Project-75I class SSK Submarines

[Gessler]

Navy wants three carriers. Logically it needs 6 SSN to protect these carriers. If SSN are not around, you will need conventional boats with at least two weeks underwater capability. This will not come from Scorpene.

While relying on power provided by the AIP, a submarine's speed in usual conditions cannot be more than 5-6 knots. AIP is an auxiliary power pack - it's not a primary power source, that is still the diesel-electric engine.

The AIP only increases the submarine's own maximum underwater endurance so it isn't forced to surface within a set period of time. If you stay underwater for extended periods in such a submarine, the AIP will bog you down and you will not be able to keep up with the CBG (which usually moves between 15 and 30 knots speed).

So while an AIP fitment is great for increasing the submarine's own survivability factor, it does little to increase the sub's ability to escort or protect CBGs. Infact in the escort role, it has to limit the use of AIP until and unless it's going after a contact on it's own. Because if you rely on AIP - you fall behind big time.

Point is - when talking about CBG-escort, AIP or non-AIP does not make much of a difference.

P.S. You can go faster with AIP - but at the cost of severely reducing the battery's operational life and at increased risk of explosion. Not recommended.

 

[garg_bharat]

I think soryu class has a submerged speed of 20 knots.

Though not sure if this speed is at periscope depth.

Commercial power modules for 400KW are available using phosphoric acid fuel cells.

It does seem that AIP tech is better than batteries at least superficially.

 

[Gessler]

I think soryu class has a submerged speed of 20 knots.

That's while powered by the diesel-electric setup. Once AIP comes online to extend the submersed time, speed is severely curtailed to preserve the limited power source.

Scorpene also can reach 20 knots submerged.

There is nothing wrong in having AIP for future Scorpenes, it has it's uses. But having it or not does not make any difference in the carrier-escort role.

It does seem that AIP tech is better than batteries at least superficially.

I did mean the fuel cells actually. I said 'batteries' by mistake.

You can theoretically have a submarine move at 20kt on AIP power, but doing so will destroy the cells' operational life & effectiveness, and also presents safety hazards.

 

[tharun]

We can add these type of brahmos VLS container system submarine which typically contain 8 missiles with empty weight of 15-16 tonnes.
With two systems submarine can carry 16 missiles..

 

[abingdonboy]

So this GOI has played politics with the nation's security and cancelled every defence deal with Finmeccanica, the result? At least 4 on going mega projects of the IN affected in the short term; P-75 (no Black Shark torpedos), P-17A and P-15B (OTO 127MM main guns, incidentally almost every single major warship of the IN uses the 76mm OTO SRGM) and the the IAC-1 (RAN-40L VSR). I assure you this pushes back the IAC-1's induction by YEARS as a result and the P-75s ($500m/boat) are being inducted effectively toothless.

What other nation on the planet is this ret@rded? Cancelling all defence deals with a parent company and ALL of its subsidaries for some (totally unproven thus far) wrongdoing of a few induviduals contained within it? Why not just impose a fine? Why go this far and hurt Indian defence so severely?

Parrikar and Swamy are f*cking clowns who have no interest in looking out for India's security, no they are looking to make maximum poltical capital here and selling their nation down the river.


@PARIKRAMA @LETHALFORCE @Gessler @pmaitra @sayareakd

 

[Indx TechStyle]

So this GOI has played politics with the nation's security and cancelled every defence deal with Finmeccanica, the result? At least 4 on going mega projects of the IN affected in the short term; P-75 (no Black Shark torpedos), P-17A and P-15B (OTO 127MM main guns, incidentally almost every single major warship of the IN uses the 76mm OTO SRGM) and the the IAC-1 (RAN-40L VSR). I assure you this pushes back the IAC-1's induction by YEARS as a result and the P-75s ($500m/boat) are being inducted effectively toothless.

What other nation on the planet is this ret@rded? Cancelling all defence deals with a parent company and ALL of its subsidaries for some (totally unproven thus far) wrongdoing of a few induviduals contained within it? Why not just impose a fine? Why go this far and hurt Indian defence so severely?

