Q&A Israeli Society

pack leader

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First of all welcome to Indian Defence Forum (DFI) and I hope you enjoy your stay here.

Since in your opening post you started to talk about your country and other information about it I would respond to it as well. I'm happy that India and Israel are good trading partners and hope that it remains so in future, infact hoping that our trading ties will improve with time.

Now coming off to other parts here is what I think about Israeli government and policies. I believe Israel has right to exist in the boundaries created by UN during partition of then Palestine which was governed by British mandate or to the 1967 borders (which does not include the illegal settlements Israel has forcefully stolen from Palestinians i.e, parts of West Bank etc). I believe Israeli government policies are oppressive and bordering almost apartheid in relation to West Bank and Gaza (illegal blockade and settlements). I also want to state that Israeli government should also provide equal rights to Israeli Arab citizens if it wants to treated as the "only democracy in Middle East" as Israeli politicians likes to cite that term more often.

I saw that you have lashed out at other members in this thread earlier of different opinions "All Arabs ..same mentality" thingy etc etc..so I hope it will bring peace to your heart knowing that this post is not made by a Arab/ Muslim but by a Indian (born Hindu now agnostic who believes in all Gods). Hope to debate you more around these forums on many more issues.
i wish things were so simple both in 1948 and in 1967 we were on the defensive side ( few against many )
we won by the skill and sacrifice of our people why do you deny the right of the victor (considering he is the victim of attack )
to exact penalty on the vanquished ( considering the fact that they are the aggressors)
case in point: the seizure and expulsion of Germans from some east germen provinces by poles and Russians after the defeat of the Nazis
despite all this, the death of our women, children, the elderly (Islamic terror knows no limit ).
we tried three times (1995 , 2000 , 2008 ) to reach an agreement (we failed) .
they kept the nothing or everything mentality so we decided to create a border between Israel and Palestine unilaterally
according to our security needs
now we have all the tools for a battle off attrition
the facts:
1)Jewish birth rates and positive immigration are stable
2) Palestinian birth rates are plummeting and negative immigration is stable
3)terror is kept under control of our powerful army and secret services
4) the political power of oil is running low every year

we are not afraid we will win
 

Godless-Kafir

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^^ You alone could give a bad name to your country just with your grammar, first of start a sentence with a capital letter and second, if your not that bothered to post in capitals then dont use bold, bold is for highlighting important stuff and none of what you said is important.

Also its ok to be proud for your country but to come out each time with so much chest thumping does not make your side good nor does it show Israelis have something special that others dont.
 

pack leader

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Israel is a free society we are free to disagree
and so can you
BTW rudeness is not welcome
 

Godless-Kafir

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Israel is a free society we are free to disagree
and so can you
BTW rudeness is not welcome
You changed your post to make it sound more chest thumping. Anyway your not in an Israeli forum so how does what you say related to the issue of posting here!

Nationality is just glorified tribalism, its some what narrow if someone keeps thumping his own side. There are no sides we just keep inventing them and if someone gets caught to much into that it not good for anyone.
 

Anonymous

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i wish things were so simple both in 1948 and in 1967 we were on the defensive side ( few against many ) we won by the skill and sacrifice of our people why do you deny the right of the victor (considering he is the victim of attack ) to exact penalty on the vanquished ( considering the fact that they are the aggressors)case in point: the seizure and expulsion of Germans from some east germen provinces by poles and Russians after the defeat of the Nazis
You got me confused there for a minute by the whole attacker and defensive thing. If I remember it correctly wasn't it Israel which first bombed/ attacked Egypt air bases in 1967 - 6 days war and that would make Israel the agreessor/ attacker not a victim of attack. Going by your given example the agressor and attacker should return back the land.

despite all this, the death of our women, children, the elderly (Islamic terror knows no limit ).
Now let's not be too judgemental since there is also Irgun and Stern gang which forcefully killed and removed many Palestinians through terror.

we tried three times (1995 , 2000 , 2008 ) to reach an agreement (we failed) .
That is strange because your Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has something different to say and i mean it ..literally on how he destroyed Oslo records and how easily Americans are manipulated - his words not mine
[YT]hkN1KMLZH4o[/YT]

Translation: This is the full transcript taken from video

Bibi:...The Arabs are currently focusing on a war of terror and they think it will break us. The main thing, first of all, is to hit them. Not just one blow, but blows that are so painful that the price will be too heavy to be borne. The price is not too heavy to be borne, now. A broad attack on the Palestinian Authority. To bring them to the point of being afraid that everything is collapsing...

Woman: Wait a moment, but then the world will say "how come you're conquering again?"

Netanyahu: the world won't say a thing. The world will say we're defending.

Woman: Aren't you afraid of the world, Bibi?

Netanyahu: Especially today, with America. I know what America is. America is something that can easily be moved. Moved to the right direction.

