Project-75I class SSK Submarines

[nrj]

IN & Brahmos Corp. are having two different views on Brahmos's induction it seems. Brahmos crop. is lobbying for having BrahMos pre-selected for the follow-on six SSKs. They are offering VLS solution.

IN on the other hand isn't seems to be interested in Brahmos Corp's idea to utilize the Torpedo tubes for defense & VL cells for strike. IN has few reasons to stick to this view. I mentioned this earlier -

Apart from waging submarine warfare, these six SSKs will also be required to undertake anti-ship missile strikes with cruise missiles that should be able to be launched from the SSK's torpedo tubes, AND NOT from vertical launch cells that, if installed, will unnecessarily increase the SSK's displacement with no clear operational advantages emerging.

The RFI very clearly states that these SSKs will be required to be armed with vertically-launched missiles designed to destroy hovering ASW helicopters or low-flying MR/ASW aircraft (such a system is already under development between the DRDO and RAFAEL since 2004 and its first installation will be on the ATV).

Therefore, the Navy has rightfully determined that the anti-ship/land-attack cruise missiles should be launched from the torpedo tubes, and not from vertical launch cells.

So here is situation where Brahmos Corp. will have to work on a solution to provide Torpedo launched Brahmos for IN. Now what modifications in missile or structural specifications of submarine are required is the rest story to be seen.

 

[keshtopatel]

Brahmos can be fired from Submarine 650mm/533mm tubes

And the Brahmos diameter is ....... 670mm

How you are going to fit something (bigger) 670 mm into a (smaller) 650 mm ?

You wanna create a miracle by defying the science?

4th grader would have replied promptly on above.......

 

[Kunal Biswas]

And the Brahmos diameter is ....... 670mm

How you are going to fit something (bigger) 670 mm into a (smaller) 650 mm ?

You wanna create a miracle by defying the science?

4th grader would have replied promptly on above.......

No one trying to do miracle here though everyone seems trying to wash away illusion of others..

Above all, All the links provided here says ' The JV has already directed the inquiry to the Indian Navy provide one project "Kilo" submarine for the forthcoming tests '

Its a simple idea which can be formulated by any human with half brain that It is obviously known that KILO don't have more that 650mm tubes....

Than why DRDO ask for a KILO to test Brahmos knowing the fact it have no more than 650mm tubes ??

No place for VLS..

 

[keshtopatel]

No one trying to do miracle here though everyone seems trying to wash away illusion of others..

Above all, All the links provided here says ' The JV has already directed the inquiry to the Indian Navy provide one project "Kilo" submarine for the forthcoming tests '

Its a simple idea which can be formulated by any human with half brain that It is obviously known that KILO don't have more that 650mm tubes....

Than why DRDO ask for a KILO to test Brahmos knowing the fact it have no more than 650mm tubes ??

You are further speculating the issue, without putting 2 and 2 together to get the sum of 4....

This is scientific issue.......and you are defying.........and saying 2 plus 2 is five!

Can you fit 45mm into 44 mm ¿¿¿¿¿

Reply me rationally and scientifically - I am all ears!

In the absence of above - Its all balderdash!

 

[pmaitra]

Why the cost is so high? One ohio class submarine costs 2 billion dollars and we are getting a diesel sub for 8500 crores(around 1.8 billion USD)

I think the AIP will make these submarines more potent and have a long submerged capability. Could anyone please provide more details about AIP?

 

[keshtopatel]

I think the AIP will make these submarines more potent and have a long submerged capability. Could anyone please provide more details about AIP?

Its endurance - 15 days worth, before these subs come to breath.

 

[SHASH2K2]

irrelevent to this thread hence deleting it.

 

[plugwater]

^^^Yasen class is to replace akula class. We do not need nuclear submarine.

 

[bengalraider]

A new concept by THALES from EuroNaval 2010.

