Project- 75(I). Next gen subs. RFP issued

BON PLAN

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Auxiliary power units, lighting systems, fuel nozzles, wheel brakes and brake controls, transducer, electro-optical and passive electronic components, cabin systems, canopies, fuel tank sealants, corrosion inhibitors, and various mechanical and electrical power systems were all supplied by American companies.

Before selling SCALP missiles to Egypt, the French government must obtain US approval, Eric Trappier, chairman and CEO of Dassault Aviation was reported as saying on the Rafale deal. The long-range weapon’s ability to function is dependent on certain US parts.

Semiconductor components and software components.
False.

Auxiliary power unit is french : Rubis 3 from Microturbo. https://www.safran-group.com/fr/produits-services/groupe-puissance-auxiliaire-rubis-3
Lighting system : are you mad? (do you really imagine french industry unable to produce lights ?)
Fuel nozzles are made by a sub contractor of SAFRAN, on SAFRAN drawings.
Wheel brakes and brake control : made by SAFRAN Landing System. https://www.safran-group.com/fr/pro...issage-principaux-du-rafale-dassault-aviation
Electro optical whole system, OSF, is made by Thales.
Electronic component : Maybe, but none is ITAR
Canopy : made in France, by Dassault itself, in its Poitiers factory.
Software : stop pulling my leg bro (and just for you : LM and Boeing used the so french software CATIA ....)
etc....

Rafale is ITAR free.


You are right only about SCALP : older SCALP used an ITAR component. Since replaced by a french one, allowing the delivery to Egypt
 

Dark Sorrow

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Not as per French Armed Forces Minister Florence Parly who stated in response: “We are at the mercy of the Americans when our equipment is concerned.”
What about the sub-assemblies and components used to manufacture it.
Lighting system : are you mad? (do you really imagine french industry unable to produce lights ?)
I don't know what french industry is able to produce or not.
The article mentions Lighting systems were imported
Electro optical whole system, OSF, is made by Thales.
Isn't the imaging sensors and semiconductor products purchased from US.
Software : stop pulling my leg bro (and just for you : LM and Boeing used the so french software CATIA ....)
etc....
And French use American software too e.g. Ansys SCADE Suite, VxWorks, Matlab/Simulink for mission computer. This one actually matters ad it needs license agreement for every production aircraft.
Ansys suite and Comsol simulation suite for engine study, aerodynamic analysis and general aircraft study.
Labview based systems for testing and analysis.
And the list goes on.
Rafale is ITAR free.
Do you have any source to backup your claim.
You are right only about SCALP : older SCALP used an ITAR component. Since replaced by a french one, allowing the delivery to Egypt
SCALP still uses GPS, semiconductor components from US.
I am being told the thermographic camera is also imported from US.





 

BON PLAN

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Not as per French Armed Forces Minister Florence Parly who stated in response: “We are at the mercy of the Americans when our equipment is concerned.”

What about the sub-assemblies and components used to manufacture it.

I don't know what french industry is able to produce or not.
The article mentions Lighting systems were imported

Isn't the imaging sensors and semiconductor products purchased from US.

And French use American software too e.g. Ansys SCADE Suite, VxWorks, Matlab/Simulink for mission computer. This one actually matters ad it needs license agreement for every production aircraft.
Ansys suite and Comsol simulation suite for engine study, aerodynamic analysis and general aircraft study.
Labview based systems for testing and analysis.
And the list goes on.

Do you have any source to backup your claim.

SCALP still uses GPS, semiconductor components from US.
I am being told the thermographic camera is also imported from US.





All the "article" is about the SCALP.
The sole ITAR component was removed years ago.

The frech DM only spoke of this specific weapon.

Sub assembly? Maybe you can find some components of US origin. And some sub components of them probably coming from China...

No imaging sensor coming from USA. We are totally integrated on these.

Rafale ITAR free? Just ask you why the SCALP was blocked in Egypt and not Rafale (ordered twice).
 

Dark Sorrow

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Rafale ITAR free? Just ask you why the SCALP was blocked in Egypt and not Rafale (ordered twice).
US had problem with EAF possessing stand-off weapons. US doesn't have EAF buying shiny new jets.
If US had problem with EAF having advanced jets, Tejas would never have been offered.
 

Dark Sorrow

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All the "article" is about the SCALP.
The sole ITAR component was removed years ago.

The frech DM only spoke of this specific weapon.
Do you have any creditable source to back this up stating Rafale free from US components.
Sub assembly? Maybe you can find some components of US origin. And some sub components of them probably coming from China...
And these countries can block such sub-assemblies or cause other problems.
No imaging sensor coming from USA. We are totally integrated on these.
Do you have source confirm the same. I have been informed that OSF uses American imaging sensor.

