QUAD; The Concert of Democracies for Trade, Security & Diplomacy

Tactical Doge

𝕱𝖔𝖔𝖑𝖘 𝖗𝖚𝖘𝖍 𝖆𝖓𝖉 𝖆𝖓𝖌𝖊𝖑𝖘 𝖋𝖊𝖆𝖗
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For anyone thinking china is gonna invade Taiwan or terror bomb them to submission have to look at these facts
1.Taiwan has an military up to 160000 troops and upto 1.6 million reservists in any case of war Taiwan can easily add upto half a million troops to their nations defence.
2.its an island of up to 35,808 km sq.imagine the entire indian and pakistan military fighting in an island the size of kerala instead of entire LOC during war period.concentration of troops and armor per area and as an island both sides cannot withdraw much is gonna be apocalyptic.
3.china would have to conduct an operation much larger than D day to even establish a beach head.the allies had full air,naval superiority and axis powers only had 6 lakh troops in full of france and it was even fewer in the beach heads and was still could nt link the beaches or reach their objectives and were almost thrown back to the sea. Taiwan has even fewer beaches that can be used for amphibious assault so Taiwan will basically turn them into kill houses.
4.Taiwan has a population of upto 2.6 crore in a small area.just think how the PLA is gonna fight the taiwanese forces and manage of a local insurgency and control a large hostile population ?
5.china would have to atleast poor up to a 1 million troops to the island to successfully capture it
6.any chinese attempt to even assemble a force would be seen by the taiwanese right away so china will not even get a surprise like the allies did in DDay.
7.china will at all means conquer Taiwan but the casualties would be astronomical for both sides.
China is gonna get sucked dry and battle of verdun will look like a picnic to these battles.
Opportunistic wolves everywhere
Any attempt at Taiwan "re-integration" by CCP will attract major forces
Do you think IA would sit idle when major chinki resources are redirected to Pacific, Would Pakis sit idle when Major indian sources are allocated to Himalayas

It would be a global clusterfuck if China attempts a re-integration of any sort
 

Marliii

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Opportunistic wolves everywhere
Any attempt at Taiwan "re-integration" by CCP will attract major forces
Do you think IA would sit idle when major chinki resources are redirected to Pacific, Would Pakis sit idle when Major indian sources are allocated to Himalayas

It would be a global clusterfuck if China attempts a re-integration of any sort
I didnt included that part for simplicity.our wumao front @lixun would be bitching its all china Taiwan no one will interfere.but in reality .....
 

HitmanBlood

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For anyone thinking china is gonna invade Taiwan or terror bomb them to submission have to look at these facts
1.Taiwan has an military up to 160000 troops and upto 1.6 million reservists in any case of war Taiwan can easily add upto half a million troops to their nations defence.
2.its an island of up to 35,808 km sq.imagine the entire indian and pakistan military fighting in an island the size of kerala instead of entire LOC during war period.concentration of troops and armor per area and as an island both sides cannot withdraw much is gonna be apocalyptic.
3.china would have to conduct an operation much larger than D day to even establish a beach head.the allies had full air,naval superiority and axis powers only had 6 lakh troops in full of france and it was even fewer in the beach heads and was still could nt link the beaches or reach their objectives and were almost thrown back to the sea. Taiwan has even fewer beaches that can be used for amphibious assault so Taiwan will basically turn them into kill houses.
4.Taiwan has a population of upto 2.6 crore in a small area.just think how the PLA is gonna fight the taiwanese forces and manage of a local insurgency and control a large hostile population ?
5.china would have to atleast poor up to a 1 million troops to the island to successfully capture it
6.any chinese attempt to even assemble a force would be seen by the taiwanese right away so china will not even get a surprise like the allies did in DDay.
7.china will at all means conquer Taiwan but the casualties would be astronomical for both sides.
China is gonna get sucked dry and battle of verdun will look like a picnic to these battles.
Intresting analysis on warfighting.

My point of view regarding China Taiwan war is similar to North Vietnamese takeover or recent Taliban takeover.

Taiwan is a first world country with almost no appetite for a full scale conflict. Their citizens aren't redicalized to a point that they will fight until last man. Taiwanese leadership maybe speaking with strong words now, but it isn't type of gov that will fight until last inch.