DCNS concepts ships: the SMX-25

Magazine DSI

As it does for each Euronaval exhibition, DCNS presents its completed and available R&D projects, in this case the SMX-25 and the Advansea. The SMX-25 has as its goal the rapid projection into a theater of operations of a vessel which would exploit both the advantages of a submarine and those of a surface ship. Conceived to operate on the surface at 38 knots (10 knots submerged), the SMX-25 has three gas turbines and three water jets. Carrying 16 missiles, 4 heavy torpedoes and machine guns, it can fight on the surface as well as underwater, while being able to use UUVs or UAVs. A vessel able to take into account the need to act against land objectives and littoral combat, it will carry, in addition to its 27 crew members, some ten special forces, while displacing 4,850 tons submerged and 2,850 tons surfaced. With a length of 109 m (354 ft), acoustically discreet, and benefiting from stealth design, it is a vessel capable of reconnaissance as well as combat or intelligence missions. (Euronaval Stand B1)

 

[nrj]

Rosoboronexport Offers Amur-1650 Class Submarines to India

The Indian Navy, which is planning to acquire six non-nuclear submarines in a deal expected to be in the range of USD 10-12 billion, has been offer the fourth generation Amur-1650 class submarines by Russia. The proposal from Russia may include transfer-of-technology and localized production in Indian shipyards.

Facing mounting challenges posed by the modernization of Chinese and Pakistani naval capabilities, the Indian Navy is keen to boost up its undersea warfare capability.


Project 751, Indian Navy proposes an undersea force of 24 submarines by 2015. India already has 10 Kilo-class submarines and has set up a line to manufacture French Scorpene Submarines at Mazagoan docks in Mumbai, the first of these submarines are expected to roll out by 2012.

Rosoboronexport said it would bid for the tender by offering the Amur class submarines, which are an upgraded version of Indian Navy's Kilo-class submarines.

With the speed of 20 knots, the Amur is designed for both anti-submarine and anti-surface warfare. Its armaments include 16 tube launched torpedoes and also has a capability of launching cruise missiles.

Rosoboronexport officials were quoted by ITAR-TASS as saying that the submarine could be fitted with AIP fuel cells to considerably improve its submergence endurance and range. "The company will surely take part in the tender, and it will bid with its Amur 1650 non-nuclear submarine," an official said.

The Amur 1650 submarine has been developed by the Rubin Central Design Bureau of Naval Technology on the basis of the Kilo-class diesel-electric submarines, the most low-noise submarines in the world. The sonar signature level of the submarines of this class is several times lower in comparison with Kilo-class submarines. These submarines are equipped with radio-electronic weapons of the newer generation created on the basis of the latest achievements in the field of radio-electronics.

The submarine is equipped with 6 torpedo tubes and can take a crew of 35 people. Its depth of submergence is 300 metres, and its endurance is 45 days.

The Indian Navy has already sent requests for technical specifications to a number of countries including Russia, Germany, Spain and France who have already shown interest in the deal.

 

[plugwater]

France to offer bigger Scorpenes for $5 billion Indian submarine order

France will offer India a bigger version of its Scorpene conventional diesel-electric (SSK) submarine for a $5 billion (Rs 30,000 crore) contract for six submarines. This is the world's largest order for conventional submarines.

Stating this, Patrick Boissier, Chairman and CEO of French shipbuilder DCNS, confirmed that the design of the existing Scorpene submarine could be lengthened with the addition of more sections including Air Independent Propulsion (AIP).

Boissier was part of the trade delegation visiting New Delhi with French President Nicolas Sarkozy. India is already building six Scorpene submarines at the state-owned Mazagon Docks Ltd under a Rs 18,000-crore contract signed with France in 2005.

Last year, the Indian Navy sought global Requests for Information (RFIs) from global vendors for six Project 75I class submarines independent of the 2005 contract.

DCNS responded to the Navy RFI last September. Next year, the Navy is to issue its Request for Proposals (RFPs), which will define the size of the submarine and other critical parameters. Naval officials say a contract for the first P75I could be signed around 2012-13.
The Project 75I submarines are expected to be bigger than the 1800-ton Scorpene class and call for the fitment of AIP systems allowing greater underwater endurance and land-attack missiles.