Parrikar and Swamy are f*cking clowns who have no interest in looking out for India's security, no they are looking to make maximum poltical capital here and selling their nation down the river.


@PARIKRAMA @LETHALFORCE @Gessler @pmaitra @sayareakd

Well, for torpedoes, government has already said if other options (who knows if indigenous heavyweight torpedo :biggrin2: ).
There's no meaning of keeping military relationship with such a hypocrite country like Italy and a company Finmeccanica. We better look for other options.

 

[abingdonboy]

Well, for torpedoes, government has already said if other options (who knows if indigenous heavyweight torpedo :biggrin2: ).

What the govt isn't openly adimitting (for obvious reasons)is that the IN Scorpenes are ALREADY hardwired for the Black Shark torpedos meaning that it is going to take intensive work in the dockyard to fit a new torpedo system onto these boats not to mention more $$$ and thus the sunk costs for the Black Shark have been for nothing.

There's no meaning of keeping military relationship with such a hypocrite country like Italy and a company Finmeccanica.

This is the problems with Indians, some can get too emotional and let that cloud their decision making. Whatever ones views on Italy they still have a lot to offer India and it is nowhere more clear than in the defence sector but instead this GoI would rather throw the baby out with the bathwater and and black list the entire parent company and some Indians would fully support this.

We better look for other options.

And if you want to talk about being "hypocritical" how about a defence minister who is delaying finalising a fighter deal for a force that hasn't inducted a new type for DECADES because he is promising "a good deal for India" but at the same time takes decsions like this that COST India hundreds of millions of USD AND hurt its defence procurement/domestic projects heavily.

And you know what is more hypocritical? Just a few months ago this very same defence minister Parrikar had said he would no longer pursue this bat-sh!t crazy blacklisting policy but look what he has gone and done....

 

[Gessler]

So this GOI has played politics with the nation's security and cancelled every defence deal with Finmeccanica, the result? At least 4 on going mega projects of the IN affected in the short term; P-75 (no Black Shark torpedos), P-17A and P-15B (OTO 127MM main guns, incidentally almost every single major warship of the IN uses the 76mm OTO SRGM) and the the IAC-1 (RAN-40L VSR). I assure you this pushes back the IAC-1's induction by YEARS as a result and the P-75s ($500m/boat) are being inducted effectively toothless.

What other nation on the planet is this ret@rded? Cancelling all defence deals with a parent company and ALL of its subsidaries for some (totally unproven thus far) wrongdoing of a few induviduals contained within it? Why not just impose a fine? Why go this far and hurt Indian defence so severely?

Parrikar and Swamy are f*cking clowns who have no interest in looking out for India's security, no they are looking to make maximum poltical capital here and selling their nation down the river.


@PARIKRAMA @LETHALFORCE @Gessler @pmaitra @sayareakd

Regarding ongoing procurements/already delivered products, PKSG had this to say -

" Existing contracts will be adhered to. Only no new contracts will be inked. That means product-support contracts for 76/62 SRGM & RAN-40L will continue without any hindrance. But yet-to-be-placed contracts with SELEX ES for the Sea King Mk.42B & Ka-28PLs WILL NOT be signed. In other words, a whole new re-tendering exercise will begin. Similarly, the SR-SAM project with MBDA (in which Leonardo Finmeccanica has a stake) will be TERMINATED. "

++

As of the RAN-40L radar, as far as I know only 1 example was ordered (for the IAC-1) and last I heard it had already arrived at CSL and was pending installation. So yeah, Vikrant will have the RAN-40L and it's maintenance/spare-supply will be taken care of, as will be for the naval guns.

But the problem now is, we will have to go out looking for a whole new long-wavelength volume-search radar for the other ships like future frigates/destroyers, as obviously the RAWL-02 is obsolete. There will be no standardization for this class of radar (Surveillance) unlike the Fire-Control/Target Acquisition category where the MF-STAR would be standardized on various classes of warships.