Child: They say they're for us, but, it's like...

Netanyahu: They won't get in our way. They won't get in our way.

Child: On the other hand, if we do some something, then they...

Netanyahu: So let's say they say something. So they said it! They said it! 80% of the Americans support us. It's absurd. We have that kind of support and we say "what will we do with the..." Look. That administration [Clinton] was extremely pro-Palestinian. I wasn't afraid to maneuver there. I was not afraid to clash with Clinton. I was not afraid to clash with the United Nations. I was paying the price anyway, I preferred to receive the value. Value for the price.

Woman: The Oslo Accords are a disaster.

Netanyahu: Yes. You know that and I knew that...The people [nation] has to know...

What were the Oslo Accords? The Oslo Accords, which the Knesset signed, I was asked, before the elections: "Will you act according to them?" and I answered: "yes, subject to mutuality and limiting the retreats." "But how do you intend to limit the retreats?" "I'll give such interpretation to the Accords that will make it possible for me to stop this galloping to the '67 [armistice] lines. How did we do it?

Narrator: The Oslo Accords stated at the time that Israel would gradually hand over territories to the Palestinians in three different pulses, unless the territories in question had settlements or military sites. This is where Netanyahu found a loophole.

Netanyahu: No one said what defined military sites. Defined military sites, I said, were security zones. As far as I'm concerned, the Jordan Valley is a defined military site.

Woman: Right [laughs]...The Beit She'an Valley.

Netanyahu: How can you tell. How can you tell? But then the question came up of just who would define what Defined Military Sites were. I received a letter -- to me and to Arafat, at the same time -- which said that Israel, and only Israel, would be the one to define what those are, the location of those military sites and their size. Now, they did not want to give me that letter, so I did not give the Hebron Agreement. I stopped the government meeting, I said: "I'm not signing." Only when the letter came, in the course of the meeting, to me and to Arafat, only then did I sign the Hebron Agreement. Or rather, ratify it, it had already been signed. Why does this matter? Because at that moment I actually stopped the Oslo Accord.

Woman: And despite that, one of our own people, excuse me, who knew it was a swindle, and that we were going to commit suicide with the Oslo Accord, gives them -- for example -- Hebron...

Netanyahu: Indeed, Hebron hurts. It hurts. It's the thing that hurts. One of the famous rabbis, whom I very much respect, a rabbi of Eretz Yisrael, he said to me: "What would your father say?" I went to my father. Do you know a little about my father's position?

...He's not exactly a lily-white dove, as they say. So my father heard the question and said: "Tell the rabbi that your grandfather, Rabbi Natan Milikowski, was a smart Jew. Tell him it would be better to give two percent than to give a hundred percent. And that's the choice here. You gave two percent and in that way you stopped the withdrawal. Instead of a hundred percent." The trick is not to be there and be broken. The trick is to be there and pay a minimal price."
Let's not even talk about how Israel tried to bring peace in 2008 or else I will have to bring up the 2008 Gaza War where Israel broke the ceasefire with Hamas and attacked with white phosphorous.
[YT]KntmpoRXFX4[/YT]
they kept the nothing or everything mentality
Is that not the menatlity of the Likud party as well of which Benjamin Netanyahu is the chairman?
"The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting."[11]

Similarly, they claim the Jordan River as the permanent eastern border to Israel and it also claims Jerusalem as belonging to Israel.

"Jerusalem is the eternal, united capital of the State of Israel and only of Israel. The government will flatly reject Palestinian proposals to divide Jerusalem, including the plan to divide the city presented to the Knesset by the Arab factions and supported by many members of Labor and Meretz."[12]
The 'Peace & Security' chapter of the 1999 Likud Party platform rejects a Palestinian state.

"The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel's existence, security and national needs."
Src: Likud - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

so we decided to create a border between Israel and Palestine unilaterally according to our security needs
So why is this border not in Israeli territory and why are the illegal settlements increasing with each passing day?
 
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pack leader

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You changed your post to make it sound more chest thumping. Anyway your not in an Israeli forum so how does what you say related to the issue of posting here!

Nationality is just glorified tribalism, its some what narrow if someone keeps thumping his own side. There are no sides we just keep inventing them and if someone gets caught to much into that it not good for anyone.
you are a commie i am a nationalist
we are miles apart in political understanding
after experiencing first hand the hate and discrimination of others
i prefer to live among my "tribe"
and let others live in their "tribe" with mutual respect if possible
unlike you i consider my nation an "extended family that offers love safety and protection"
any attempt to convince you will fail we are too different
 

pmaitra

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you are a commie i am a nationalist
we are miles apart in political understanding
after experiencing first hand the hate and discrimination of others
i prefer to live among my "tribe"
and let others live in their "tribe" with mutual respect if possible
unlike you i consider my nation an "extended family that offers love safety and protection"
any attempt to convince you will fail we are too different
@pack leader,

You are a nationalist and GK is a commie, so you guys are different. Not quite. I think it is more of circumstances than anything else. Even Karl Marx was Jewish, but he was a commie too, and very different from you, admittedly from your own post.