You have totally skipped about semiconductor, electronic components and system software.
 

BON PLAN

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Do you have source confirm the same. I have been informed that OSF uses American imaging sensor.
You have totally skipped about semiconductor, electronic components and system software.
Yes I have :


this part :
Capture.PNG


In english : An IR channel (in a ball shape) for a search and track imagery. It use the 3-5 and 8-12µm wave length and has a 100km range. It is built by SAFRAN Electronics & Defense
 

BON PLAN

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You have totally skipped about semiconductor, electronic components and system software.
Yes, Rafale may use semiconductors and electronic components from USA, as F35 uses tyres from Michelin.
Software? not aboard the bird. Sure not. We are too worried about hacking, a US specialty thanks to NSA....
 

Super falcon

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USA subs are very expensive and they never transfer any tech of subs to any one so buying us subs is useless
Right now south Korean subs are best option and India can get them on time and they can fire indian hypersonic brhamos 2 missiles with various modification onboard ballistic missiles cells
 

Super falcon

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P 75I will never be solved because Indian Navy understand a new project require govt approval which takes decades so get what is on the table for time being
 

Super falcon

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South Korean submarines can do wonders for India they are intended to counter Chinese yuan and japanese soryu class submarines
 

Dark Sorrow

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I never wrote Rafale is free of US component. I wrote it is free of ITAR component. Not the same thing
Are you saying Rafale is using commercial civilian grade components?

I don't know if you are aware when you procure specialized material developed or manufacturer by US companies you have to take undertaking for what purpose the material is used.
If it is for aerospace, defense or strategic application their is an entire different procedure for procurement.
This is one of the way US enforces ITAR compliance.

Software used on aircraft (e.g. mission computer, etc.) are also classified ITAR component.
 

Dark Sorrow

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Yes, Rafale may use semiconductors and electronic components from USA, as F35 uses tyres from Michelin.
Software? not aboard the bird. Sure not. We are too worried about hacking, a US specialty thanks to NSA....
You are comparing semiconductor and electronic components with tyres.👍
BTW the tyres for F-35 are also made by Britain’s Dunlop Aircraft Tyres Ltd. and Goodyear
Tyres their are alternatives but for semiconductor and software their are not.

As for software Rafale uses vxWorks RTOS and its software is written using Ansys SCADE.
This is for the mission computer. This is documented.

Don't know about other systems but I speculate same software must have been used elsewhere.


Rafale is not a general purpose computer where one can put in malicious code and gain access to system or data.
If Dassault can't control control its communication channels then their is something wrong with their development.
Most of the software are distributed in their source code form and not as binaries.

I assume you are not from electronic science or computer science field hence this confusion.
 

MonaLazy

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Def Min allows changes in Navy's $7 billion submarine tender, no change in capability requirements
ANI | Updated: Aug 06, 2022 16:23 IST

New Delhi (India), August 6 (ANI): Clearing roadblocks for taking forward the $7 billion deal for building six new submarines for the Indian Navy, the Defence Ministry has given its approval for amendments in the ongoing tender that would allow the project to move forward.
Along with the approvals taken in terms and conditions for the programme, the Indian Navy has given a commitment to the Prime Minister's Office (PMO) and the National Security Council Secretariat (NSCS) that the next line of submarines would be designed in India and would be cleared for exports too.
"The approvals for amendments to the ongoing tender were given in a high-level defence ministry meeting held recently. These would allow the tender to move forward for indigenous submarine construction," government sources told ANI.
The qualitative requirements of the programme have not been changed and would continue to remain so in future, the sources clarified.
As per sources, the Defence Ministry had received a proposal for the removal of the clause for "joint and severe liability" from the tender.
The Defence Ministry had also taken "proper and detailed" legal advice before finalising the changes to the tender.
As per the defence acquisition procedure in India, for any changes to be made in the ongoing tenders, approval has to be taken from the Defence Ministry only.
The tender for six new submarines named Project 75 India is being processed under the Strategic Partnership policy as per which the boats would be constructed jointly by a foreign vendor in tie up with an Indian firm. The foreign partner would be known as the collaborator or supporter while the Indian partner would be known as the strategic partner.
As per the proposal considered by the Defence Ministry, the Strategic Partner would be held responsible for its work share whereas earlier this responsibility was also to be taken by the foreign partner.
The foreign partner would now be responsible and liable only for its share of work in the project.
There is also a plan for signing a government-to-government contract with the country of the foreign partner selected as the lowest bidder in the programme, the sources said.