But yeah, without doubt, the extremely profound risk-aversion mentality (evidently left on the seat by AK Antony and contracted to Parrikar as well) is becoming a bigger problem than we ever thought it will.

There needs to be a set procedure in place that prevents the loss of combat or strategic capabilities in the event of corporate/personal-level wrongdoings. Without such mechanisms, any idiot can drop an anonymous file in front of the RM's office saying that there was corruption involved in supplying the steel for the Arihant-class submarines - and as a result the RM goes to cancel the whole program and go for re-tendering the steel contract while the nation's second-strike capability will be dismantled.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

What the govt isn't openly adimitting (for obvious reasons)is that the IN Scorpenes are ALREADY hardwired for the Black Shark torpedos meaning that it is going to take intensive work in the dockyard to fit a new torpedo system onto these boats not to mention more $$$ and thus the sunk costs for the Black Shark have been for nothing.

So, let them. Just for preventing a small delay whose gap can be fulfilled, you wanna get Italian company again.
Remember chopper scam? Such things mostly happens with this country.

This is the problems with Indians, some can get too emotional and let that cloud their decision making. Whatever ones views on Italy they still have a lot to offer India and it is nowhere more clear than in the defence sector but instead this GoI would rather throw the baby out with the bathwater and and black list the entire parent company and some Indians would fully support this.

Really? They got emotional enough to block us from MTCR but you still want Indians to behave neutral? :biggrin2:
Yes, they have something to offer but they aren't alone. There are others too.

And if you want to talk about being "hypocritical" how about a defence minister who is delaying finalising a fighter deal for a force that hasn't inducted a new type for DECADES because he is promising "a good deal for India" but at the same time takes decsions like this that COST India hundreds of millions of USD AND hurt its defence procurement/domestic projects heavily.

Go through some of my posts thread of DRDO and PSU Discussion and other one created and ran by myself of info on indigenization and exports.
There's a very good reason why I support him.

you know what is more hypocritical? Just a few months ago this very same defence minister Parrikar had said he would no longer pursue this bat-sh!t crazy blacklisting policy but look what he has gone and done....

Gone doesn't mean closing eyes.
If I ask to surrender entire arms industry to Ambanis, me and you both know what gonna happen.

 

[abingdonboy]

That means product-support contracts for 76/62 SRGM & RAN-40L will continue without any hindrance. But yet-to-be-placed contracts with SELEX ES for the Sea King Mk.42B & Ka-28PLs WILL NOT be signed. In other words, a whole new re-tendering exercise will begin. Similarly, the SR-SAM project with MBDA (in which Leonardo Finmeccanica has a stake) will be TERMINATED. "

No mention here about those 127mm OTO guns for the P-17A and P-15B classes


+ if that is the case bro (all ongoing contracts will progress as agreed) then what about the AW-101 deal? 3 examples of these fine machines are sat idle in Palam whilst the PM of India and the NCA fly in 30+ year old JUNK that is on the brink of being u/s.

As of the RAN-40L radar, as far as I know only 1 example was ordered (for the IAC-1) and last I heard it had already arrived at CSL and was pending installation. So yeah, Vikrant will have the RAN-40L and it's maintenance/spare-supply will be taken care of, as will be for the naval guns.

Interesting because I had read a news article that said the RAN-40L deal (and 127mm gun) deal had been cancelled with this move.

But the problem now is, we will have to go out looking for a whole new long-wavelength volume-search radar for the other ships like future frigates/destroyers, as obviously the RAWL-02 is obsolete. There will be no standardization for this class of radar (Surveillance) unlike the Fire-Control/Target Acquisition category where the MF-STAR would be standardized on various classes of warships.

Exactly, it seems one way or another India keeps getting itself in this postion but do you think the politicans or babus give a hoot about "standardization", most of them won't even know of this term/concept.

I would assume the THALES SMART-L was in pole position to step in now and be the standard VSR in place of the RAN-40L for the major IN warships going foreward. The IAC-1 will remain the sole ship in the IN with the RAN-40L (great) and even later ships of the IAC-1 class will have to have a different VSR.

