be a threat for decades.

West also promised no NATO troops east of East Germany after the German unification and that quickly went out the window as well.

The more you understand about how bad it was, the more you will understand how easy it was for someone like Putin to come to power and why Russia today doesn't seem interested in replacing him with someone else.

Bank managers had to order thugs to break people's legs for unpaid debts, people would drive their motorcycles after drinking 2 bottles of vodka, murders were common, parents used to go without much food so that they could feed their children at one point.

Post USSR Russia was ready to welcome America and the west, but all that did was open the country to being exploited and robbed.

Imagine that you're an average Soviet worker in the 80s. Maybe there are already some shortages, but you have a stable job, the full gamut of social protections and a sense of stability. You have a home, a dacha, two kids growing up. The TV shows wholesome stuff about harvests and the latest scientific achievements. If only you knew how bad things were going to get.

Then suddenly overnight the USSR "collapses". You are told to invest your suddenly worthless ruble savings into privatization vouchers. You have no idea how doing business in capitalism works, so you end up investing into a pyramid scheme and losing everything. Your factory gets closed up and its equipment sold to the West because it was "unprofitable" - nothing is anymore except oil, everything that isn't bolted down is getting lifted and sold to the West for a pittance.

You end up collecting bottles for a living. Your underage daughter starts skipping school to prostitute herself to support her family, but ends up spending everything on drugs. Your son gets shot in a gang war. The TV is crime reports 24/7 because that's what gets people glued to screens. Sometimes it's charlatans offering to charge your water with positive energy. Sometimes it's your leadership openly licking American boots, talking about how the USSR was evil and totalitarian, and saying how good it is that we're "good friends with the US now".

You end up having to rely on subsistence farming on your dacha in order to simply not to starve to death. Your apartment in the city gets taken by the mafia and eventually you just freeze to death on your dacha. That, without exaggeration, was the fate of millions of Russians who didn't "fit into the market". That is a quote by the leading ideologue of privatization, Anatoli Chubays, by the way. "So what if 30 millions or whatever die out? They didn't fit into the market."

It was Hell on Earth. It's one of the greatest humanitarian catastrophes and episodes of human suffering in history. We can't even comprehend the enormity of horror back then. Nothing but Chechnya and crime on the TV. Fathers became smugglers. Mothers came home bruised, robbed, possibly raped frequently.

Grandmothers having nervous breakdowns because they are the only family member with a stable job with the state and single-handedly provided for half a dozen people. Everything is filthy, the ground is littered with used heroin syringes, streets are filled with people peddling random goods in makeshift "markets" just to survive. And that was in the latter half of the 90s when everything was slowly getting better due to growing oil prices. The earlier years were 10x as apocalyptic.

I remember reading once that the demographic and economic devastation caused by the fall of the USSR and privatization rivals that of WW2. Sounds about right to me to be honest. The only thing more destructive than this in my opinion in Russian History is the Soviet Revolution of 1917.
 

Love Charger

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You cannot even begin to imagine. If you have time, then read this book.

View attachment 121336

They genuinely wanted to try out the Western way after the Soviet Union collapsed, and the West intentionally crippled their economy via (((Shock Therapy))) to ensure they could never be a threat for decades.

West also promised no NATO troops east of East Germany after the German unification and that quickly went out the window as well.

The more you understand about how bad it was, the more you will understand how easy it was for someone like Putin to come to power and why Russia today doesn't seem interested in replacing him with someone else.

Bank managers had to order thugs to break people's legs for unpaid debts, people would drive their motorcycles after drinking 2 bottles of vodka, murders were common, parents used to go without much food so that they could feed their children at one point.

Post USSR Russia was ready to welcome America and the west, but all that did was open the country to being exploited and robbed.

Imagine that you're an average Soviet worker in the 80s. Maybe there are already some shortages, but you have a stable job, the full gamut of social protections and a sense of stability. You have a home, a dacha, two kids growing up. The TV shows wholesome stuff about harvests and the latest scientific achievements. If only you knew how bad things were going to get.

Then suddenly overnight the USSR "collapses". You are told to invest your suddenly worthless ruble savings into privatization vouchers. You have no idea how doing business in capitalism works, so you end up investing into a pyramid scheme and losing everything. Your factory gets closed up and its equipment sold to the West because it was "unprofitable" - nothing is anymore except oil, everything that isn't bolted down is getting lifted and sold to the West for a pittance.

