Quadrilateral security dialogue (QUAD) - Resurrected!! News and Updates

asianobserve

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This is ultimately a good thing also. An independent EU will eventually succumb to being economically dependent on China. This is why China wants EU to break free of US influence. Pro China EU will be worse than Pro-US EU.

And China is trying to weaken EU by negotiating bilaterally with smaller EU countries (China's favorite and so far effective tactic).
 

RoaringTigerHiddenDragon

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Detective Pennington

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This is a good article by a former naval officer on our stupid ways of dealing with strategic situations. Enjoy.

The fundamental problem is laid out in that article. US will only sell their best stuff to "allied countries" (client states) who are only allowed to use them in conflicts that the US approves of. This is not to say that they have been perfect, Pak used American tech in 1965 and I think 1971 against India for example, but they make a serious effort to control this.
 

Covfefe

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This is a good article by a former naval officer on our stupid ways of dealing with strategic situations. Enjoy.

It talks only about defence technologies and India's alignment vis-a-vis China's rising belligerence while conveniently leaving Iran, Afghanistan and Russia out of the equation. Our policy with the US is not meek due to any hesitation from calling out the Chinese, it stays contained due to the other enemies that the US has in the region viz. Iran and Russia. After being screwed by the Pakis in Afg, the US would do well to realise that they cannot be an enemy with everyone in the region and still hope to win the war. (Northern Alliance would have done pretty good if the India-Iran-Russia axis had continued, the US itself would have done better if it took Iran or the CIS-stan route to tackle these terrorists).

Also, as far as taking a public stand as opposed to the Chinese is concerned, I don't see the US or EU leaders doing so(Biden saying we don't seek cold war and want to work on climate change with you, and Merkel and Macron chalking out business deals with Jingping). Why should India be the first volunteer while they stick to their "all dollars are green" principle? Of all the things messed up about the Indian establishment, diplomacy isn't one of them.
 

RoaringTigerHiddenDragon

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The fundamental problem is laid out in that article. US will only sell their best stuff to "allied countries" (client states) who are only allowed to use them in conflicts that the US approves of. This is not to say that they have been perfect, Pak used American tech in 1965 and I think 1971 against India for example, but they make a serious effort to control this.
Also, the recent PAF use of F16 in Op. Swift Retreat. I am more concerned about our response - will we rapidly build our MIC or sleep like always with a minimal deterrence posturing.
 

Detective Pennington

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Also, the recent PAF use of F16 in Op. Swift Retreat. I am more concerned about our response - will we rapidly build our MIC or sleep like always with a minimal deterrence posturing.
Typical Porks, say they need it for counter terrorism then do literally nothing in support of that.
 

RoaringTigerHiddenDragon

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It talks only about defence technologies and India's alignment vis-a-vis China's rising belligerence while conveniently leaving Iran, Afghanistan and Russia out of the equation. Our policy with the US is not meek due to any hesitation from calling out the Chinese, it stays contained due to the other enemies that the US has in the region viz. Iran and Russia. After being screwed by the Pakis in Afg, the US would do well to realise that they cannot be an enemy with everyone in the region and still hope to win the war. (Northern Alliance would have done pretty good if the India-Iran-Russia axis had continued, the US itself would have done better if it took Iran or the CIS-stan route to tackle these terrorists).

Also, as far as taking a public stand as opposed to the Chinese is concerned, I don't see the US or EU leaders doing so(Biden saying we don't seek cold war and want to work on climate change with you, and Merkel and Macron chalking out business deals with Jingping). Why should India be the first volunteer while they stick to their "all dollars are green" principle? Of all the things messed up about the Indian establishment, diplomacy isn't one of them.
Also, how are you saying that our diplomacy is not messed up. Here are a few examples:

- vaccine diplomacy was a total embarrassment.
- constantly asking for a UN permanent seat when you are not ready to provide security leadership to the world.
- dragging the feet on Quad initiatives, which made the Quad ineffective and now subservient to the AUKUS setup.
- very slow completion of Chahbaahar, IMT highway etc - all these are funded out of MEA budget.
- total failure in Iran - loss of major gas fields and projects with no tangible benefit from the US.
- using diplomacy to come across as apologetic after the Galwan massacre.
- constantly having to prove our vaccine’s credentials for overseas travel.
- inability to influence countries including ones like Bangladesh who have a line of credit from us to purchase our defense equipment
- losing favor amongst a lot of neighboring countries.

on the other hand, I have not seen any major diplomatic wins.

This is a big problem. The MEA is as passive as the rest of the government. Maybe everyone is keeping it low key until we become a large economy.
 