The Navy under Project-75 India had planned to involve vendors from France, Russia, Germany, Spain and South Korea to be involved along with Indian shipyards Larsen and Toubro and government-owned Mazagon Dockyards Limited.
However, the stringent requirements mainly related to the need for having a proven Air Independent Propulsion system which allows the submarines to stay underwater for over two weeks at a stretch resulted in the ouster of three of the foreign vendors.
The vendors had argued that at the time of construction of the boats, they would be able to provide required solutions but the Navy insisted that they want a proven and an 'in service' solution and not an under development one, sources said.
The Navy, sources said, has made it clear that it would not approve of any changes in the tender which would compromise its qualitative requirements.
At the moment, the Navy is talking to German and South Korean firms while a Spanish shipyard is also expected shortly to give presentations on its capabilities.
The tender would give a major push to make in India in defence as more than 60 per cent of the worth of the project is going to be invested in the Indian industry only. (ANI)


A sensible & probably the only thing that would have salvaged a floundering P75I.
 

IndianHawk

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Def Min allows changes in Navy's $7 billion submarine tender, no change in capability requirements
ANI | Updated: Aug 06, 2022 16:23 IST

New Delhi (India), August 6 (ANI): Clearing roadblocks for taking forward the $7 billion deal for building six new submarines for the Indian Navy, the Defence Ministry has given its approval for amendments in the ongoing tender that would allow the project to move forward.
Along with the approvals taken in terms and conditions for the programme, the Indian Navy has given a commitment to the Prime Minister's Office (PMO) and the National Security Council Secretariat (NSCS) that the next line of submarines would be designed in India and would be cleared for exports too.
"The approvals for amendments to the ongoing tender were given in a high-level defence ministry meeting held recently. These would allow the tender to move forward for indigenous submarine construction," government sources told ANI.
The qualitative requirements of the programme have not been changed and would continue to remain so in future, the sources clarified.
As per sources, the Defence Ministry had received a proposal for the removal of the clause for "joint and severe liability" from the tender.
The Defence Ministry had also taken "proper and detailed" legal advice before finalising the changes to the tender.
As per the defence acquisition procedure in India, for any changes to be made in the ongoing tenders, approval has to be taken from the Defence Ministry only.
The tender for six new submarines named Project 75 India is being processed under the Strategic Partnership policy as per which the boats would be constructed jointly by a foreign vendor in tie up with an Indian firm. The foreign partner would be known as the collaborator or supporter while the Indian partner would be known as the strategic partner.
As per the proposal considered by the Defence Ministry, the Strategic Partner would be held responsible for its work share whereas earlier this responsibility was also to be taken by the foreign partner.
The foreign partner would now be responsible and liable only for its share of work in the project.
There is also a plan for signing a government-to-government contract with the country of the foreign partner selected as the lowest bidder in the programme, the sources said.

The Navy under Project-75 India had planned to involve vendors from France, Russia, Germany, Spain and South Korea to be involved along with Indian shipyards Larsen and Toubro and government-owned Mazagon Dockyards Limited.
However, the stringent requirements mainly related to the need for having a proven Air Independent Propulsion system which allows the submarines to stay underwater for over two weeks at a stretch resulted in the ouster of three of the foreign vendors.
The vendors had argued that at the time of construction of the boats, they would be able to provide required solutions but the Navy insisted that they want a proven and an 'in service' solution and not an under development one, sources said.
The Navy, sources said, has made it clear that it would not approve of any changes in the tender which would compromise its qualitative requirements.
At the moment, the Navy is talking to German and South Korean firms while a Spanish shipyard is also expected shortly to give presentations on its capabilities.
The tender would give a major push to make in India in defence as more than 60 per cent of the worth of the project is going to be invested in the Indian industry only. (ANI)


A sensible & probably the only thing that would have salvaged a floundering P75I.
Changes are clearly directed at getting Germans back in game.
 

MonaLazy

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Changes are clearly directed at getting Germans back in game.
With the foreign OEM also bearing the burden of responsibility for local partner I doubt anyone- Koreans included would be interested. Just like the 126 Rafale MMRCA collapsed when GoI wanted DA to guarantee workmanship at HAL.

Germans have any operational AIP? I think this is going to ease & speed up the process for KSS-III to come in probably in a G2G deal. Whoever the chosen vendor is will have to ensure deep transfer of know-how and know-why so next line of conventional subs are designed in India.


South Korean KSS-III now leading Indian Navy next gen submarine competition (P-75I).
 