My scenario of China Taiwan war is a relatively small conflict. China using its naval assets to blockade Taiwan from outside. Using its air force to target some critical installation of Taiwan. America, India or others will not intervene as per my thinking.


This scenario could be enough for Taiwanese to make a deal with Chinese. As per this deal they will join China but will keep some of their institutions like they do in Hongkong. Taiwanese gov and elites will be spared with their life. Some protests will take place by citizens but CCP will crush it.
 

Optimistic Nihilist

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Are you so naive to think that US will sacrifice 50% of its trade for some tiny island that was also manned by Chinese? It is just a political tool.

Please avoid using the word Chink - it is not something I'd appreciate as it is used by some morons for my people as well despite we being Indians. I never faced it really, but many of my friends have. Don't want to bring back unpleasant memories.

Mark my words; the US won't do shit about Taiwan takeover except issue warnings and a few ceremonial sanctions against some CCP members - that's it.
You are not understanding. I will explain in more details. You might find it boring, but it will give you a picture of who stands to lose what if trade is cut off over Taiwan.

50% of CHINA's trade is with the USA, NOT the other way around.

You ask, "Will US sacrifice 50% of its trade for some tiny island?", first off, like I said 50% of USA'S trade is not with China. And secondly I ask you, "Will China sacrifice 50% of its trade for some tiny island?"

Exports to the US are a larger percentage of China’s economy at $550 billion annually than the meager $197 Billion the $22 Trillion US economy exports to China. People act like companies aren’t already moving from China to East Asian countries because China is already becoming too expensive to manufacture in.

If the US cuts off trade with China, China will suddenly lose a huge portion of their export market. A lot of factories would probably need to shut down, and there probably would be substantial unemployment. Also because the US won’t buy, other countries who buy from China (which is a lot of countries) could demand lower prices, and wages in Chinese factories would probably decrease.

There will be a decline in growth in the USA too, but the USA CAN absorb this decline unlike China. Just consider where both countries are starting from in terms of per capita GDP.

America, as an advanced economy, is largely decoupled from imports and exports. There is a general assumption that advanced ‘strong’ economies are naturally ‘doing strong business’ in export/import. The US is far outside of the top 100 countries in terms of imports, with something around 14 percent of its GDP being driven by imports. As a percent of GDP, exports only make up 11–12% of GDP.

China is the country of origin for only 22% of US imports (so ~22% of a piece of pie thats only 14% of US GDP). Interestingly, China is heavily driven by exports, with approximately 19-20% of its GDP being Export driven - and 17–18% of its GDP being Import driven. If you’re noticing that between 38% and 40% of Chinas GDP is wholly dependent on trade, you would be right. And the US accounts for 20% of all exports from China, and around 8% of the total imports into China.

With a 14.7 trillion GDP, just working out the percentages (with some fudging around years, as China is not great at releasing numbers), this means that China has about 3 trillion on the line in GDP in exports total , and 600 bln on the line in exports to the US, or about 4.25 percent of GDP. If America couldn’t export to China, I think about 2% of its GDP would be on the line.

If the US either allows or executes a blockade of China-bound trade through the Malacca Strait, then China will have 80% of its energy ‘at risk’. After the alienation of Australia and the embargo of Australian coal, China is already seeing massive energy disruptions, and Russia simply does not produce enough surplus energy, nor do trade routes and pipelines exist, to replace middle eastern energy and Australian coal. And China can’t either, not unless they open up oceans of shale gas and new coal sources (recall, most capacity in China is from coal burning, and you can’t just ‘switch’)

And while China may be able to contest the strait of Taiwan and parts of the south china sea, I find it very, very doubtful they could contest the US in the Strait of Malacca - by the numbers they can not project enough force to open that waterway. Then add to the fact that the price of container shipping would skyrocket if China militarized either the South China Sea conflict or the Taiwan conflict, thus driving a stake through 40% of Chinese GDP.

The US would not lose much if China and the US ceased trading all together, maybe a short recession, or 1–2 ‘points’ off annual growth. In China, it would be a disaster.

Almost all of China's economy is reliant on trade with other countries. If they start a conflict with Taiwan and in the most extreme scenario, were globally embargoed, China is back to "Great Leap Forward" levels of fucked. The recent rapid growth is build on lax lending laws similar to pre-1991 Japan (after which their economy crashed).