But yeah, without doubt, the extremely profound risk-aversion mentality (evidently left on the seat by AK Antony and contracted to Parrikar as well) is becoming a bigger problem than we ever thought it will.

There needs to be a set procedure in place that prevents the loss of combat or strategic capabilities in the event of corporate/personal-level wrongdoings. Without such mechanisms, any idiot can drop an anonymous file in front of the RM's office saying that there was corruption involved in supplying the steel for the Arihant-class submarines - and as a result the RM goes to cancel the whole program and go for re-tendering the steel contract while the nation's second-strike capability will be dismantled.

The trouble is defence is perceived to be an "easy target" and the number of vester interests and lobbies involved all vying for different objectives lead to a very toxic mess and the poltical "leaders" in India are too risk adverse and see more utility in cancelling/blacklisting rather than justifing the need for such equipment and protecting the nation's security.

It's funny how Parrikar will be lauded for "defending India's interests" with this move when he himself had conceeded not long ago that blanket blacklisting was incredibly counter-productive and only hurt the uders (Indian Mil) in the long term. This is "Saint" Anthony 2.0- took a decsion to cover his own a$$ rather than doing his god damn job!


To me it seems as though Parrikar is trying to make up for his shortfall in performance by garnering attention/accolades by these less than impressive means. When you have stellar performers such as Gadkari, Prabhu and Goyal, Parrikar is trying to "impress" by attracting the media's attention with bizzare remarks (he has made so many) and things like this. It really is a case of talking more and doing less, he is little more than hot air.

So, let them. Just for preventing a small delay whose gap can be fulfilled, you wanna get Italian company again.

Who cares if they are Italian? Are you really going to dismiss an entire nation, a nation that is FAR more developed/advanced than Indian in most areas?

Remember chopper scam? Such things mostly happens with this country.

What "chopper scam"? The one the BJP has been crying about for weeks but has not proven a single instance of wrong doing? The scam that has conveniently slipped off the media's radar? One loudmouth (Swamy) has uniltarally dragged the IAF and many others' images through the mud but to this date there is not a shred of evidence to support the cr@p that clown has claimed.

Really? They got emotional enough to block us from MTCR but you still want Indians to behave neutral? :biggrin2:

So further aggravating them with these petty and very counter-productive moves is going to be constructive for India's efforts, is it? This is most childish behaviour and isn't how mature nations conduct themselves. India should be trying to settle the differences diplomatically not by further enraging the Italians that like them or loathe them DO hold a hell of a lot of power still.

Go through some of my posts thread of DRDO and PSU Discussion and other one created and ran by myself of info on indigenization and exports.
There's a very good reason why I support him.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Just because Parrikar has done right in the past does not meen he is infalible, compared to the performance of other ministries MP's MoD has seriously underperformed.

 

[garg_bharat]

Parade of [edited] is full on in this thread.

The [edited] abingdonboy forgets that investigation is being driven by Italian agencies and sentences have been handed out already. He wants us to believe there is no wrongdoing.

The fear is more blowups in Italy and France deals. Everybody knows how these deals were conducted except idiots on this message board.

The government cannot afford these blowups so cancelling the deals is the best way.

 

[garg_bharat]

It is good that scorpene is redesigned to remove hardwiring for black shark.

It is a folly to buy such design in the first place when local torpedoes of similar category are being developed.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Who cares if they are Italian? Are you really going to dismiss an entire nation, a nation that is FAR more developed/advanced than Indian in most areas?


What "chopper scam"? The one the BJP has been crying about for weeks but has not proven a single instance of wrong doing? The scam that has conveniently slipped off the media's radar? One loudmouth (Swamy) has uniltarally dragged the IAF and many others' images through the mud but to this date there is not a shred of evidence to support the cr@p that clown has claimed.