Indian Navy officials say a commonality of components will mean the second line of six Scorpenes will be cheaper than any competitor, though it is unclear what the quantum of these savings will be. The first two submarines are to be built in the foreign shipyard that wins the contract, the next three at MDL and the last one at the Hindustan Shipyard Limited, recently acquired by the defence ministry.

The submarines are to be built simultaneously in India and abroad to ensure speedy induction into the fleet. This is because the Navy is faced with a fast shrinking submarine arm. It has not added a new submarine in a decade. From 18 submarines in 2000, the Navy is down to 14 and will start retiring the first of its 10 Russian-built Kilo class vessels from 2015 onwards. The Scorpene submarine programme has been delayed by four years. The first submarine is now expected to join the Navy only by 2015.

India's long-term submarine building programme, conceived in the mid-1990s, envisaged the building of 24 submarines over the next two decades.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/Story/122310/World/france-to-offer-bigger-scorpenes-for-$5-billion-indian-submarine-order.html

 

[nrj]

Modernization of the Indian Submarine Fleet
Written by Sim Tack

The world still keeps its eyes on India as one of the Asian countries that is slowly but certainly developing into a powerful player in the international community. India has been very active over the years to make sure its military development keeps pace with its economic and political evolution. For this reason the Indian fleet may play an important role in how international relations will be shaped during the next decade. While India is improving the capabilities of its surface fleet, it has not neglected its submarine fleet and seems to have clear goals and approaches them in a pragmatic way.

Summary​

The Indian navy currently maintains a submarine fleet made out of Russian and German submarines which are less technologically advanced than those of its neighbors. India has started the production of new diesel-electric submarines of the French Scorpene model. India will be building these submarines itself with the assistance of the French company DCNS. This way India will be able to transfer the necessary technology and know-how to Indian shipyards so that in the future India will be able to produce completely indigenously developed submarines. This new submarine fleet, combined with the nuclear powered SSBN and SSN submarines India is building, will put India's submarine fleet at a competitive level to operate in the Indian ocean and perhaps even as far as the South Chinese Sea if such activity would be called for.

These days the Indian submarine fleet is made up of ten Russian Kilo submarines and four German Type 209 submarines. An older obsolete submarine of the Russian Foxtrot class was taken out of service on the 1st of December. Although this fleet of submarines is perfectly capable of executing all the tasks that are desired from it, they are slightly outdated when compared to the new models that India's neighbors are building or buying. In order to keep up with these countries and in order to have a competitive submarine fleet the modernization of the submarine fleet is an important topic to the Indian navy.

India has already invested in the production of new submarines. Apart from the plans to build a fleet of nuclear-powered submarines the stress is now mostly on the construction of new diesel-electric submarines as replacement of the above mentioned submarines currently in the Indian navy. The intent of this program includes the construction of twelve modern French Scorpene class submarines in two phases, each consisting of six submarines. This construction program is being conducted in cooperation with the French company DCNS. The advantage of this cooperation is the transfer of modern technology to the Indian navy and especially the shipyards. India, as a rising power now feels a larger need to build its essential ships by itself. India has, however, no experience in the construction of submarines since in the past it has always purchased these from other countries. Through the cooperation with DCNS India is able to gain the necessary experience to build submarines on a very short notice.

One of the technologies that have reached the Indian navy through the cooperation with DCNS is that of 'Air Independent Propulsion'. This technology allows diesel-electric submarines to remain submerged for up to three weeks. The technology is currently applied in the fifth and sixth submarine of the first series of Scorpene submarines that are being built in India. The second series of six submarines will all receive the technology and eventually it will also be installed in the first four submarines of the first series when they are scheduled for maintenance. Modern Scorpene submarines combined with the Air Independent Propulsion will give India a decent diesel-electric submarine fleet that can match that of other fleets.