USA has a much stronger basis for their economy thanks to a big head start on China and the largest tract of arable land on earth.

As to your point about USA won't help Taiwan, why exactly do you think that? What exactly makes you so confident in the belief that the USA would simply abandon Taiwan and not try to milk a war for all it's worth? Have you forgotten the influence of the War Party in DC?

In any case, I will give you recent statements which might indicate US policy to Taiwan. Even before Biden took the oath of office, he invited Taiwan’s de facto ambassador to the United States to attend his inauguration. It was the first time that honor had been given since the United States switched diplomatic relations to the PRC.

Not even Trump or George W. Bush, both staunch supporters of Taiwan, did something so bold that it bordered on outright disdain for Beijing’s insistence that there is only one China and that Taiwan is part of that country.

A more recent comment by Biden has heightened Beijing’s suspicions. When ABC News reporter George Stephanopoulos asked him about possible damage to US credibility after the chaotic withdrawal from Afghanistan, Biden dismissed that danger, stating that Washington’s reliability with respect to the security of allies should not be doubted. "We made a sacred commitment to Article Five that if in fact anyone were to invade or take action against our NATO allies, we would respond," he emphasized. Biden then added: "Same with Japan, same with South Korea, SAME WITH TAIWAN."

Which is why you have seen another arms sale to Taipei, and the increased pace of US warships transiting the Taiwan Strait. There is no way the US would simply let China take over Taiwan and do nothing after investing in them so much.
 

Optimistic Nihilist

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As I have mentioned in my previous posts, Taiwan is Kashmir of China. If Xi captures Taiwan, it would elevate his status within CCP to near Mao level. In China CCP will be even more powerful domestically. As Chinese economy is cooling off such jingoist move will stroke nationalism sentiments in China. Also Taiwan has treasure trove of technology which will cement China as a near monopoly in certain technology field.

Also after fall of Taiwan, other Asian countries will try to appease Chinese. They will become a defacto Super power in Asia. I can even see Indian babus start to negotiate safety with post Taiwan, China.

USA's role from now on is always going to be defensive in context of China. USA is a declining power. They have major economic problems at home. They have almost lost all of their manufacturing capabilities to China. USA's fortune 500 companies rely heavily on Chinese market. Even Hollywood movies are now dependent on Chinese market.

A US China war will devastate already declining American economy. This will create further internal problems within USA. This will destroy the current two party system in America. This system is bread and butter of American deep state and corrupt businessmen.

Therefore I can imagine a scenario where USA deep state and China comes into an agreement.

China opens their market a little more to certain US companies. China sides with US on middle eastern issues and even throws Russia under the bus. In return for this favours US allows them to take over Taiwan without any resistance.

I can imagine a Taliban or North Vietnamese type situation. China invading Taiwan and US crying publicly but on ground they turn a blind eye. Joe Biden gives a strongly worded statement and 1 year later business is back as usual.

To be a superpower you have to not only have capabilities but also have to demonstrate intent. For China Taiwan is perfect oppertunity to demonstrate their intent. For USA this is another oppertunity to save face and continue the facade of Superpower.
If China tries to invade Taiwan, that will be a red flag to all Asian countries. Everyone will start militarizing and form alliances against China, if not outright interfere in the conflict. Hell even Japan with all its "MUHHH IMPERIAL MILITARISM BAD" will start rearming if that happens.

Also refer to the post I made above. China is in worse economic woes than USA. It's just that being a Communist country, they hide information and people fall prey to their propaganda and think everything is fine and dandy.

Just look at this, for crying out loud.

1634022670753.png


China is projected to have 400 million less people by the end of the century. Their growth will be incredibly hard to sustain. Imagine the US losing 28% of its population from 1925–2000. That is what China is facing.

China will never start an actual war unless they have a brilliant plan that would knock out both Taiwan and USA out of the conflict. Keep in mind that all the problems in CCP: low birth rates, energy crisis and corruption would be uncontrollable in an all out war with US and would fuck china so hard that it would return to the state like it was in 50s.

If Xi is retarded he will do it. But he's much smarter than that. So he'll do something else. He doesn't even have to start a war with Taiwan to make them a part of China. You heard that right. How?