Assassin 2.0

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Quad is finished and over. New alliance is AUKUS and military domain of quad was always way over blown by American fan boy's.

These two sources also confirmed this.

Military aspect of quad was promoted by trump under heat of wuhan virus and trade war and with the end of his administration military angle of quad is also dusted.

Muricans would not like to share top end military technologies with india because the rise of military hegemony of india also threatens American influence and anyways because of our poor MIC they can always sell us over expensive garage and milk us rather than helping us for development of our industries.


 

Blank

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Those who say Quad is finished due to not being an alliance or US not giving tech transfer don't understand the point of the Quad. India itself never wanted any alliance or any tech transfer from the US. ( we will like to but that comes with it own problems. People might have forgotten about it but babus In India have long memories). Why will US give any tech transfer to India knowing full well that India will never have any alliance with it and has its own agendas. And someday can easily slide into neutrality once more. Heck, if not for US,(maybe Modi will have again gone to China to shake hands with Xi) we will really have nothing to do with China. US has options, Japan, Australia etc. who are in the Asia-Pacific, more conform to US interests and are in the area of interests (South-China sea). Put yourself in US shoes and think about it.

India will rise in its own way. We will still get tech transfer from Russia or France. Other countries can do whatever they want. But other then China, no one can stop India's path.
 

Brood Father

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QUAD can never be a military alliance , at max it can be about intelligence sharing.
NATO is nothing but America's yes sir gang who will do anything on American command, until we become like that America will never form a such crucial alliance . A part of west still sees us as Soviet allied or a good for nothing 3rd world country.

QUAD is more of a foundation step for us to get cosying up to the west but keeping our interest intact , I am glad we are not jumping the guns even after Afghan debacle and playing our cards strategically.
Indian security dimensions as it stands today has got two layers.
The land borders for which we need a neutral china and friendly Russia.
The Martime borders for which we need a friendly west.
This paradigm is a very complex and require diplomacy at highest level which fortunately we are doing.
AUKUS is a boon for us , for an initiated eyes, it shifts the china's attention to Australia. It also means that china will want to stay neutral with India given AUKUS is now a primary headache for China.
QUAD can now work on its commitments under shadows and if it is successful in first steps then it has great future. Next it can focus on trade and non military technology sharing.
 

asianobserve

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QUAD can never be a military alliance , at max it can be about intelligence sharing.
NATO is nothing but America's yes sir gang who will do anything on American command, until we become like that America will never form a such crucial alliance . A part of west still sees us as Soviet allied or a good for nothing 3rd world country.

QUAD is more of a foundation step for us to get cosying up to the west but keeping our interest intact , I am glad we are not jumping the guns even after Afghan debacle and playing our cards strategically.
Indian security dimensions as it stands today has got two layers.
The land borders for which we need a neutral china and friendly Russia.
The Martime borders for which we need a friendly west.
This paradigm is a very complex and require diplomacy at highest level which fortunately we are doing.
AUKUS is a boon for us , for an initiated eyes, it shifts the china's attention to Australia. It also means that china will want to stay neutral with India given AUKUS is now a primary headache for China.
QUAD can now work on its commitments under shadows and if it is successful in first steps then it has great future. Next it can focus on trade and non military technology sharing.

China's principal strategy is to pick off one-by-one its intended targets. It's so much easier for China to target stand-alone countries. So by insisting on going it alone (friends of everyone and thus friend of no one) India is making China's job (either against India or other smaller Asian countries) so much easier.

You have to take note that China is an ascendant authoritarian state not unlike the 20th century ascendant authoritarian countries in Europe. Every time China is appeased or it gets what it wants, it only becomes bolder next time.
 

asianobserve

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Why France Is Getting No Sympathy for Its Lost Sub Deal

France is fuming over AUKUS—the new tripartite security arrangement that scuttled its contract to build submarines for Australia—but is receiving scarcely any expressions of sympathy from fellow EU member states. That may be because France itself uses some distinctly tough tactics to secure arms exports, and sells to customers others deem unsavory. Yes, Paris considers arms exports essential to its sovereignty, but its friends too are interested in sovereignty, not to mention fair play.

One day after Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi was killed at the Saudi consulate in Istanbul in October 2018, President Emmanuel Macron of France and his top ministers received a classified intelligence briefing documenting how Saudi Arabia was using French weapons in Yemen. Six months later, with Germany and other European countries having stopped selling arms to the Saudis, Macron dismissed as “populist” calls for France to do the same.