One could still wonder, of course, why India puts all this work in a new submarine fleet while it still has fourteen decent operational submarines. First, there are the different neighboring countries that are currently supplying their navies with modern submarines. There are Malaysia and Indonesia which already possess modern Scorpene submarines. India, as the dominant player in the Indian Ocean can not afford to fall behind if it wishes to hang on to this position. A second reason is that China continues to improve its submarine fleet that already exists mainly out of modern diesel-electric submarines. India, as a rival to China has no choice but to counter that evolution and to make sure it has a capable submarine fleet once China decides to deploy ships into the Indian Ocean. A third reason is that as a rising power with a modern navy India needs a capacity to build its own submarines, a capacity that it until now did not possess. This was also the reason for large purchases from other countries. Through the cooperation with the French company DCNS India guarantees to be able to execute this task at the current technological levels within a limited timeframe and with the ability for corrections by the French.

Apart from the diesel-electric submarines India also continues to expand its fleet of nuclear powered submarines. India now possesses its own SSBN submarine, the INS Arihant. The intent is to eventually have six of these SSBN submarines in service. Even though these SSBN submarines are mainly aimed to be used as a deterrent against Pakistan, the possibility exists for India to deploy them as far as the South Chinese Sea if the need therefore would ever arise. India also continues to build its fleet of nuclear powered attack submarines, the SSN's. During 2011 the Indian navy will receive the Russian Akula II class SSN Nerpa. This submarine will be used to provide training and experience to Indian crews until India's very own SSN submarines enter service.

Since India is capable of building her own SSBN and will soon be able to bring its very own SSN's into production, it would be able to bridge the gap that currently exists due to China's Type 091 Han class. These vessels were China's first attempt at building SSN submarines, as a consequence the technology used was outdated and the submarines were very noisy compared to modern western SSN submarines. It could be assumed that India's first class of SSN submarines will perform just as poorly as the Han class. As China hasn't started work on a new version of the Han class India will be able to reach the same level as China when it comes to SSN submarines. This would even open an opportunity for India to field a better SSN sooner than China, making India's submarine fleet more up to date and capable than China's in the future.

Source

 

[agentperry]

firrst of all the ToT, widely used by the babus and netas in india is widely misused term. the ToT in this case is not the tech of the sub but the tech nd machinary required to make them in india, if we take analogue then its like maggi giving you machines and manuals to make the maggi cakes but not the recipe of the masala or the cake. so in the end we will be just making them with little knowledge of the same. this little knowledge helps us to refit them and modify them or upgrade them. and thats all is happening since independence, else indians version of subs would have been the reality decades ago.

 

[JayATL]

do you guys take TOT into account on pricing? I would think that TOT would make a submarine acquisition much more expensive.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

do you guys take TOT into account on pricing? I would think that TOT would make a submarine acquisition much more expensive.

many times the TOT is nothing more than kits to assemble ,many think TOT means the companies come and setup full production facilities;most of the time this is not the case.

 

[plugwater]

Navy to issue Rs 50,000 crore submarine tender this year

The Navy will issue a global tender for procuring six next generation submarines worth over Rs 50,000 crore by the end of this year.
"The government has cleared Project-75 India which is the next lot of six submarines... At the moment we are going with the Request for Information (RFI) process, I hope within this year we would be able to push off the tender," Navy chief Admiral Nirmal Verma told reporters on the sidelines of a submarine seminar.

Project-75 India is a follow on of the Scorpene submarine project, six of which are being built by the Mazgaon Dockyards Limited (MDL) under a Rs 20,000 crore deal with French company DCNS.

With a depleted submarine strength, the Navy is planning to induct over 12 submarines in the next 10-12 years. The plans have also suffered a setback in view of the delays in the construction of the Scorpenes in Mumbai. Talking about the capabilities of future submarines, the Navy chief said, "It will be a different boat in the sense that we are revising its Qualitative Requirements. Along with better sensors it will also have better hiding capability, improved detection range and combat management system."

He said the navy would go for the Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) systems for the submarines, which would enhance their capability of remaining submerged in water for a longer time period. On the weapon systems to be put on the next line of under water vessels, Verma said Navy was planning to use a mix of indigenous torpedoes along with the missiles which are being deployed on the Scorpene submarines.

