Public Protests in China: How much is allowed?

bennedose

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In unrelated discussions on other threads I was informed that China allows protests. As evidence of this the same news item about the same protest was posted by two different people on two separate occasions in response to this query. Clearly, China has allowed at least one protest.

I link the news item below and I have some comments about it, which I will make later in this post
China Protest Forcing Nuclear Retreat Shows People Power - Bloomberg

To those of us who live outside of Communist China, the act of protesting against the government of something is seen as unfair is normal. We see many protests and we take part and many protests ourselves. But there are a large number of news items, articles and records of the communist government in China clamping down on protests.

Someone asked me to consult Google and Wikipedia to find out about China. I find that ironic. Google and YouTube and Facebook are banned in China and Google searches are replete with news of clampdowns on protests in China. Clearly protests are not encouraged. To those of us who recognize the value of being able to protest this is a strange situation. Maybe it feels very good, but this thread is to start discussion on the topic and follow it up in the ensuing weeks and months.

A Google search for "Anti-government protests in China" throws up the following links and more

China sends riot police to block new protests by flood victims | Reuters

Chinese police clampdown on anti-government protests | euronews, world news

Chinese Rise Up in Bloody Anti-Pollution Protests, iPhone Owners Yawn | Motherboard

Heavy Police Presence Thwarts Call for Protests in China

Obviously, people do want to protest, but the government will have none of it - or rather it will suppress it if possible.

But this is where I come back to the Bloomberg news item (linked at top) about THE "protest that was allowed" . Here is a quote:

Party's Survival

President Xi Jinping, who is also head of the ruling Communist Party of China, said last month that "winning or losing public support is an issue that concerns the CPC's survival or extinction," according to a June 18 report by the official Xinhua News Agency. Xi spoke at a conference about a yearlong campaign starting in the second half of this year to improve ties between the party and the people, Xinhua said.
This is an amazing piece of information coming from Xinhua. It is "worry of extinction" of the communist party that Xi has openly voiced. In nations with democratically elected governments, if one party dies, it dies because it deserves to die and there is always another party to take over. In China the party worries only when its own ass is on fire, not when the peoples asses are being singed. The news item says that pretty explicitly.

This thread is basically to follow the pattern of anti government protests in China and how they are dealt with.
 

jmj_overlord

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so basically it's not total freedom out there, right ? and protests get clamped down by the authorities very quickly............
 

Ray

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Protest in China?

Some polite crowd at best, not protesting, but bleating passed off as pleading.

China's Public Security Budget is greater than that of its Defence Budget.

That should indicate the total shiver China has over protest or dissident opinion.

They want a regulated society that jumps to the CCP tune. or else.........!
 

bennedose

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so basically it's not total freedom out there, right ? and protests get clamped down by the authorities very quickly............
Well yes.

The fallout of such a policy is as follows
1. Those who don't like something cannot say it or publicly seek support from others who feel like them
2. Those who do like it say nothing. So if there is a biased policy about payment or compensation where some people get more - these people will keep quiet while others have to swallow it
3. A third group realizes that they will get punished if they protest and simply pretend that they are happy.
4. Press censorship will ensure that no negative news gets out.

The net result is that you provide a picture of a nation where most people are happy and everything is fine.

Now look at China. Most Chinese seem happy and everything is fine. Isn't it?
 

Ray

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Take the case of Chen Guangcheng, the blind activist. He worked on human rights issues in rural areas of the People's Republic of China and exposed abuses in official family-planning practices, often involving claims of violence and forced abortions.

He was not even allowed lawyers (not that it would help in the Chinese system of judiciary).

He was sentenced for what?

"sentenced to four years and three months for "damaging property and organising a mob to disturb traffic."

So, that is what happens if you protest in China.
 

ice berg

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Someone asked me to consult Google and Wikipedia to find out about China. I find that ironic. Google and YouTube and Facebook are banned in China and Google searches are replete with news of clampdowns on protests in China. Clearly protests are not encouraged. To those of us who recognize the value of being able to protest this is a strange situation. Maybe it feels very good, but this thread is to start discussion on the topic and follow it up in the ensuing weeks and months.
Sorry if I overestimated your googling skills.