“What’s the link between arms sales and Mr. Khashoggi’s murder? I understand the connection with what’s happening in Yemen, but there is no link with Mr. Khashoggi,” the president said. “That’s pure demagoguery to say, ‘We must stop arms sales.’ It’s got nothing to do with Mr. Khashoggi.”

More than 130,000 Yemenis have already been killed in that country’s ongoing civil war, and more than 16 million don’t have enough to eat. But ordinary Yemenis’ suffering at the hands of the Saudi coalition and the Houthi fighters hasn’t ended French arms exports to Saudi Arabia. In 2018, French arms exports grew by 50 percent; they included a one-billion Euro sale to Saudi Arabia of patrol boats and other equipment. As Reuters noted, one of the tactics used by Yemen’s Saudi-led coalition is to block ports controlled by the rival Houthis.

And last year, when French arms exports slumped dramatically, sales to Saudi Arabia helped keep the French defense industry afloat. The Gulf kingdom bought 704 million Euros’ worth of French arms, more than any other country. And despite last year’s slump, French arms sales rose 44 percent from 2016 and 2020, outperforming all the other top-five arms exporters.

Most countries with significant defense industries rely on exports to keep them going. But France goes about securing exports in an extremely energetic manner that involves not just defense industry executives but politicians all the way up to the President of the Republic. Indeed, even for French arms-makers that are not owned or part-owned by the government, French politicians act as salesmen to other countries and don’t mind outflanking other countries’ companies in the process. To be sure, U.S. and many other countries’ ministers and officials, too, ply their countries’ deadly wares to other leaders. Few, though, do so as energetically as France.

And France, which considers itself a global actor, clearly feels that status justifies unfriendly negotiation tactics at the expense of allied countries. “Arms exports are the business model of our sovereignty,” Defense Minister Florence Parly noted in 2018.

The saga of Switzerland’s planned fighter jet purchase is illustrative. In 2012, the country decided to replace its aging fighter-jet fleet with Saab Gripens. The Swedish aircraft, deemed not to be the highest performer but good value for money, defeated Dassault Rafale—which had struggled to find foreign buyers—and Eurofighter Typhoon. But at the 11th hour, a confidential report sowing doubts regarding the Gripen’s capabilities surfaced and created a media circus. (Oddly, the circulated report was in English, not one of Switzerland’s official languages.) In a subsequent referendum, 52 percent of voters rejected the deal. This year, Switzerland finally reached a new decision—in favor of the F-35.

Then-President François Hollande was a bit more open about the government’s assistance to arms manufacturers than other French politicians have been. At the 2013 Paris Air Show, as Hollande helped Dassault Aviation’s elderly CEO Serge Dassault ascend the steps to an exhibition stand, he quipped that “it’s the state that’s supporting Dassault…as usual”.

The arrangement leaves countries whose politicians don’t use strong-arm tactics to sell arms at a distinct disadvantage. And it doesn’t endear France to its fellow EU member states. Indeed, when it comes to defense equipment, France is distinctly unpopular among EU member states for another reason as well: it is known to systematically use an escape clause in the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union to give government contracts to French firms. The escape clause, Article 346, allows EU governments to procure from domestic companies rather than putting the contracts to EU-wide tender—but only in cases of essential security interest. It is, however, up to member states themselves to determine what they consider an essential security interest.

France is among the countries that interpret that interest rather liberally. As the European Parliament’s research service noted in a report in October last year, “despite repeated guidance from the European Commission and CJEU17 that Article 346 TFEU should be used only for specific reasons and on a case-by-case basis, in practice many Member States have continued to interpret the provision ‘as a categorical or automatic exclusion of armaments from the application of EU law’.” In other words, these member states use the clause to systematically buy from their defense industries at the expense of other European firms. In 2019, a European Parliament commission issued a report that called on “Member States [to] strictly respect the conditions of applications of exemptions and, in particular, to strictly limit the potentially abusive use of Article 346”. But the abuse continues—and the governments that dutifully put procurement contracts to EU-wide tender lose out.

All this explains why France’s furious reaction to AUKUS has received little sympathy from its allies. Nobody likes to see a friend hurt – but if that friend has a habit of advancing its interest at others’ expense, there’s no love lost. If France wants to shore up support against the United States, the UK, and Australia, it may have to rethink how it treats its friends, including in the key area of defense exports.

 

Covfefe

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Yes, Paris considers arms exports essential to its sovereignty, but its friends too are interested in sovereignty, not to mention fair play.