So further aggravating them with these petty and very counter-productive moves is going to be constructive for India's efforts, is it? This is most childish behaviour and isn't how mature nations conduct themselves. India should be trying to settle the differences diplomatically not by further enraging the Italians that like them or loathe them DO hold a hell of a lot of power still.

You are saying there's no other technologically advanced country ahead of us in world except Italy who can help us?
Watch their moves, they don't want us, kyun gale pado faltu main. Aur bhi toh hain.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Just because Parrikar has done right in the past does not meen he is infalible, compared to the performance of other ministries MP's MoD has seriously underperformed.

You simply mean that an unrecoverable damage has been done in no time.

 

[ezsasa]

So this GOI has played politics with the nation's security and cancelled every defence deal with Finmeccanica, the result? At least 4 on going mega projects of the IN affected in the short term; P-75 (no Black Shark torpedos), P-17A and P-15B (OTO 127MM main guns, incidentally almost every single major warship of the IN uses the 76mm OTO SRGM) and the the IAC-1 (RAN-40L VSR). I assure you this pushes back the IAC-1's induction by YEARS as a result and the P-75s ($500m/boat) are being inducted effectively toothless.

What other nation on the planet is this ret@rded? Cancelling all defence deals with a parent company and ALL of its subsidaries for some (totally unproven thus far) wrongdoing of a few induviduals contained within it? Why not just impose a fine? Why go this far and hurt Indian defence so severely?

Parrikar and Swamy are f*cking clowns who have no interest in looking out for India's security, no they are looking to make maximum poltical capital here and selling their nation down the river.


@PARIKRAMA @LETHALFORCE @Gessler @pmaitra @sayareakd

We also have to consider the possibility that indications of cancelling all further contracts is a counter to Italy blocking MTCR, earlier Italians were using the marines issue to block our entry. Now that marines issue is partially resolved, may be Parrikar is coaxing Italians to act in our favour. And don't forget Italian economy is not doing that well now a days, they need all the foreign currency they can get.

On national security, we should avoid looking certain events in isolation.

 

[prateikf]

I fully support and agree with Abingdonboy. The Italian court has itself said that it has no proof that any Indian official has taken bribes and our CBI too has failed to find anyone guilty. If there was a scam why has no Indian official, who took bribes, been arrested in the last 4 years? Why are so many ok with millions of dollars of taxpayer money being wasted to change the Scorpene fire control system ? What about the Country's defence preparedness? Will we blacklist the entire Tata group if Tata steel or Tata power do something wrong ? If things go on like this foreign defence manufacturers will blacklist the Indian MOD for being involved in numerous cases of corruption. The ban on Bofors, Denel, IMI, HDW did not effect them but destroyed the offensive capabilities of our armed forces. Should china attack us today we it would be a repetition of 1962. Waving a blacklist of defence manufacturers at the PLA and Pak army is unlikely to scare them.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

So this GOI has played politics with the nation's security and cancelled every defence deal with Finmeccanica, the result? At least 4 on going mega projects of the IN affected in the short term; P-75 (no Black Shark torpedos), P-17A and P-15B (OTO 127MM main guns, incidentally almost every single major warship of the IN uses the 76mm OTO SRGM) and the the IAC-1 (RAN-40L VSR). I assure you this pushes back the IAC-1's induction by YEARS as a result and the P-75s ($500m/boat) are being inducted effectively toothless.

What other nation on the planet is this ret@rded? Cancelling all defence deals with a parent company and ALL of its subsidaries for some (totally unproven thus far) wrongdoing of a few induviduals contained within it? Why not just impose a fine? Why go this far and hurt Indian defence so severely?

Parrikar and Swamy are f*cking clowns who have no interest in looking out for India's security, no they are looking to make maximum poltical capital here and selling their nation down the river.


@PARIKRAMA @LETHALFORCE @Gessler @pmaitra @sayareakd

I thought about this I think the government must have a plan b? This may simply be
Political pressure and then they will backtrack
Later. I hate these deals which become dependent on foreign tech. This is another example of why we need a indigenous
Defense base.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Abingdonboy

Leonardo Finmeccanica claims
Torpedo deals were just talk nothing official? No orders pending for India?

http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...eccanica-india-blacklist-helicopter/85185124/

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MKM]

There's no meaning of keeping military relationship with such a hypocrite country like Italy and a company Finmeccanica. We better look for other options.

