Project- 75(I). Next gen subs. RFP issued

Arjun Mk1A

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I don't understand why govt stressing on foreign vendors must offer Air Independent Propulsion (AIP).
DRDO already developing AIP for subs and it will be installed in all submarines by 2024-25.
Why can't we install our AIP in foreign subs? or our babus underestimate DRDO.

Still a mystery to me. Initially DRDO said they are ready to upgrade the Kalvari class with AIP but suddenly this project went down and now we are hearing they will get AIP in 1st refit. Either Navy should tell whether DRDO AIP ready or not. Also Navy agreed to transfer Kilo class sub for AIP testing. If navy is already on board with DRDO AIP then they can modify P75I RFI with some changes. (Provision for integration of AIP in future)

Looks the deal is becoming too muddy.
 

Wisemarko

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Still a mystery to me. Initially DRDO said they are ready to upgrade the Kalvari class with AIP but suddenly this project went down and now we are hearing they will get AIP in 1st refit. Either Navy should tell whether DRDO AIP ready or not. Also Navy agreed to transfer Kilo class sub for AIP testing. If navy is already on board with DRDO AIP then they can modify P75I RFI with some changes. (Provision for integration of AIP in future)

Looks the deal is becoming too muddy.
Here's an excerpt from RAN officer to Jane's:

"An air-independent propulsion (AIP) system will not be installed in the Royal Australian Navy's (RAN's) six Collins-class submarines as part of their future ‘Life-of-Type Extension (LOTE)' programme, Commodore Tom Phillips, the RAN's Director-General of Submarines, disclosed on 9 November.

Addressing a conference in Adelaide organised by the Submarine Institute of Australia, Cdre Phillips said such a system works well for countries that deploy submarines for short distances to their operational areas.

However, “If you put AIP into a [conventionally-powered] submarine, you necessarily either make the submarine larger, which reduces range and endurance, or you keep the submarine the same size and reduce battery and fuel capacity, which again affects endurance and range”, he noted. Temperature also affects the AIP performance. Warmer weather (>30C water temperature) leads to reduced AIP range to few days instead of 2 weeks."
 

Javelin_Sam

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I don't understand why govt stressing on foreign vendors must offer Air Independent Propulsion (AIP).
DRDO already developing AIP for subs and it will be installed in all submarines by 2024-25.
Why can't we install our AIP in foreign subs? or our babus underestimate DRDO.
The AIP developed so far is a miniature prototype. A larger one to meet the power requirements is getting ready to fabricate or under fabrication. Navy has offered a recently retired Kilo class submarine to cut open it and install a plug to fit AIP. This then need to be tested. Anyone can guess the stringent requirements from operational and safety pov for a system that goes into a submarine. It will take time. DRDO AIP has still a long way to go before getting into a fleet submarine.
 

Super falcon

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I don't understand why govt stressing on foreign vendors must offer Air Independent Propulsion (AIP).
DRDO already developing AIP for subs and it will be installed in all submarines by 2024-25.
Why can't we install our AIP in foreign subs? or our babus underestimate DRDO.
Definitely if you order Korea. Subs they definitely allow DRDO AIP installation on these subs
 

WolfPack86

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MOD ALLOWS CHANGES IN NAVY'S $7 BILLION SUBMARINE TENDER, NO CHANGE IN CAPABILITY REQUIREMENTS
New Delhi:
Clearing roadblocks for taking forward the $7 billion deal for building six new submarines for the Indian Navy, the Defence Ministry has given its approval for amendments in the ongoing tender that would allow the project to move forward.


Along with the approvals taken in terms and conditions for the programme, the Indian Navy has given a commitment to the Prime Minister’s Office (PMO) and the National Security Council Secretariat (NSCS) that the next line of submarines would be designed in India and would be cleared for exports too.

“The approvals for amendments to the ongoing tender were given in a high-level defence ministry meeting held recently. These would allow the tender to move forward for indigenous submarine construction,” government sources told ANI.

The qualitative requirements of the program have not been changed and would continue to remain so in future, the sources clarified.

As per sources, the Defence Ministry had received a proposal for the removal of the clause for “joint and severe liability” from the tender.

The Defence Ministry had also taken “proper and detailed” legal advice before finalising the changes to the tender.

As per the defence acquisition procedure in India, for any changes to be made in the ongoing tenders, approval has to be taken from the Defence Ministry only.

The tender for six new submarines named Project 75 India is being processed under the Strategic Partnership policy as per which the boats would be constructed jointly by a foreign vendor in tie up with an Indian firm. The foreign partner would be known as the collaborator or supporter while the Indian partner would be known as the strategic partner.

As per the proposal considered by the Defence Ministry, the Strategic Partner would be held responsible for its work share whereas earlier this responsibility was also to be taken by the foreign partner.

The foreign partner would now be responsible and liable only for its share of work in the project.

There is also a plan for signing a government-to-government contract with the country of the foreign partner selected as the lowest bidder in the program, the sources said.

The Navy under Project-75 India had planned to involve vendors from France, Russia, Germany, Spain and South Korea to be involved along with Indian shipyards Larsen and Toubro and government-owned Mazagon Dockyards Limited.

However, the stringent requirements mainly related to the need for having a proven Air Independent Propulsion system which allows the submarines to stay underwater for over two weeks at a stretch resulted in the ouster of three of the foreign vendors.