You end up collecting bottles for a living. Your underage daughter starts skipping school to prostitute herself to support her family, but ends up spending everything on drugs. Your son gets shot in a gang war. The TV is crime reports 24/7 because that's what gets people glued to screens. Sometimes it's charlatans offering to charge your water with positive energy. Sometimes it's your leadership openly licking American boots, talking about how the USSR was evil and totalitarian, and saying how good it is that we're "good friends with the US now".

You end up having to rely on subsistence farming on your dacha in order to simply not to starve to death. Your apartment in the city gets taken by the mafia and eventually you just freeze to death on your dacha. That, without exaggeration, was the fate of millions of Russians who didn't "fit into the market". That is a quote by the leading ideologue of privatization, Anatoli Chubays, by the way. "So what if 30 millions or whatever die out? They didn't fit into the market."

It was Hell on Earth. It's one of the greatest humanitarian catastrophes and episodes of human suffering in history. We can't even comprehend the enormity of horror back then. Nothing but Chechnya and crime on the TV. Fathers became smugglers. Mothers came home bruised, robbed, possibly raped frequently.

Grandmothers having nervous breakdowns because they are the only family member with a stable job with the state and single-handedly provided for half a dozen people. Everything is filthy, the ground is littered with used heroin syringes, streets are filled with people peddling random goods in makeshift "markets" just to survive. And that was in the latter half of the 90s when everything was slowly getting better due to growing oil prices. The earlier years were 10x as apocalyptic.

I remember reading once that the demographic and economic devastation caused by the fall of the USSR and privatization rivals that of WW2. Sounds about right to me to be honest. The only thing more destructive than this in my opinion in Russian History is the Soviet Revolution of 1917.
Give link to the book please w
 

Love Charger

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You cannot even begin to imagine. If you have time, then read this book.

View attachment 121336

They genuinely wanted to try out the Western way after the Soviet Union collapsed, and the West intentionally crippled their economy via (((Shock Therapy))) to ensure they could never be a threat for decades.

West also promised no NATO troops east of East Germany after the German unification and that quickly went out the window as well.

The more you understand about how bad it was, the more you will understand how easy it was for someone like Putin to come to power and why Russia today doesn't seem interested in replacing him with someone else.

Bank managers had to order thugs to break people's legs for unpaid debts, people would drive their motorcycles after drinking 2 bottles of vodka, murders were common, parents used to go without much food so that they could feed their children at one point.

Post USSR Russia was ready to welcome America and the west, but all that did was open the country to being exploited and robbed.

Imagine that you're an average Soviet worker in the 80s. Maybe there are already some shortages, but you have a stable job, the full gamut of social protections and a sense of stability. You have a home, a dacha, two kids growing up. The TV shows wholesome stuff about harvests and the latest scientific achievements. If only you knew how bad things were going to get.

Then suddenly overnight the USSR "collapses". You are told to invest your suddenly worthless ruble savings into privatization vouchers. You have no idea how doing business in capitalism works, so you end up investing into a pyramid scheme and losing everything. Your factory gets closed up and its equipment sold to the West because it was "unprofitable" - nothing is anymore except oil, everything that isn't bolted down is getting lifted and sold to the West for a pittance.

You end up collecting bottles for a living. Your underage daughter starts skipping school to prostitute herself to support her family, but ends up spending everything on drugs. Your son gets shot in a gang war. The TV is crime reports 24/7 because that's what gets people glued to screens. Sometimes it's charlatans offering to charge your water with positive energy. Sometimes it's your leadership openly licking American boots, talking about how the USSR was evil and totalitarian, and saying how good it is that we're "good friends with the US now".

You end up having to rely on subsistence farming on your dacha in order to simply not to starve to death. Your apartment in the city gets taken by the mafia and eventually you just freeze to death on your dacha. That, without exaggeration, was the fate of millions of Russians who didn't "fit into the market". That is a quote by the leading ideologue of privatization, Anatoli Chubays, by the way. "So what if 30 millions or whatever die out? They didn't fit into the market."

It was Hell on Earth. It's one of the greatest humanitarian catastrophes and episodes of human suffering in history. We can't even comprehend the enormity of horror back then. Nothing but Chechnya and crime on the TV. Fathers became smugglers. Mothers came home bruised, robbed, possibly raped frequently.

Grandmothers having nervous breakdowns because they are the only family member with a stable job with the state and single-handedly provided for half a dozen people. Everything is filthy, the ground is littered with used heroin syringes, streets are filled with people peddling random goods in makeshift "markets" just to survive. And that was in the latter half of the 90s when everything was slowly getting better due to growing oil prices. The earlier years were 10x as apocalyptic.