One day after Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi was killed at the Saudi consulate in Istanbul in October 2018, President Emmanuel Macron of France and his top ministers received a classified intelligence briefing documenting how Saudi Arabia was using French weapons in Yemen. Six months later, with Germany and other European countries having stopped selling arms to the Saudis, Macron dismissed as “populist” calls for France to do the same.
Lol, as if the United Snakes are any holier. They have sold weapons to the Islamofascists throughout the world- Pakistan, Saudi, and recently Taliban.

And as far as the bleeding hearts for Yemen and Khashoggi are concerned, here are a few stats to satiate your thirst for questioning French morality while standing on an American plank.


Barack Obama could have stopped the war at its start in 2015 by cutting off military, diplomatic, and intelligence support for the Saudi-led coalition that imposed a blockade on Yemen and began deadly air strikes on civilian targets
In the five years before the war, U.S. arms transfers to Saudi Arabia amounted to $3 billion; between 2015 and 2020, the U.S. agreed to sell over $64.1 billion worth of weapons to Riyadh, averaging $10.7 billion per year. Sales to other belligerents in the war, like the United Arab Emirates (UAE), also rose exponentially.
Khashoggi was murdered in Oct 2018, for reference.

See, people these days see through the BS the US spreads through its tentacles of media, talk shows, think tanks, and movies. French may be selling the arms to murderers but so is the US, the MIC in the US sees the French industry as a threat and wants it neutered so that they can scoop into French share. Castrated Germany, constitutionally mandated Japan, insecure UK, and li'l bitch Australia- only a docile France is the missing piece in the absolute military dominance of the US in the Western world. This whole AUKUS opera was majorly a weapon sales program to Australia- Subs and Cruise Missiles (by the way Aussies too have a "human rights" record in Timor Leste- https://thediplomat.com/2018/03/how-australia-ignored-east-timors-suffering/ )
For intelligence sharing, they already had Five eyes and for maritime cooperation, there was already a QUAD.

In the nutshell, you wanna sell weapons- go ahead and do it. Just don't take a fucking high moral ground about it,
 

nWo 4 Life

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Lol, as if the United Snakes are any holier. They have sold weapons to the Islamofascists throughout the world- Pakistan, Saudi, and recently Taliban.

And as far as the bleeding hearts for Yemen and Khashoggi are concerned, here are a few stats to satiate your thirst for questioning French morality while standing on an American plank.





Khashoggi was murdered in Oct 2018, for reference.

See, people these days see through the BS the US spreads through its tentacles of media, talk shows, think tanks, and movies. French may be selling the arms to murderers but so is the US, the MIC in the US sees the French industry as a threat and wants it neutered so that they can scoop into French share. Castrated Germany, constitutionally mandated Japan, insecure UK, and li'l bitch Australia- only a docile France is the missing piece in the absolute military dominance of the US in the Western world. This whole AUKUS opera was majorly a weapon sales program to Australia- Subs and Cruise Missiles (by the way Aussies too have a "human rights" record in Timor Leste- https://thediplomat.com/2018/03/how-australia-ignored-east-timors-suffering/ )
For intelligence sharing, they already had Five eyes and for maritime cooperation, there was already a QUAD.

In the nutshell, you wanna sell weapons- go ahead and do it. Just don't take a fucking high moral ground about it,
Exactly, the US should be the last one to lecture about the situation in Yemen.

The most significant failing of Biden’s Yemen policy concerns the coalition blockade, which is the most devastating ongoing offensive operation against Yemen. As long as the blockade remains in place, it proves that the president has not kept his promise to halt US backing for the war.

The Biden administration has not pressed the Saudi coalition to end its killing blockade of the country. The blockade continues to strangle the people of Yemen by preventing or delaying the delivery of essential goods, including and especially fuel. Fuel shortages drive up the price for transporting goods, and that in turn has driven up the price of those goods so that they are prohibitively expensive in a country suffering from mass unemployment and inflation driven by the coalition’s economic warfare.

That economic warfare rarely makes the headlines, but it is deadly to the civilian population all the same. Aid groups and activists have implored the US government not to make the lifting of the blockade contingent on a cease-fire or larger political settlement, since the blockade is daily starving and killing Yemeni civilians right now and their lives should not be used as leverage.

The State Department just announced the approval of a $500 million maintenance contract for Saudi Arabia that would provide for the upkeep of the kingdom’s helicopter fleet. This is the first major military contract with Saudi Arabia since Biden became president, and it flies in the face of the promised cutoff of support.

If the US is serious about ending blockade of Yemen, and to not provide "offensive weapons" to Saudi Arabia, it certainly is not using its leverage when its plans a half $billion agreement to continue service of Saudi helicopters.

