Project-75I class SSK Submarines

[johnj]

What is it that had pissed the Modi govt against the French. The German and American defence ministers almost at the same time in Delhi points to a bigger game , are we collaborating with Israel to manufacture Dolphin 2 in India .

What about the scorpene line and why again tie up MDL . L& T katupally is begging for conventional sub orders.

Israel don't make Dolphin sub, its manufactured by Germans, with German subsidized for Israel, also it don't meet IN requirements. Germany offering type216 to IN and dolphin is based on type209 and 212. There is no way German sharing classified Israel and German tech to India, they only offering downgraded version of type 212 and type 212 more advanced sub than dolphin2.
Scropene sub - data leak, low tech sharing, cost overrun, expensive, now lacks advanced torpedoes.

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

What is it that had pissed the Modi govt against the French. The German and American defence ministers almost at the same time in Delhi points to a bigger game , are we collaborating with Israel to manufacture Dolphin 2 in India .

What about the scorpene line and why again tie up MDL . L& T katupally is begging for conventional sub orders.

Naval Group has been notorious with Transfer of Technology especially with the Scorpene class of submarines.
I remember there was a report in which the MD of Mazgaon dock has stated post INS Kalvari, they were able to build the submarines on their own and they did not need the "know-how" assistance, but the "know-why" aspect was severely lacking.
The Naval Group personnel would be present on the sub during firing trials to monitor them as part of compliance, but the test data was never shared with MDL or the Navy.
Another point is that the indigenous content is pretty low, less than 40% of the sub is indigenous.

 

[Azaad]

Naval Group has been notorious with Transfer of Technology especially with the Scorpene class of submarines.
I remember there was a report in which the MD of Mazgaon dock has stated post INS Kalvari, they were able to build the submarines on their own and they did not need the "know-how" assistance, but the "know-why" aspect was severely lacking.
The Naval Group personnel would be present on the sub during firing trials to monitor them as part of compliance, but the test data was never shared with MDL or the Navy.
Another point is that the indigenous content is pretty low, less than 40% of the sub is indigenous.
View attachment 209409

Another factor is , as part of the agreement there were offsets wherein Naval Group ( NG) was supposed to whet local vendors for ToT of sub systems which was supposed to have then been localised.

After initially agreeing to it , when they actually had to effect ToT to these local vendors they backed off , citing inability on the part of the vendors to absorb technology apart from refusing to certify the quality of the end product. Trapped the IN , MDL & MoD had no choice but to order such equipment from NG France which escalate the costs of the submarines apart from obvious delays in their completion. So yes , there's no love lost for NG within the IN , MoD & MDL.

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

Another factor is , as part of the agreement there were offsets wherein Naval Group ( NG) was supposed to whet local vendors for ToT of sub systems which was supposed to have then been localised.

After initially agreeing to it , when they actually had to effect ToT to these local vendors they backed off , citing inability on the part of the vendors to absorb technology apart from refusing to certify the quality of the end product. Trapped the IN , MDL & MoD had no choice but to order such equipment from NG France which escalate the costs of the submarines apart from obvious delays in their completion. So yes , there's no love lost for NG within the IN , MoD & MDL.

Exactly, also if you remember, INS Khanderi reported a slew of problems when it put through during sea trials.
Naval Group was liable to deliver a fully functioning submarine which it obviously didn't.

Navy finds defects in Scorpene submarine; one more year of delay

www.ajaishukla.com

 

[johnj]

Exactly, also if you remember, INS Khanderi reported a slew of problems when it put through during sea trials.
Naval Group was liable to deliver a fully functioning submarine which it obviously didn't.

Navy finds defects in Scorpene submarine; one more year of delay

www.ajaishukla.com

German type 214 also having similar issues in early stages, both Greece and SK found issues with German subs, which is ratified in later stages, SK took full advantages of the situation and asked a major portion of tech.
link- Navy's newest submarine 'underperformance' - a major topic during that period
Submarines: Type 214 Stumbles Into Greece
Maybe these issue forced pak to terminate type214 purchase and Israel ordered additional type 209 improved during that time.
Both type 214 and Indian scorpene faced a lots of issues in initial stages, but data leakage, low tech transfer & expensive modification made Indian scorpene a bad deal.