World Report 2012: China | Human Rights Watch

Official and scholarly statistics estimate that 250-500 protests occur per day; participants number from ten to tens of thousands. Internet users and reform-oriented media are aggressively pushing the boundaries of censorship, despite the risks of doing so, by advocating for the rule of law and transparency, exposing official wrong-doing, and calling for reforms.

Also try Chinasmack.com

Enjoy.
 

Dovah

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Sorry if I overestimated your googling skills.


World Report 2012: China | Human Rights Watch

Official and scholarly statistics estimate that 250-500 protests occur per day; participants number from ten to tens of thousands. Internet users and reform-oriented media are aggressively pushing the boundaries of censorship, despite the risks of doing so, by advocating for the rule of law and transparency, exposing official wrong-doing, and calling for reforms.

Also try Chinasmack.com

Enjoy.
250 protests in a country as populous as China is a joke.

Internet users and reform-oriented media are aggressively pushing the boundaries of censorship, despite the risks of doing so, by advocating for the rule of law and transparency, exposing official wrong-doing, and calling for reforms.
A vague statement, are they asking for political reforms? Are the ones actually challenging the CCP not being prosecuted? What about the prominent critics of the government?

You are purposely obfuscating and diluting the issue.
 

bennedose

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Sorry if I overestimated your googling skills.


World Report 2012: China | Human Rights Watch

Official and scholarly statistics estimate that 250-500 protests occur per day; participants number from ten to tens of thousands. Internet users and reform-oriented media are aggressively pushing the boundaries of censorship, despite the risks of doing so, by advocating for the rule of law and transparency, exposing official wrong-doing, and calling for reforms.

Also try Chinasmack.com

Enjoy.
Oh was it you who spoke about Google and quoted Wikipedia as a source of information about China?

Of course there are protests in China - but the Chinese press is not reporting most of them. Your link is from "Human Rights Watch" that is not a Chinese source.

Chinasmack.com is something I will watch - but at 200 protests a day (according to human rights watch) surely Chnasmack should have at least one report of a protest? I see none.

This is precisely what i am saying. News from China is all positive. All well . Hardly any trouble. News about China from outside China says there are issues.

So who is telling the truth about protests in China? The Chinese sources or the non Chinese ones?
 

Ray

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@bennedose.

In China it is Double Think.

Double Think is Doublethink is the act of ordinary people simultaneously accepting two mutually contradictory beliefs as correct, often in distinct social contexts.

Doublethink is related to, but differs from, hypocrisy and neutrality. Somewhat related but almost the opposite is cognitive dissonance, where contradictory beliefs cause conflict in one's mind.

Doublethink is notable due to a lack of cognitive dissonance — thus the person is completely unaware of any conflict or contradiction.

The keyword here is blackwhite. Like so many Newspeak words, this word has two mutually contradictory meanings. Applied to an opponent, it means the habit of impudently claiming that black is white, in contradiction of the plain facts. Applied to a Party member, it means a loyal willingness to say that black is white when Party discipline demands this. But it means also the ability to believe that black is white, and more, to know that black is white, and to forget that one has ever believed the contrary. This demands a continuous alteration of the past, made possible by the system of thought which really embraces all the rest, and which is known in Newspeak as doublethink. Doublethink is basically the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them.
— Part II, Chapter IX — The Theory and Practice of Oligarchical Collectivism
 
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bennedose

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@bennedose.

In China it is Double Think.

Double Think is Doublethink is the act of ordinary people simultaneously accepting two mutually contradictory beliefs as correct, often in distinct social contexts.

Doublethink is related to, but differs from, hypocrisy and neutrality. Somewhat related but almost the opposite is cognitive dissonance, where contradictory beliefs cause conflict in one's mind.

Doublethink is notable due to a lack of cognitive dissonance — thus the person is completely unaware of any conflict or contradiction.
That is an interesting insight Ray. Thanks for posting. I have learned something today
 
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Ray

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That is an interesting insight Ray. Thanks for posting. I have learned something today
I take no credit for it.

It is from 1984 by George Orwell, who was born IIRC in Motihari, Bihar.
 

bennedose

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I take no credit for it.

