Project-75I class SSK Submarines

[nrj]

Tender is going to DCNS.

File sitting in MoD itself tells that process is in its last leg. Issues concerning MDL & armament composition dispute is injecting whatever is said to be 'delay' AFAIK.

Sent via Tapatalk from a galaxy far far away

 

[vishwaprasad]

Hi...I honestly think that we should not go for more SSK's after scorpean submarines. why go for more SSK's when our own nuclear submarine program seems to be going well and as per schedule, Arihant and Aridaman. in future I feel that we should not operate SSK's at all like US or France does...our submarine arm should be completely of home made nuclear subs which in comparison of SSK's will be much more lethal and cost effective platform. Just a thought.

 

[Kranthi]

Hi...I honestly think that we should not go for more SSK's after scorpean submarines. why go for more SSK's when our own nuclear submarine program seems to be going well and as per schedule, Arihant and Aridaman. in future I feel that we should not operate SSK's at all like US or France does...our submarine arm should be completely of home made nuclear subs which in comparison of SSK's will be much more lethal and cost effective platform. Just a thought.

Lethal yes but not cost effective.The reactor itself costs a lot.
Those scorpions and all are a bit costly because of ToT and shipyard up-gradations.

While an all nuclear submarine fleet is good,we still need SSKs as they do have their own advantages.
Modern subs with AIP are far more silent compared to nuclear subs and also will b cheaper platforms once we get the ability to design and build them on our own.

SSBNs are a must but SSNs can b optional for us. Majorly required to protect costly assets like carriers etc or for missions outside our waters,but no where in the near future will we move our carriers or subs too far from our shores and as long as we don't need to move out,we don't need SSNs.Especially when modern conventional subs can do the task even though with limited range but less maintenance costs.

Also we can get access to new sub technologies by these ToTs which we can apply to our nuke sub programs to improve their ability and stealth.


This is just my perspective.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Lethal yes but not cost effective.The reactor itself costs a lot.Those scorpions and all are a bit costly because of ToT and shipyard up-gradations.

While an all nuclear submarine fleet is good,we still need SSKs as they do have their own advantages.Modern subs with AIP are far more silent compared to nuclear subs..

SSBNs are a must but SSNs can b optional for us. Majorly required to protect costly assets like carriers etc or for missions outside our waters,Especially when modern conventional subs can do the task even though with limited range but less maintenance costs.

This is just my perspective.

A smaller type nuclear-powered attack submarine will cost same as these expensive AIP equipped subs today, Some one who have written or told that Nuclear Subs are noisy is not well informed, Also AIP deign to increase Endurance of the submarine not stealth regarding Noise suppression..

Nuclear Subs such as

1. Project 971 Shuka-B class
2. Astute-class
3. Virginia class
4. Near Future Barracuda class

Are most sophisticated and more Silent than any diesel Submarine today, India Should make Compact nuclear-powered attack submarine with compact and smaller reactors and available technology inputs of Arihant..

 

[vishwaprasad]

Yes Kunal sir is right.

Kranti... sometimes I feel that AIP equipped SSK being silent than nuclear subs is nothing but a propaganda created by top of the line SSK manufacturers around the world so many customers still consider SSK instead of SSN. Off course not every nation can have nuclear subs but the fact is not every nation can afford costly SSK's too...But still I think such propaganda is targeted to have pie in the market of such nations who can afford to buy SSK's and at the same time have the ability to make its own nuclear submarines such as India, Australia, Japan, Korea, Brazil etc

 

[natarajan]

is french rubis is good ssn ,if so we can get atleast 6 from them

 

[vishwaprasad]

is french rubis is good ssn ,if so we can get atleast 6 from them

French technology is always good, but I think Rubis are quite old now and being replaced by Barracudas...Besides again we cannot buy them, we have to lease them...keeping two nuclear Akulas, our own 5 nuclear subs and 6 nuclear Rubis will eat major chunk of our naval expenses on submarines only....best solution in my opinion will be home made nuclear subs...still if we go for 6 more SSKs then it should be scorpean only as 6 we are already getting then get more 6 and reduce logistic headache.

So in future our offensive under water arm who will actually enter in enemy waters to hunt enemy ships and launch attacks on port will be as under

12 Scorpeans
2 Akuls
10 Indian ATV's (assuming we could afford and decide to build 5 more)

Total 24 lethal and modern ssk+ssn

For defense of our ports and coastal patrolling during the war we can still use our 10 KILOS (which are still a very good subs today) and 4 U-209's...just my thinking...