The maintenance contract highlights the essential role that the US has in keeping the Saudi military running. If the United States of America and the United Kingdom, tonight, told King Salman, ‘This war has to end,’ it would end tomorrow. Because the Royal Saudi Air Force cannot operate without American & British support. Far from forcing the Saudi government to halt their war, the Biden administration is making a new contract with them.

Yemen’s humanitarian crisis remains the worst in the world, and there are already famine-like conditions in many parts of the country. U.N. officials have been warning of a broader, deeper famine that threatens millions of innocent lives. Mass starvation in Yemen is the result of deliberate policy choices by all belligerents, and because of its influence with the Saudi coalition the US is uniquely responsible for the worst of Yemen’s humanitarian crisis.

The war on Yemen is the ugliest and most destructive part of Obama’s legacy. The US government has played a major role in causing the starvation and wreckage of their country. It is incumbent on their government to do as much as it can to correct the injustices caused by its backing for the war, and that starts by ending its support for every part of the Saudi coalition’s war on Yemen.
 

Brood Father

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Lol, as if the United Snakes are any holier. They have sold weapons to the Islamofascists throughout the world- Pakistan, Saudi, and recently Taliban.

And as far as the bleeding hearts for Yemen and Khashoggi are concerned, here are a few stats to satiate your thirst for questioning French morality while standing on an American plank.





Khashoggi was murdered in Oct 2018, for reference.

See, people these days see through the BS the US spreads through its tentacles of media, talk shows, think tanks, and movies. French may be selling the arms to murderers but so is the US, the MIC in the US sees the French industry as a threat and wants it neutered so that they can scoop into French share. Castrated Germany, constitutionally mandated Japan, insecure UK, and li'l bitch Australia- only a docile France is the missing piece in the absolute military dominance of the US in the Western world. This whole AUKUS opera was majorly a weapon sales program to Australia- Subs and Cruise Missiles (by the way Aussies too have a "human rights" record in Timor Leste- https://thediplomat.com/2018/03/how-australia-ignored-east-timors-suffering/ )
For intelligence sharing, they already had Five eyes and for maritime cooperation, there was already a QUAD.

In the nutshell, you wanna sell weapons- go ahead and do it. Just don't take a fucking high moral ground about it,
Yes ..United snakes were the one to arm Mujhahiddin and when they turned hostile they attacked Afghanistan.
The only competition to US in terms of MIC (in Western world) is France . France have shown how to develop strategic autonomy and that is a thorn in eyes of US. Also Macron politics is more outspoken about France stand on Islamic terrorism which contradicts the policy of US appeasement of Islamists hence you will now see these stupid articles
For India this is an opportunity , France MIC can be an asset to us and today France is a india's strongest ally (even better than Russians)
India should see this an opportunity and try to leverage this situation.
 

nWo 4 Life

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Yes ..United snakes were the one to arm Mujhahiddin and when they turned hostile they attacked Afghanistan.
And not just the Mujahedeen, but Porkistan by proxy, because the porkies kept a lot of the weapons that they were meant to smuggle to the Taliban for themselves. And the US provided them training and showed them how to use those weapons too.
 

Brood Father

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China's principal strategy is to pick off one-by-one its intended targets. It's so much easier for China to target stand-alone countries. So by insisting on going it alone (friends of everyone and thus friend of no one) India is making China's job (either against India or other smaller Asian countries) so much easier.

You have to take note that China is an ascendant authoritarian state not unlike the 20th century ascendant authoritarian countries in Europe. Every time China is appeased or it gets what it wants, it only becomes bolder next time.
Nowhere I said china should be appeased. All I said that India today cannot afford direct hostility with china , All India needs is neutral china for at least 10-15 years.
India should work strengthening itself with QUAD and other alliances to secure Indo Pacific .
Let AUKUS and china deal with each other while we can focus on our economy development and assisting AUKUS wherever necessary
Our focus should be on china but we should work under the wraps, no need to go full berserk
 

asianobserve

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Nowhere I said china should be appeased. All I said that India today cannot afford direct hostility with china , All India needs is neutral china for at least 10-15 years.
India should work strengthening itself with QUAD and other alliances to secure Indo Pacific .
Let AUKUS and china deal with each other while we can focus on our economy development and assisting AUKUS wherever necessary
Our focus should be on china but we should work under the wraps, no need to go full berserk

I cannot understand this impotence mentality from an otherwise proud people with thousands of years of civilization behind them, with China even copying their religion. Why should India be sensitive about China's reaction when clearly China does not care a bit about India's sensitivities? :creepy:
 

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