The vendors had argued that at the time of construction of the boats, they would be able to provide required solutions but the Navy insisted that they want a proven and an ‘in service’ solution and not an under development one, sources said.

The Navy, sources said, has made it clear that it would not approve of any changes in the tender which would compromise its qualitative requirements.

At the moment, the Navy is talking to German and South Korean firms while a Spanish shipyard is also expected shortly to give presentations on its capabilities.

The tender would give a major push to make in India in defence as more than 60 per cent of the worth of the project is going to be invested in the Indian industry only.
 

BON PLAN

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Are you saying Rafale is using commercial civilian grade components?

I don't know if you are aware when you procure specialized material developed or manufacturer by US companies you have to take undertaking for what purpose the material is used.
If it is for aerospace, defense or strategic application their is an entire different procedure for procurement.
This is one of the way US enforces ITAR compliance.

Software used on aircraft (e.g. mission computer, etc.) are also classified ITAR component.
I just say the components (civilian or not) used on Rafale are ITAR free. I had confirmation saturday evening after a diner with a Dassault purchaser (the son of a friend of mine).

Software : not a single software embarqued on the Rafale is a US one.
 

Aniruddha Mulay

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The AIP developed so far is a miniature prototype. A larger one to meet the power requirements is getting ready to fabricate or under fabrication. Navy has offered a recently retired Kilo class submarine to cut open it and install a plug to fit AIP. This then need to be tested. Anyone can guess the stringent requirements from operational and safety pov for a system that goes into a submarine. It will take time. DRDO AIP has still a long way to go before getting into a fleet submarine.
It has already been built
 

Javelin_Sam

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It has already been built
The one already built is the land based prototype. The one thats to be fitted to the Kalvari in 2025 is under construction. It then needs to go out in sea for further trials. Trials will last an year or two atleast. That is around 2027. Which OEM or Indian partner will sign on a 7 Billion dollar submarine deal with AIP when the same will only get post trial clearance in another 5 years?
 

Abhijeet Dey

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German comeback in P-75I to boost Indian Navy's tender: Germany to offer Type 212CD submarine for the tender


The submarines will be based on, but nearly twice the size of the current Type 212A class and features a new stealth design - the hull will be diamond-shaped to deflect emissions by the active sonars common on modern anti-submarine warfare (ASW) ships.

New German and Norwegian Type-212CD submarines
 

Dark Sorrow

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I just say the components (civilian or not) used on Rafale are ITAR free. I had confirmation saturday evening after a diner with a Dassault purchaser (the son of a friend of mine).
Only commercial civilian grade components are ITAR free and even after that one has to sign an undertaking that they will not be exported to countries like Iran, NK, etc. and would not be used in Defense application in which case seller will not be liable.
Software : not a single software embarqued on the Rafale is a US one.
The entire mission computer software is developed using Ansys SCADE and is fielding vxWorks RTOS.
 

Wisemarko

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German comeback in P-75I to boost Indian Navy's tender: Germany to offer Type 212CD submarine for the tender


The submarines will be based on, but nearly twice the size of the current Type 212A class and features a new stealth design - the hull will be diamond-shaped to deflect emissions by the active sonars common on modern anti-submarine warfare (ASW) ships.

New German and Norwegian Type-212CD submarines
None of the diesel submarines impress me honestly. They look cool on paper and probably could claim a silent hit in exercises but in reality, they will never make a dent in outcome of a war. They can’t reach the operational area on time or without being detected. They can’t dive deep enough nor can ever outrun its predators. A billion dollar sitting duck. I don’t always do submarines but when I do, it’s SSN.
 

Dark Sorrow

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None of the diesel submarines impress me honestly. They look cool on paper and probably could claim a silent hit in exercises but in reality, they will never make it to the operational area on time or without being detected.
Diesel-Electric submarines will be extremely effective in case of India-Pakistan scenario. Sea is not much deep, geographical proximity is low and with the amount of surveillance and monitoring stealth of Diesel-Electric submarines is paramount.
 

Wisemarko

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Diesel-Electric submarines will be extremely effective in case of India-Pakistan scenario. Sea is not much deep, geographical proximity is low and with the amount of surveillance and monitoring stealth of Diesel-Electric submarines is paramount.
You gonna f$&k those guys up good with or without subs anyway. May be UUWV is all you need in those shallow waters for surveillance.
 

Dark Sorrow

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You gonna f$&k those guys up good with or without subs anyway. May be UUWV is all you need in those shallow waters for surveillance.
Lets not things for granted.
We can take on PN and PAF is because of the combined effort of all branches of IN.
Their is no one single wonder weapon.
PN is arming itself to the teeth with some potent platform
  1. Hangor-class submarine
  2. Zulfiquar-class frigate
  3. Tughril-class frigate
  4. Sea Sultan ASW
  5. Jinnah-class frigate (in-future)
Submarines are one field where IN lacked traditionally.
If we have to keep our edge over PN we need to invest more on IN and acquire more cutting edge platforms.

Nothing in life is permanent except change.
 

BON PLAN

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Only commercial civilian grade components are ITAR free and even after that one has to sign an undertaking that they will not be exported to countries like Iran, NK, etc. and would not be used in Defense application in which case seller will not be liable.

The entire mission computer software is developed using Ansys SCADE and is fielding vxWorks RTOS.
The software may have been developed using some US tool, but the software itself is french to avoid hack.
As all the civilian Boeing are developped using the french catia software, but they are american product.
 

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