 

[Kranthi]

A smaller type nuclear-powered attack submarine will cost same as these expensive AIP equipped subs today, Some one who have written or told that Nuclear Subs are noisy is not well informed, Also AIP deign to increase Endurance of the submarine not stealth regarding Noise suppression..

Nuclear Subs such as

1. Project 971 Shuka-B class
2. Astute-class
3. Virginia class
4. Near Future Barracuda class

Are most sophisticated and more Silent than any diesel Submarine today, India Should make Compact nuclear-powered attack submarine with compact and smaller reactors and available technology inputs of Arihant..

Accepted with some points but i heard that the noise from control rods n all are a bit higher compared to newer conventional subs.
However there are many ways to stop that noise from going out of the submarine by using different types of absorbants.

Anyway Arihant class are the only submarine we built on our own with very limited foreign support.
We still don't have a lot of experience or modern technologies regarding submarines.

So atleast for now we have to go for new ToT s just to b on par with latest technologies and then we can go on with improving those techs on our own.

Also it is better to choose a different model for p75i other than scorpene.
So that there could b some other advances in that new model which might not b found in scorpene.

I just mean that we have till now only operated russian kilos and german U 209s which are already old now and to some extent outdated technologies.
we better study few newer subs and then start making our own.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Accepted with some points but i heard that the noise from control rods n all are a bit higher compared to newer conventional subs.
However there are many ways to stop that noise from going out of the submarine by using different types of absorbants.

Can you provide me the info about such information coz i am very much doubtful regarding control rod noise..

Anyway Arihant class are the only submarine we built on our own with very limited foreign support.We still don't have a lot of experience or modern technologies regarding submarines.

We built it with very latest technology coming from french DCN and Russians, The Arihant is a Indian Degined Submarine but it have foregin parts too, there is nothing that we dont know about Arihant..

And India have capability to manufacture Nuclear attack Subs with smaller reactors..

So atleast for now we have to go for new ToT s just to b on par with latest technologies and then we can go on with improving those techs on our own.Also it is better to choose a different model for p75i other than scorpene.So that there could b some other advances in that new model which might not b found in scorpene.I just mean that we have till now only operated russian kilos and german U 209s which are already old now and to some extent outdated technologies.we better study few newer subs and then start making our own.

We need AIP for Conventional Subs and TOT is needed and worth having, But Russian Kilos are very formidable with recent upgrades..

 

[Kranthi]

Can you provide me the info about such information coz i am very much doubtful regarding control rod noise..

Air-independent propulsion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

sorry its for pumping coolant actually,or i think this has something related to the control rods.
I have also read it somewhere else which i don't remember.
Though wiki is not always a reliable source,it still can't b completely false.

We built it with very latest technology coming from french DCN and Russians, The Arihant is a Indian Degined Submarine but it have foregin parts too, there is nothing that we dont know about Arihant..

And India have capability to manufacture Nuclear attack Subs with smaller reactors..

India do have the capability.
Infact the 1st ever sub built in india without a complete ToT (or with our own desing and implementation,though copied fromkilos and charlie) is a nuke sub.
So no doubt we can built smaller nuke subs.

We need AIP for Conventional Subs and TOT is needed and worth having, But Russian Kilos are very formidable with recent upgrades..

recent upgrades are some changes in systems and abilities but the hull and design still remains that of the same old kilos.
Not because we cannot build our own subs.
The navy have decided to buy because we have to study more techs which the owners might only share if we buy a them.And we better learn different sub design this time rather than the scorpene again.

After all i think these will b our last subs bought from others.

 

[Kranthi]

I have also read it somewhere else which i don't remember.

here
Tomorrow's Submarine Fleet: The Non-nuclear Option

 

[Kunal Biswas]

here
Tomorrow's Submarine Fleet: The Non-nuclear Option

Its a old article published in February of 2002, Though some interesting inputs..

Air-independent propulsion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wiki take links from that article only

recent upgrades are some changes in systems and abilities but the hull and design still remains that of the same old kilos.Not because we cannot build our own subs.The navy have decided to buy because we have to study more techs which the owners might only share if we buy a them.And we better learn different sub design this time rather than the scorpene again.After all i think these will b our last subs bought from others.

Scorpian are good subs but there present condition that is the delay IN facing, One should work to minimize the risks by looking at other possibilities..

Regarding Kilo, Not only offensive capability but new generation Anechoic tile and digital instruments and many more..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Pvt firms may get nod to make subs
Within a decade, Indian private shipyards may manufacture conventional submarines for Indian Navy as a section within the Navy is keen on permitting submarine manufacturing in these yards to accelerate the laggard acquisition process.