Because the KMT (Kuomintang) has already sold out to the CCP. High officials of the party are also advisors to the CCP (example: Hsu Cheng-wen).
The KMT tried to pass the CSSTA in 2013, a treaty that would basically mean reunification with Red China in everything but name, and as a result ended up getting destroyed in the couple last general elections.

That's because the Taiwanese people understand that they're traitors, but here's the catch: the only alternative is the DPP (Minjindang), which is a leftist party. The Sunflower Student Movement, which is basically the Taiwanese equivalent of Antifa, is behind the DPP.

So the DPP won the elections and has been ruling Taiwan since 2016, but they're marxists. If they rule for too long, their left-wing policies will eventually make the island indistinguishable from continental China. Conversely, if the KMT is elected back into power, they'll finish what they started previously and simply hand the country directly over to the Chinese Communist party in a silver platter.

Xi Jinping knows this, which is why he doesn't invade Taiwan. He doesn't have to and he knows it, because it's a matter of time until they win by default due to Taiwan's current political situation. He expects America to be reactive to Chinese moves, and if he starts a war, then USA will intervene, so he knows the most effective way to take Taiwan is to wait, because USA won't be proactive (especially with Beijing Biden in power).

1634023201847.png
 

Okabe Rintarou

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@Tshering22 Your entire scenario relies on the assumption that PRC is capable of conducting a decapitating missile strike on Taiwan's entire leadership: civilian and military. Taiwan has been hardening its entire island in preperation of such a scenario. They have extensive bunker and tunnel networks and a radar network that can warn them of incoming PRC missiles. And if PRC fails to kill ALL leadership in first strike, then it turns into a clusterfcuk as pointed out by @Marliii
 

Optimistic Nihilist

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Intresting analysis on warfighting.

My point of view regarding China Taiwan war is similar to North Vietnamese takeover or recent Taliban takeover.

Taiwan is a first world country with almost no appetite for a full scale conflict. Their citizens aren't redicalized to a point that they will fight until last man. Taiwanese leadership maybe speaking with strong words now, but it isn't type of gov that will fight until last inch.

My scenario of China Taiwan war is a relatively small conflict. China using its naval assets to blockade Taiwan from outside. Using its air force to target some critical installation of Taiwan. America, India or others will not intervene as per my thinking.


This scenario could be enough for Taiwanese to make a deal with Chinese. As per this deal they will join China but will keep some of their institutions like they do in Hongkong. Taiwanese gov and elites will be spared with their life. Some protests will take place by citizens but CCP will crush it.
They can't blockade the east of Taiwan because that would be Japanese waters and would cause Japan and America to go to war or at the very least Japan who alone due to their bases and missiles and the fact that their Navy is on par with China's currently would mean China loses.

Plus, I am pretty sure that we, that is India and other Asian countries would get pretty jittery if China tries to occupy Taiwan. If not interfere, we would definitely start strengthening our positions and militarizing. If Japan starts rearming, then John Chinaman is fucked. And I'm pretty sure that America will interfere too, Japan definitely.

Plus, what real, full-blown(who will actually support them in waging war) allies does China have anyway except Pakistan? Even Pakistan will only get involved if India gets involved.
 

ezsasa

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Take two things into account

- current rhetoric within Taiwan against china is partisan, the original political party which created Taiwan is now pro-china and are sitting in opposition. If they come to power, this whole anti-china rhetoric might just fade away.

-Xi is currently running a campaign of de-risking their own economy from American leverage. Him going after jack ma is an indication towards that direction. if successful, probability of xi or his successor going after Taiwan increases.
 

lixun

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I didnt included that part for simplicity.our wumao front @lixun would be bitching its all china Taiwan no one will interfere.but in reality .....
It’s really boring. QUAD only exists in fantasy. As for the Taiwan issue, this is China’s internal affairs. You don’t understand.
 

Optimistic Nihilist

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- current rhetoric within Taiwan against china is partisan, the original political party which created Taiwan is now pro-china and are sitting in opposition. If they come to power, this whole anti-china rhetoric might just fade away.
Precisely. The Kuomintang basically tried to reunite with China and consequently got destroyed in last couple general elections.