Which type of hypocracy Italy is showing?
Every country has right to do everything it can do to protect their citizen & army men come before citizens, army men are pride of every nation.

Regarding ongoing procurements/already delivered products, PKSG had this to say -

" Existing contracts will be adhered to. Only no new contracts will be inked. That means product-support contracts for 76/62 SRGM & RAN-40L will continue without any hindrance. But yet-to-be-placed contracts with SELEX ES for the Sea King Mk.42B & Ka-28PLs WILL NOT be signed. In other words, a whole new re-tendering exercise will begin. Similarly, the SR-SAM project with MBDA (in which Leonardo Finmeccanica has a stake) will be TERMINATED. "

Are you sure about 127mm SRGM, you remember there was only one vendor for 127/130mm SRGM when tender was released?

So, let them. Just for preventing a small delay whose gap can be fulfilled, you wanna get Italian company again.
Remember chopper scam? Such things mostly happens with this country.

Remember Bofors scam, remember coffin scam?
It's Indian we love scam not Italians, it's not Sonia Gandhi who is anti-national whole INC is anti-national otherwise Sonia Gandhi wouldn't have became president of INC. Why blame Italy when we love to do corruption & love to elect corrupt polititians?

Really? They got emotional enough to block us from MTCR but you still want Indians to behave neutral? :biggrin2:
Yes, they have something to offer but they aren't alone. There are others too.

Tell me how many company bidded for 127/130mm SRGM?
It was only Leonardo-Finmeccanica.
Who will run when we bid for ASW helicopter with ToT?
Well, I can't find any reason US will agree to ToT on everything. From Russia we don't have ToT for operating 400 Mi-17 & more than 600 helicopters.
What will you do if Leonardo-Finmeccanica acquires some stake in Airbus, yes they can do easily as they have JVs?
How many deal you will cancel, Rafale too?
We blacklisted MBDA too, how many products we operate from MBDA?

Go through some of my posts thread of DRDO and PSU Discussion and other one created and ran by myself of info on indigenization and exports.
There's a very good reason why I support him.

How much indigenization?
Without ToT & JV India can't get indigenization, when it comes to JVs & ToT Leonardo-Finmeccanica always ready, you know turkey is developing TAI-T129 something?
That may become better than LCH, at least will grab export potential.

Gone doesn't mean closing eyes.
If I ask to surrender entire arms industry to Ambanis, me and you both know what gonna happen.

Who surrendered to Ambanis?
But they have money, they can do job, Reliance has major share in our exports, I hope you didn't forgot that.

Interesting because I had read a news article that said the RAN-40L deal (and 127mm gun) deal had been cancelled with this move.

There was only one vendor for 127/130mm SRGM.

The trouble is defence is perceived to be an "easy target" and the number of vester interests and lobbies involved all vying for different objectives lead to a very toxic mess and the poltical "leaders" in India are too risk adverse and see more utility in cancelling/blacklisting rather than justifying the need for such equipment and protecting the nation's security.

It's funny how Parrikar will be lauded for "defending India's interests" with this move when he himself had conceeded not long ago that blanket blacklisting was incredibly counter-productive and only hurt the uders (Indian Mil) in the long term. This is "Saint" Anthony 2.0- took a decsion to cover his own a$$ rather than doing his god damn job!


To me it seems as though Parrikar is trying to make up for his shortfall in performance by garnering attention/accolades by these less than impressive means. When you have stellar performers such as Gadkari, Prabhu and Goyal, Parrikar is trying to "impress" by attracting the media's attention with bizzare remarks (he has made so many) and things like this. It really is a case of talking more and doing less, he is little more than hot air

Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Just because Parrikar has done right in the past does not meen he is infalible, compared to the performance of other ministries MP's MoD has seriously underperformed.