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IndianHawk

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With the foreign OEM also bearing the burden of responsibility for local partner I doubt anyone- Koreans included would be interested. Just like the 126 Rafale MMRCA died when GoI wanted DA to guarantee workmanship at HAL.

Germans have any operational AIP? I think this is going to ease & speed up the process for KSS-III to come in probably in a G2G deal. Whoever the chosen vendor is will have to ensure deep transfer of know-how and know-why so next line of conventional subs are designed in India.


South Korean KSS-III now leading Indian Navy next gen submarine competition (P-75I).
Yes germany have aip by Siemens.
And Korean subs are evolution of German subs. Better go with the original.
 

Concard

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USA subs are very expensive and they never transfer any tech of subs to any one so buying us subs is useless
Right now south Korean subs are best option and India can get them on time and they can fire indian hypersonic brhamos 2 missiles with various modification onboard ballistic missiles cells
Exactly which universe are you living in? Is there a lot of opium available since Taliban took over in Pakistan?

USA only has nuclear submarines. Whether they are nuclear ballistic missile submarines or nuclear attack submarines, all their submarines are powered by nuclear propulsion. And their technology was never on sale to anyone not even to their close allies let alone India.
 

Blademaster

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Exactly which universe are you living in? Is there a lot of opium available since Taliban took over in Pakistan?

USA only has nuclear submarines. Whether they are nuclear ballistic missile submarines or nuclear attack submarines, all their submarines are powered by nuclear propulsion. And their technology was never on sale to anyone not even to their close allies let alone India.
wrong. They sold it to Britain who used it to build their own subs.
 

dfcool

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Def Min allows changes in Navy's $7 billion submarine tender, no change in capability requirements
ANI | Updated: Aug 06, 2022 16:23 IST

New Delhi (India), August 6 (ANI): Clearing roadblocks for taking forward the $7 billion deal for building six new submarines for the Indian Navy, the Defence Ministry has given its approval for amendments in the ongoing tender that would allow the project to move forward.
Along with the approvals taken in terms and conditions for the programme, the Indian Navy has given a commitment to the Prime Minister's Office (PMO) and the National Security Council Secretariat (NSCS) that the next line of submarines would be designed in India and would be cleared for exports too.
"The approvals for amendments to the ongoing tender were given in a high-level defence ministry meeting held recently. These would allow the tender to move forward for indigenous submarine construction," government sources told ANI.
The qualitative requirements of the programme have not been changed and would continue to remain so in future, the sources clarified.
As per sources, the Defence Ministry had received a proposal for the removal of the clause for "joint and severe liability" from the tender.
The Defence Ministry had also taken "proper and detailed" legal advice before finalising the changes to the tender.
As per the defence acquisition procedure in India, for any changes to be made in the ongoing tenders, approval has to be taken from the Defence Ministry only.
The tender for six new submarines named Project 75 India is being processed under the Strategic Partnership policy as per which the boats would be constructed jointly by a foreign vendor in tie up with an Indian firm. The foreign partner would be known as the collaborator or supporter while the Indian partner would be known as the strategic partner.
As per the proposal considered by the Defence Ministry, the Strategic Partner would be held responsible for its work share whereas earlier this responsibility was also to be taken by the foreign partner.
The foreign partner would now be responsible and liable only for its share of work in the project.
There is also a plan for signing a government-to-government contract with the country of the foreign partner selected as the lowest bidder in the programme, the sources said.

The Navy under Project-75 India had planned to involve vendors from France, Russia, Germany, Spain and South Korea to be involved along with Indian shipyards Larsen and Toubro and government-owned Mazagon Dockyards Limited.
However, the stringent requirements mainly related to the need for having a proven Air Independent Propulsion system which allows the submarines to stay underwater for over two weeks at a stretch resulted in the ouster of three of the foreign vendors.
The vendors had argued that at the time of construction of the boats, they would be able to provide required solutions but the Navy insisted that they want a proven and an 'in service' solution and not an under development one, sources said.
The Navy, sources said, has made it clear that it would not approve of any changes in the tender which would compromise its qualitative requirements.
At the moment, the Navy is talking to German and South Korean firms while a Spanish shipyard is also expected shortly to give presentations on its capabilities.
The tender would give a major push to make in India in defence as more than 60 per cent of the worth of the project is going to be invested in the Indian industry only. (ANI)


A sensible & probably the only thing that would have salvaged a floundering P75I.
I don't understand why govt stressing on foreign vendors must offer Air Independent Propulsion (AIP).
DRDO already developing AIP for subs and it will be installed in all submarines by 2024-25.
Why can't we install our AIP in foreign subs? or our babus underestimate DRDO.
 

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