The only other alternative, the DPP are Marxists themselves. China doesn't need to retake Taiwan by force, Taiwan will offer itself up on a platter in some time.
 

Jimih

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US under Biden may or may not be able to defend Taiwan

Under the War Powers and Taiwan Relations acts, the US president has no legal authority, without the express authorization of Congress, to use military force to defend Taiwan.

 

lixun

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The biggest problem with QUAD is the U.S. military presence. All countries that are allied with the U.S. have U.S. troops. India is willing to send a division to station in New Delhi, and whether it is willing to obey the U.S. economically and diplomatically.
The United States is afraid of China's hegemony in East Asia and the Western Pacific. Isn't it afraid of India's hegemony in the Indian Ocean and Central Asia? Because India is a democratic country?
Finish
 

Marliii

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It’s really boring. QUAD only exists in fantasy. As for the Taiwan issue, this is China’s internal affairs. You don’t understand.
It only needs to exist in the minds of chinese leaders to scare them and thats what its been doing.
 

lixun

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It only needs to exist in the minds of chinese leaders to scare them and thats what its been doing.
The Chinese leader is not so stupid, even I can see that it is a fake thing
 

Marliii

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The Chinese leader is not so stupid, even I can see that it is a fake thing
Then why haven't you tried invading Taiwan? The fear of US involvement and you guys weren't capable of it till 2010.quad was almost dead in 2010s but now they have at least a common footing.what ally does china have? North korea,pakistan or any failed countries?
 

lixun

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Then why haven't you tried invading Taiwan? The fear of US involvement and you guys weren't capable of it till 2010.quad was almost dead in 2010s but now they have at least a common footing.what ally does china have? North korea,pakistan or any failed countries?
I don’t want to answer the Taiwan question, end, I have other things
 

ezsasa

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US under Biden may or may not be able to defend Taiwan

Under the War Powers and Taiwan Relations acts, the US president has no legal authority, without the express authorization of Congress, to use military force to defend Taiwan.

unlike Afghanistan, taiwan is a test case for “defending democracy against expansionist powers”. Theoretically if something happens to Taiwan, US’s core leverage with rest of the world collapses I.e democracy, and with it their numero uno status accorded by rest of the world. it’s not the case that US has nothing to loose.

for all practical purposes, we are back in Cold War domino theory era.

As things stand today, taiwan enjoys bipartisan support in US Congress. this is another of trump’s policies continuing under Biden.

Flip side of the argument is that, Murican Marxists might just cut a deal with Chinese communists in return for some concessions. the world officially becomes G2. This is where it was heading before trump came and spoiled their plans, hence the hatred against trump.
 

Marliii

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I don’t want to answer the Taiwan question, end, I have other things
Oh its your "internal issue" right? Taiwan the country that didnt fall for communist mao. like you construct a bloody economic corridor through kashmir which is ours then lecture on "internal issue'
 

Optimistic Nihilist

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Then why haven't you tried invading Taiwan? The fear of US involvement and you guys weren't capable of it till 2010.quad was almost dead in 2010s but now they have at least a common footing.what ally does china have? North korea,pakistan or any failed countries?
What they won't admit is that they are fucked without trade with the US. The US controls the seas and they have no other alternative. They cannot therefore invade Taiwan.

You also raised a good point about the allies. North Korea is friendly with China but won't go to war for them unless it involves South Korea, and even then, they're about to hit another famine.

Bhikaristan, as the name suggests, is not that well off either and will anyway get involved only if India gets involved.
 

asianobserve

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China’s Submarine Fleet Is Huge. The U.S. Navy Plans To Whittle Away At It With Mines.
The Chinese navy has a lot of submarines. Preventing these subs from breaking out into the vast expanse of the Philippine Sea is a key aim of U.S. and allied plans for a possible war with China.
After all, the Philippine Sea is where the U.S. Navy is likely to station its aircraft carriers as a complement to the U.S. Air Force’s own network of small airfields in the region.
The Japanese navy’s entire wartime strategy revolves around holding up its end of this blockade—the northern end, stretching from Taiwan north to Japan’s home islands.
Barring the surprise involvement of some other ally, the U.S. Navy probably would have to cover the southern end of the blockade. To that end, the American fleet is combining an old concept with a new one ... and hoping they work together.
Mines. And robot submarines.
 

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