It is from 1984 by George Orwell, who was born IIRC in Motihari, Bihar.
Thanks. I read it too long ago to recall. Need to read it again. But that passage you have quoted about absence of "cognitive dissonance" - is that from the book?
 

Ray

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Thanks. I read it too long ago to recall. Need to read it again. But that passage you have quoted about absence of "cognitive dissonance" - is that from the book?
Yes.

The Theory and Practice of Oligarchical Collectivism, by Emmanuel Goldstein, is the fictional book that is a thematic and plot element integral to the dystopian novel Nineteen Eighty-Four (1949), by George Orwell. In the totalitarian society of Oceania, ruled by the seemingly omnipotent, omniscient Party, in its propaganda, Emmanuel Goldstein is the principal enemy of the state — a former member of the Inner Party – continually conspiring against the leadership of Big Brother. Early in the story, the protagonist thinks to himself: "There were . . . whispered stories of a terrible book, a compendium of all the heresies, of which Goldstein was the author and which circulated clandestinely here and there. It was a book without a title. People referred to it, if at all, simply as The Book".

The Theory and Practice of Oligarchical Collectivism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

bennedose

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Yes.

The Theory and Practice of Oligarchical Collectivism, by Emmanuel Goldstein, is the fictional book that is a thematic and plot element integral to the dystopian novel Nineteen Eighty-Four (1949), by George Orwell. In the totalitarian society of Oceania, ruled by the seemingly omnipotent, omniscient Party, in its propaganda, Emmanuel Goldstein is the principal enemy of the state — a former member of the Inner Party – continually conspiring against the leadership of Big Brother. Early in the story, the protagonist thinks to himself: "There were . . . whispered stories of a terrible book, a compendium of all the heresies, of which Goldstein was the author and which circulated clandestinely here and there. It was a book without a title. People referred to it, if at all, simply as The Book".

The Theory and Practice of Oligarchical Collectivism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The book (1984) is free to read, download and share.

here is a downloadable pdf
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3JNY4IY8u2bWlZkeWZfUnhXTW8/edit?usp=sharing
 

ice berg

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250 protests in a country as populous as China is a joke.



A vague statement, are they asking for political reforms? Are the ones actually challenging the CCP not being prosecuted? What about the prominent critics of the government?

You are purposely obfuscating and diluting the issue.
In what way are the report obfuscating and diluting the issue? Do you have a better source?
If so share with us. Otherwise attack the message, not the messenger.

Just because a source dont contain all the information dosnt means it is obfuscating and diluting.

We all can use big words, find source and make something out of it is far harder.

.
 

ice berg

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Oh was it you who spoke about Google and quoted Wikipedia as a source of information about China?

Ohh, You didnt know there is difference between sources???? No wonder you are using epoch times. You probably thought all sources are equal on the internet.
Of course there are protests in China - but the Chinese press is not reporting most of them. Your link is from "Human Rights Watch" that is not a Chinese source.

Strange logic. Why does it have to be a chinese source? Does all protests deserve to be covered? YOu tell me most protests in India were covered by the newspaper? If so, source?
Chinasmack.com is something I will watch - but at 200 protests a day (according to human rights watch) surely Chnasmack should have at least one report of a protest? I see none.
Then you need new glasses. Or very very bad at browser.
This is precisely what i am saying. News from China is all positive. All well . Hardly any trouble. News about China from outside China says there are issues.
If the number of protests aint gonna convince you, a site especially translate mainland news gonna help you, then you can believe what you want to believe.
So who is telling the truth about protests in China? The Chinese sources or the non Chinese ones?
I will argue the truth is relative. You make up your own mind. You get a better picture when you can see it from both sides.
 

Ray

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I will argue the truth is relative. You make up your own mind. You get a better picture when you can see it from both sides.
I would add that there is a yawning chasm between truth and propaganda.
 

bennedose

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I will argue the truth is relative. You make up your own mind. You get a better picture when you can see it from both sides.
Exactly. I have no argument with that. I will make up my own mind. Truth being relative is a matter of opinion. Making truth "relative" is also a matter of convenience. I will make up my mind on that as well.
 

bose

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All propaganda has to be based on some truth, otherwise you cant sell it to people.
So China needs Propaganda machine to sell truth... else the common Chinese are too susceptible to falsehood... great idea!!
 

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