With the Navy keen on getting submarines in adequate numbers quickly to make up for its fast depleting submarine fleet and order books of government shipyards being full, roping in private yards is on the agenda of both the Navy and defence ministry. Currently only two government yards in Mumbai and Visakhapatnam are making submarines for the Navy.

Larsen and Tubro (L&T) is believed to be the front runner after it proved its worth with the Arihant programme in which it successfully made the hull of the first nuclear-powered submarine "INS Arihant". L&T yard in Gujarat is understood to have made the second nuclear-powered submarine as well.

"L&T has demonstrated its capability. It has technical expertise and manpower. It is not yet a full shipyard, which may take a few years to complete. But the company wants to know from the government about its role in naval ship and submarine building plans before it makes the necessary investment," sources said.

Navy's ageing submarine fleet is depleting fast. Navy has 11 operational submarines out of which 4-5 remain at shipyards at any given point of time for maintenance leaving only half-a dozen for operational purposes.

The first batch of new submarines (Project-75) is delayed by three years. The first Scorpene submarine being manufactured at Mazgaon Dock Ltd in Mumbai will be ready by 2015 and the entire fleet of six submarines should be inducted by 2018. The future of the second assembly line (Project-75 I) hangs in balance. After receiving initial approval from the defence ministry in 2010, the P-75 I is stuck due to an improvisation made by the Navy in the original proposal.

To reduce delivery time, the Navy proposed to make first two submarines in P-75 I on the yard of foreign collaborator and the remaining four on Indian yards.

However, the defence ministry threw a spanner arguing manufacturing submarines on foreign yards could not come in the category of "indigenous production" and the proposal has to be processed again from scratch.

"The tender formulation for the P-75 I is ready. We want government's approval for initiating the tender. We want to avoid a single vendor situation," said Navy Chief Admiral Nirmal Verma.

:: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::

 

[Kunal Biswas]

 

[drkrn]

whats this?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

whats this?

Parts of Hull..

 

[p2prada]

Nuclear submarines are nosier than diesel electric subs because of coolant pumps used to stabilize the reactor in nuclear submarines.

However nuclear submarines are much larger and heavier, faster, go deeper, carry more personnel, more weapons and electronics and have near unlimited endurance(food and other supplies are needed, not fuel).

Outside of AIP, diesel electrics have limited endurance and very low speeds. As in they can move at top speeds only for a few hours and then will have to surface. At low speeds of 3-4 Knots, they can remain submerged for at least 2-3 weeks with AIP, a few days without AIP.

However since SSKs are smaller and have less displacement, they work great in shallow areas due to their lower acoustic signatures. So for regions like the Arabian sea and the Bay of Bengal, SSKs are the better bet while we will need heavier SSNs for travelling the oceans. You can't expect to have SSK operations in the Pacific Ocean and hence boils down to requirements.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

How old this info is ?

US relay on Nuclear subs and if this flaw is still serious as the author talks about, USN would not operate Nuclear subs today..

That piece of information is too old to take into account in today`s technology for Nuclear Subs..

 

[p2prada]

How old this info is ?

US relay on Nuclear subs and if this flaw is still serious as the author talks about, USN would not operate Nuclear subs today..

It is not a flaw, it is mere physics. Coolant pumps will make noise. Even minuscule noise is noise. Other than that SSNs are two to three times bigger than SSKs. So, it is obvious the acoustic signatures of a SSK is lower than a SSN.

That piece of information is too old to take into account in today`s technology for Nuclear Subs..

If there is something that can shut out noise from coolant pumps, then you can only imagine how much quieter a SSK can be with similar levels of technology. Current SSK designs provide as much flexibility as SSNs due to AIP in a theatre.

The reason why US cannot employ SSKs is because they have no reason to use them close to their coasts. They need SSNs with unlimited ranges as their points of interests are half a world away.

The logic is simple, SSKs in littoral waters and SSNs in the deep. Size matters too.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

it is obvious the acoustic signatures of a SSK is lower than a SSN.

Means SSN are louder than SSK, In terms acoustic signatures ? Highly doubtful..

If there is something that can shut out noise from coolant pumps, then you can only imagine how much quieter a SSK can be with similar levels of technology. Current SSK designs provide as much flexibility as SSNs due to AIP in a theatre.

Unnecessary increasing weight, slowing down sub or drain more power underwater...