Parade of idiots is full on in this thread.

The idiot abingdonboy forgets that investigation is being driven by Italian agencies and sentences have been handed out already. He wants us to believe there is no wrongdoing.

The fear is more blowups in Italy and France deals. Everybody knows how these deals were conducted except idiots on this message board.

The government cannot afford these blowups so cancelling the deals is the best way.

Sir actually, idiots live everywhere, you remember a proverb "Who thinks that he is wise thinks that all other are idiot is biggest idiot.
Actually, it's BJP not govt which can't see blowups & blacklisting is for political reason not for Italy but for INC.

It is good that scorpene is redesigned to remove hardwiring for black shark.

It is a folly to buy such design in the first place when local torpedoes of similar category are being developed.

If we would have bought Scorpenes from DCNS it would costed 650million ruppes but with 35% indigenization & DRDO AIP it will cost more than 1.2 billion dollar. already & redesigning for any other torpedo will take time & money.

You are saying there's no other technologically advanced country ahead of us in world except Italy who can help us?
Watch their moves, they don't want us, kyun gale pado faltu main. Aur bhi toh hain.

Watch bollywood movies, even they don't want us.
Ok, tell me name of companies which will supply 127/130mm SRGM for P15B, P17A?

You simply mean that an unrecoverable damage has been done in no time.

We also have to consider the possibility that indications of cancelling all further contracts is a counter to Italy blocking MTCR, earlier Italians were using the marines issue to block our entry. Now that marines issue is partially resolved, may be Parrikar is coaxing Italians to act in our favour. And don't forget Italian economy is not doing that well now a days, they need all the foreign currency they can get.
On national security, we should avoid looking certain events in isolation.

Well, they are already developed, their population is shrinking what more they need?
All countries economy isn't doing on a good way.
Even if they remain on where they are & we develop on speed which we are developing we won't overtake them before at least 2050.

I fully support and agree with Abingdonboy. The Italian court has itself said that it has no proof that any Indian official has taken bribes and our CBI too has failed to find anyone guilty. If there was a scam why has no Indian official, who took bribes, been arrested in the last 4 years? Why are so many ok with millions of dollars of taxpayer money being wasted to change the Scorpene fire control system ? What about the Country's defence preparedness? Will we blacklist the entire Tata group if Tata steel or Tata power do something wrong ? If things go on like this foreign defence manufacturers will blacklist the Indian MOD for being involved in numerous cases of corruption. The ban on Bofors, Denel, IMI, HDW did not effect them but destroyed the offensive capabilities of our armed forces. Should china attack us today we it would be a repetition of 1962. Waving a blacklist of defence manufacturers at the PLA and Pak army is unlikely to scare them.

You have to include much more ST Kinetics &
after Leonardo-Finmeccanica
MBDA
NHIndustries
ATR
AgustaWestland
Selex ES
OTO Melara
WASS
& etc.
This list is not even 1% complete.
Now except American only Saab, Navantia, Airbus & BAE systems are left in Europe.
I hope BAE & Airbus won't blacklisted before 2050.
Even in US now not many options left as Lockheed Martin had acquired Sikorsky.
Number of defence companies will become less day by day as West, Japan & many other countries are decreasing defence budget day by day
Only major industries for west will be India(West, Israel & Russia will fight) & ME(Russia, China & West will fight).
SCR won't see more than 20 billion arms procurement even in 2030.
Now budget of Vietnam is 4 billion & Philippines is 1 Billion & at both places India will give tough fight on cost as India can their requirement.
Singapore have money but don't have land to put this much arms so I don't think Singapore will buy more, they already have a good degree of indigenization.

 

[MKM]

Oh! Will IN get more Exocet as Exocet too is built by MBDA....?
Means Scorpenes????
I don't think we have sufficient stock....

 

[tharun]

Why we are going after VLS system for brahmos.
Can't we use torpedo tubes for it like klub class missiles.
Means 3 torpedo tubes for torpedos and other for just brahmos