 

[jai jaganath]

 

[jai jaganath]

 

[AnantS]

 

[Fatalis]

L&T and Navantia to jointly bid for Rs45,000 crore submarine deal - ET Infra

The Larsen & Toubro - Navantia partnership will compete with a tie-up between India’s state-run defence shipbuilder Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Ltd and Germany's ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems GmbH (TKMS) for the submarine project named P75 (India) or P75 (I).

infra.economictimes.indiatimes.com

This is new. Looks like SK has also pulled out.

 

[johnj]

L&T and Navantia to jointly bid for Rs45,000 crore submarine deal - ET Infra

The Larsen & Toubro - Navantia partnership will compete with a tie-up between India’s state-run defence shipbuilder Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Ltd and Germany's ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems GmbH (TKMS) for the submarine project named P75 (India) or P75 (I).

infra.economictimes.indiatimes.com

This is new. Looks like SK has also pulled out.

I wonder why IN need a foreign AIP when DRDO AIP is available ?
SK sub using German tech, if Thyssenkrupp Marine Systems in then less chances for SK.
when GoI eliminated HSL, Russia is out. French stuck with a lots of issues. Japan not in the race due to highly classified tech and huge cost of their subs

 

[Fatalis]

I don't know for sure but there exists a possibility that government will interfere and ask both L1 and L2 to build the subs with L1 building 4 and L2 building the other 2.

 

[BON PLAN]

Israel don't make Dolphin sub, its manufactured by Germans, with German subsidized for Israel, also it don't meet IN requirements. Germany offering type216 to IN and dolphin is based on type209 and 212. There is no way German sharing classified Israel and German tech to India, they only offering downgraded version of type 212 and type 212 more advanced sub than dolphin2.
Scropene sub - data leak, low tech sharing, cost overrun, expensive, now lacks advanced torpedoes.

The leaks was only about marketing datas. Already said 1000 times.
Low tech sharing? Source please? There was a contract and there was no complain about a hiatus.
Cost overrun? source?
Expensive? Do you want to compare with your S80, built on Scorpene datas (nearly stolen...) and finished with the US help because Navantia failed totally ?
No torpedoes : ask India's top brass.

 

[BON PLAN]

Exactly, also if you remember, INS Khanderi reported a slew of problems when it put through during sea trials.
Naval Group was liable to deliver a fully functioning submarine which it obviously didn't.

Navy finds defects in Scorpene submarine; one more year of delay

www.ajaishukla.com

It's not a Naval Group made sub. It's an indian product built with some french key components.
So ask Mazagon.

 

[Blademaster]

It's not a Naval Group made sub. It's an indian product built with some french key components.
So ask Mazagon.

If that's the attitude of your brethren, no wonder why IN does not want any more Scorpenes.

 

[BON PLAN]

If that's the attitude of your brethren, no wonder why IN does not want any more Scorpenes.

Not sure of that.
The list of IN wishes, by priority :
1) SSN
2) SSK with AIP and cruise missile
3) SSK

but India only have money for option 3.....

 

[Fatalis]

 

[Azaad]

If Navantia wins , IN can kiss their arses good bye. The Spaniards have botched the Navantia program in ways that'd make Paxtan proud. Which can only mean they're there to make up the numbers for MoD to enable this tender to go thru .

From this development , however , Two things are clear namely , IN won't touch Naval Group with a barge pole & DSME either isn't interested in participating or haven't been qualified given the reports coming out of Indonesia on how they haven't been able to commission the subs there with TKMS refusing to co operate & worse either suing DSME for breach of IPR or threatening to do so . @BON PLAN

 

[BON PLAN]

S80.... are you serious ?
It is late, over weighted, over budget and with a US weapon system.....

All other proposal is better.

 

[Blademaster]

If Navantia wins , IN can kiss their arses good bye. The Spaniards have botched the Navantia program in ways that'd make Paxtan proud. Which can only mean they're there to make up the numbers for MoD to enable this tender to go thru .

From this development , however , Two things are clear namely , IN won't touch Naval Group with a barge pole & DSME either isn't interested in participating or haven't been qualified given the reports coming out of Indonesia on how they haven't been able to commission the subs there with TKMS refusing to co operate & worse either suing DSME for breach of IPR or threatening to do so . @BON PLAN

Who is DSME and TKMS?

 

[Azaad]

Who is DSME and TKMS?

Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering Co Ltd & Thyssen Krupp Marine Systems.