To a question on safety of Indian fishermen being targeted by the Sri Lankan navy, he said, "The issue was highlighted during the visit of the Sri Lankan President also. The joint working group on fisheries is supposed to address these issues and that is the way to resolve it."

He denied knowledge of any apprehensions expressed by China on India's forthcoming exercises with the navies of the US and Japan. "You have to bear in mind that it is not the first time these exercises are happening. I am not aware of any such apprehension," he said. On the annual exercise TROPEX, the Admiral said that besides elements from army and air force, the navy would also include its amphibious elements for the first time in the exercise.

"TROPEX in terms of involved expenses and platforms is the largest exercise we have. This time we have huge amphibious elements including the participation from army and the air force," he said. Indian Navy inducted its first amphibious warship INS Jalashwa from US in 2007.
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/138209/navy-issue-rs-50000-crore.html

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

why not india go for 6 akula class ssn.i am sure the russian would have no problem with it as long as the misssiles is it is indian.

 

[Adux]

I dont think there is a sub in the market which fit our need, More than 3000-4000 tons and has AIP?

 

[p2prada]

3000 to 4000 tons is too much for diesel electric SSKs.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

India to issue $11 bn tender for six more submarines

http://www.sify.com/finance/india-t...more-submarines-news-default-lcqsEijecah.html

New Delhi, Feb 16 (IANS) To shore up its depleting submarine fleet, India will this year issue a $11 billion global tender for building six more next generation vessels, navy chief Admiral Nirmal Verma said here Wednesday.

The new submarine programme, known as Project 75I, will be a follow-on to the six Scorpenes that are being built at the Mumbai-based Mazagon Docks Limited (MDL) under Project 75.

'The government has already cleared Project 75I. At the moment we are going through the process of Request For Information (RFI). I hope within this year we will be able to push the tender,' Verma said on the sidelines of a National Maritime Foundation seminar on submarines.

French firm DCNS is now executing the Project 75 Scorpene orders in collaboration with MDL at a cost of $4 billion.

The Indian Navy operates 14 diesel-electric submarines at present after it decommissioned two Foxtrot class submarines last year. Of the 14 submarines, 10 are Kilo class Soviet-origin vessels and the rest are HDW German-origin vessels.

The navy issued the RFI for Project 75I in September last year and some of the global firms that have responded to it are Russian Rosoboronexport, French DCNS/Armaris, German HDW and Spanish Navantia.

The Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) chaired by Defence Minister A.K. Antony had given a nod for Project 75I last July.

On the capabilities of the Project 75I submarines, Verma said they would have better capabilities to detect and hide from enemies and an improved combat management system, sensors and detection range.

Under Project 75I, the Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) technology will be incorporated in the submarines to increase their capability to remain submerged for longer periods of time.

India is expected to induct the 12 Project 75 and 75I submarines in the next decade-and-a-half.

The submarine induction programme of the navy has sufferred due to a three-year delay in the Scorpene project, resulting in the fast depletion of the fleet.

The 12 vessels would now be inducted one after the other over six years beginning 2012.

The vessels are part of the 30-vessel submarine induction plans of the navy that was approved early in the last decade.

The number of navy's submarines is likely to be just the half of the current 14 vessels in 2015, as most of them are aging and would be decommissioned in the next five years.

Under the plans for Project 75I, India would order two submarines from a collaborating foreign shipyard while the rest four would be built at two different Indian shipyards -- Mazagon Docks Limited and Visakhapatnam-based Hindustan Shipyard.

The navy was keen on a private domestic shipyard to tie-up with a foreign vendor for the six new submarines as it was of the view that Mazagon Docks was already 'busting at its seams' with orders and timely delivery of the second line of submarines was 'critical' to maintaining its operational readiness.

But the DAC decided otherwise, holding that the capabilities acquired by Mazagon Docks through the Scorpene project should not be wasted.