I remember reading once that the demographic and economic devastation caused by the fall of the USSR and privatization rivals that of WW2. Sounds about right to me to be honest. The only thing more destructive than this in my opinion in Russian History is the Soviet Revolution of 1917.
Thamks
 

Angel of War

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Oh yeah , Boris Yeltsin was one heck of a rascal . Total drunkard , his economic policies were a disaster . This guy once roamed around in a underwear right outside the whitehouse . He was the reason why russia lost the first chenchen war
This man was Russian president ?
l
 

Tshering22

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Not entirely true, though there are definitely some similarities to Imperial Japanese philosophy. The Middle Kingdom bullshit was not just philosophical, but something the stupid idiots actually believed in, as a mantra that will give them tangible results. The CCP has some belief in it even today.

John Chinaman has no inventions, no achievements, and believes in voodoo.
The modern CCP is quite ahead in many research areas and has innovated a lot. Look at their composite and graphene patents for example. More than anything. Their construction companies are using them, their engineering companies are using them. Meanwhile, our construction lalas are using no new materials and our good innovations are eating dust in some corner of a government university in some cockroach-filled files.

China adopted and improved modular construction long before we even got that concept. In fact, many homes in China (not the cheap apartment blocks that they sell at inflated prices) use the same construction philosophy, allowing them to erect entire cities within months. All while a single house takes 2 years to make in India.

I encourage everyone to learn about traditional Chinese medicine, it’s by far the stupidest thing I have ever come across, and the overwhelming majority of Changs believe in "chi", believe that "endangered-animal-bodyparts" can make their dicks bigger, that they are the "Middle Kingdom" and that "the sky" gives divine right to rule to the communist party, and that if natural disasters happen, it means "the sky" doesn’t like them anymore.
Now if you refer to ancient China, you couldn't be more wrong than that. Chinese traditional medicinal knowledge has been lost just as much of Chinese cultural heritage was lost during the Communist revolution. Mao exterminated several records in his mad obsession to get Soviet everything into the country. That madness was not restricted to just religion but also to traditional medicine.

What you see in traditional medicine today is strands of knowledge that the CCP is desperately trying to assemble together. Much of the authentic Chinese traditional medicinal system survived in non-Communist Chinese-dominated societies like Taiwan, Singapore, Malaysia, where people took the knowledge and preserved them.

I have used traditional Chinese medicine in Taiwan and it has been helpful in healing; in the medicine, I was prescribed, I did not consume a single body part of any animal but a mix of herbal teas, massage oils & physical therapy.

Chi is not nonsense; it is the same concept as Prana in Sanskrit that has a deep understanding behind it. Where do you think that they got the concept from in the ancient days? Us. Please don't watch stupid western documentaries and Kung fu movies. Much of the English-language stuff there is absolute garbage, much like how India formed due to some "invading Aryans".

It’s why Mao Zedong built the 3 gorges dam, not because it made sense, not because he needed the electricity, not to do any flood control, no, just for propaganda to show that the CCP could "stand up to nature" which pleases the hive or some retarded shit like that.
🙄 🙄 🙄

1) the Three Gorges Dam (TGD) was the brainchild of Sun Yat-sen of the Republic of China/Taiwan. It was first brought into action by Chiang Kai Shek before the communists took over. At that time, the project was envisioned based on the energy needs and long-term planning of China's nationalist government.

- Mao did squat about it except a portion of it that pushed China to the brink.

2) The actual work on the TGD started in the mid-90s, long after Mao went to live with Stalin and Lenin for good.

You are completely confusing the CCP's diplomatic idiocy with their ancient achievements or their capability to build infrastructure.

  • Ancient China was a very capable civilization, much like ours and we shared a lot with each other.
  • Commies might be crazy, but they can adapt exponentially faster and innovate over things that they 'steal'. Sometimes reinventing the wheel is not a smart idea; something our still-stuck-in-colonial-era Babus don't understand.
Let's not get jingoistic about ourselves and deny the real-life Chinese achievmeents.
 

Tshering22

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This man was Russian president ?
Why are you so surprised?

The 90s was a crazy time around the world.

This asshat was our Defence Minister:


Basically, only the traditional Western allies were having proper governments in that decade.

Countries like Russia, China, Myanmar, former USSR states were in the dumps.
 

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