Don't get GK wrong, he simply said that nationalism is glorified tribalism. Whenever nationalism crosses the limits, it needs to be culled, failing which we have nationalists like the Nationalist Socialist Worker's Party of Germany who end up committing mass murder.
 

pack leader

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both in 1995 and in 2008 Likud (union) party wasn't in power
in 1995 the left havoda (labor) party was in charge
and n 2008 the centrist cadima(foreword) party was in power
as for 67 war the blockaid of comertial goods from eilat harbor to the far east
by Egyptian navy is an unlawful deceleration of war
the fact we fired the first shots is meaningless

next :
i don't know were you found this weird quote it doesn't matter
what matters is facts on the ground
in 2005 we unilaterally evicted all Jews from Gaza strip (likud is in power)
as a show of good will ,what did we get in return (rocket barrages )
after this no more evictions were politically acceptable
 
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Godless-Kafir

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you are a commie i am a nationalist
we are miles apart in political understanding
after experiencing first hand the hate and discrimination of others
i prefer to live among my "tribe"
and let others live in their "tribe" with mutual respect if possible
unlike you i consider my nation an "extended family that offers love safety and protection"
any attempt to convince you will fail we are too different
Dont play that Jewish game here, i am not a commie and you dont need to get pity votes by calling me a commie who bullies the poor jew. Lets not head that way, i think Israel has an right to exist and like most members here i support its right to exist.

However when you keep sounding unnecessarily patriotic for no reason it makes you sound hollow and devoid of anyother content. More over family dont kill each other but there is rape, crime and violence in your country with in jews. Its just nationality dont fool yourself.

Anyway forget it, its your Q and A thread and its your right. Go ahead! :D
 
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pack leader

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BTW an edited CNN report is hardly prof of any wrong doing by Israel
more like the success of the only modern art perfected by Palestinians (propaganda and self victimization )
and don't start with the UN stuff they are most bias and hypocritical of them all
 

pack leader

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the endlees effort contnus

as usual the the Palestinian propaganda machine failed to put the words of Bibi in context
the year is 2001 he holds no official title at the time
he is talking to a settler family that just lost there father in a terrorist attack
so he tells them what they want to hear
to make them feel better it doesn't make it true
 

Anonymous

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BTW an edited CNN report is hardly prof of any wrong doing by Israel
more like the success of the only modern art perfected by Palestinians (propaganda and self victimization )
and don't start with the UN stuff they are most bias and hypocritical of them all
I see so the video is propaganda in which Netanyahu is himself speaking about Oslo and Americans, the CNN video is also propaganda and other news articles such as Guardian are also lies and biased including UN (which helped created Israel). Point taken. Thank you for your insight.
 

pack leader

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did you read my post :tsk::tsk::tsk:
the year is 2001 he holds no official title at the time
he is talking to a settler family that just lost there father in a terrorist attack
so he tells them what they want to hear
to make them feel better it doesn't make it true
 
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AOE

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The CNN video at the end shows that their thoughts were inconclusive about who broke the ceasefire first, and technically speaking had the IDF not responded to this tunnel digging; it would have been inevitable that they had to respond. The fact the media cannot highlight this moral subtle difference does not surprise me.

Also the rocket attacks did not cease completely during the brokered ceasefire, had they then chances are those checkpoints and 'blockades' that kept being mentioned in the video would not be there at all. Benjamin Netanyahu nailed it when he recently told Obama that if a negotiation over the question of Palestine is to occur, then it should be done without terrorists; this is something we should know by now since the failure of the Oslo accords.
 
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Adux

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It is our fault, that we allowed Pakistan to acquire nukes, It is our fault we let terrorist camps on that side of the border, it is our fault that we do not assiassinate our enemies like dawood ibrahim, is our fault that we let China grow this rapdily. Now you see a country looking after its interest, and taking pro-active actions, a country that is our ally and has favorable opinion of us, and you want to question their wisdom in protecting themselves from the same kind of people, who threaten us? Really?
 

Adux

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I am all for disproptinate force, if they throw a rock, send them a bullet, if lob a rocket, level anything and everything around where it came from.



 

Adux

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I can never understand gall and logic of Terrorists and militants, (every similar to our maoist, who claimed it is not fair to use night vision goggles, airforce), that they think if they launch a rocket, the other side should only launch a rocket, do you think if the roles reversed, and the terrorist and maoist had all the equipment and weapons, do you think they would do such a thing? The restraint of Israel and USA should be appreciated, I would have nuked the bastard, the restraint of Indians should be spit on, its nothing short of cowardice.
 

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