Project- 75(I). Next gen subs. RFP issued

Tridev123

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Most countries would be pretty pleased with that offer, but for India, it poses the same problem as an M-88 core'd Kaveri unless know why is also part of the deal!

By simply buying and hoarding the most powerful weapons how is India any different from Saudi Arabia? How can India ever be independent in our foreign policy and strategic affairs, a la France- if we don't possess know how to iterate the next generation of our most strategic weapons on our own?
Agree. We certainly don't want to turn into an S. Asian Saudi Arabia just because we can afford to pay for new weapons. That would be a failure of our defence strategy. And an sub optimal use of our money.

India is not an scientifically illiterate country. We have quite a good level of technical knowledge in both jet engines - turbofans and nuclear reactors. It is not that we are novices in these fields.

The possible collaboration with the French can help shorten the development cycle and plug gaps in our capability.
Both know how and know why are important to reach self sufficiency.

An technologically independent India which is not dependent on other countries for defence equipment will have more freedom to follow an independent foreign policy. Very similar to French objectives during the Cold War. A robust indigenous defence capability allowed France to look both Washington and Moscow in the eye without fear of being coerced.

There are no conflict issues between India and France and as the Indian economy expands it will be a large attractive market for French products and services. An economically powerful India backed by a strong indigenous defence capability can be a good partner of France. It will be a win-win relationship.

I hope the India - France defence relationship reaches its full potential. I believe such an development will contribute to the establishment of an multi polar world.
An objective both countries wish for.

We recognise that France is quite advanced in the nuclear submarine arena and is one of the countries which can manufacture high performance jet engines. I hope the French realise the benefits of deep technological cooperation with India.
 

Indx TechStyle

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With the unprecedent sale of SSN in Australia that breaks the rules, I see a potential deal of French SSN Baraccuda to India.
P75I may become P75I-N : Indian-Nuclear....

edit : Grilled by @Gessler for 1 single minute :clap2:
Yes it may be , then probably india will cancel its own ssn programme
NO.
It's in the indian interest to developp a fully indigene SSN, along a foreign one.
That's a different project called Project-Alpha to build SSNs.

P-75 and P-75I: Build SSKs in India based on foreign design.
P-76: Build Indian designed SSKs in Indian shipyards to gain final self-sufficiency from the experience earned..
P-75A: Build Indian indigenous SSNs.
 

MonaLazy

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That's a different project called Project-Alpha to build SSNs.

P-75 and P-75I: Build SSKs in India based on foreign design.
P-76: Build Indian designed SSKs in Indian shipyards to gain final self-sufficiency from the experience earned..
P-75A: Build Indian indigenous SSNs.
Is there anything other than AIP that P-75I adds over P-75? When the scorpenes have AIP installed in MLU doesn't that make them P-75I spec?

Oz changed their SSK plan to SSN when the opportunity arrived. P-75I can also go down the same way, now that the French are willing to cooperate.

With Chakra 2 lease we had access to 190 MWt VM-5- am sure our folks would have taken a good look. The upcoming Chakra 3 lease will offer us exposure to some Yasen class elements probably. That is a lot of good HEU tech to throw away- but LEU has its own advantages. Once HEU vs LEU call is made by our strategic planners we can then incorporate the best of Russian and French tech into IN's SSNs and combine the P-75I & P-75A into one requirement of 12 SSNs?


1633255530964.png
 

THESIS THORON

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Is there anything other than AIP that P-75I adds over P-75? When the scorpenes have AIP installed in MLU doesn't that make them P-75I spec?

Oz changed their SSK plan to SSN when the opportunity arrived. P-75I can also go down the same way, now that the French are willing to cooperate.

With Chakra 2 lease we had access to 190 MWt VM-5- am sure our folks would have taken a good look. The upcoming Chakra 3 lease will offer us exposure to some Yasen class elements probably. That is a lot of good HEU tech to throw away- but LEU has its own advantages. Once HEU vs LEU call is made by our strategic planners we can then incorporate the best of Russian and French tech into IN's SSNs and combine the P-75I & P-75A into one requirement of 12 SSNs?


View attachment 112955
imo russians wont share yasen or yasen m class tech. both are flagships of russian design.
 

MonaLazy

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yasen or yasen m class tech. both are flagships of russian design.
Quoting from that resource I linked & snapshot'd in that post.

Yasen class uses OK-650V (Chakra 2 used OK-650B) which is a 3rd generation nuclear plant whereas the Yasen-M uses KPM-6 which Is 4th gen. Not talking about Yasen-M, but plain Yasen- we already know that reactor.


Before Yasen class all subs had cylindrical sonar arrays and bow torpedo tubes- may be these elements are coming in Chakra 3?
 
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MonaLazy

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Hariharan_kalarikkal

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shashankk

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With the AUKUS blow, it is more possible than ever than France will offer sub nuclear reators or complete SSN to India.
Just curious. what were the reasons for France refusing to share Nuclear subs with India. was it pressure from USA and UK or any other reason.
 

BON PLAN

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Just curious. what were the reasons for France refusing to share Nuclear subs with India. was it pressure from USA and UK or any other reason.
It is a special technology, in link with uranium, so not so far nuke tech...
There was a gentleman agreement not to spread this tech. An agreement destroyed by AUKUS.

France has an asset in this new market open by UK and USA : our nuke reactors use low enriched uranium 7.5% (unproper to make nuke bomb) when UK and USA need 97% enriched U (nice for nukes !)
 
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MonaLazy

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France nuke reactors use low enriched uranium 7.5% (unproper to make nuke bomb) when UK and USA need 97% enriched U (nice for nukes !)
In your assessment other than the risk of proliferation with HEU, between HEU & LEU fuel which is better for submarines?

Is it better to fill it, shut it and forget it for 30 years (the life of the sub) with HEU or is it better to easily refuel LEU every 7-10 years in a few months and put the sub back to sea?

LEU is also a more compact design so that is a big win right there (reduces overall displacement of the submarine so undersea movement will be more efficient), besides that the fuel is easier to handle. Are there any cost benefits also? If the reactor has lesser parts it will most definitely be cheaper than HEU.
 

Bleh

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Once USA and/or UK agree to give SSN to Australia, the door is now fully open to offer french SSN Barracuda to India (and may be some more).
The Pandore box is now open. For the best or the worst.
Yes please... French were double-crossed & elbowed out of the Australian deal.

France needs to grow a spine, sell India ToT for both SSN Barracuda & SSK version on Scorpene.
Unfortunately we do not have the luxury of time to develop our indigenous version from the scratch. We need to build on what we have.
 

Marliii

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BON PLAN

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In your assessment other than the risk of proliferation with HEU, between HEU & LEU fuel which is better for submarines?

Is it better to fill it, shut it and forget it for 30 years (the life of the sub) with HEU or is it better to easily refuel LEU every 7-10 years in a few months and put the sub back to sea?

LEU is also a more compact design so that is a big win right there (reduces overall displacement of the submarine so undersea movement will be more efficient), besides that the fuel is easier to handle. Are there any cost benefits also? If the reactor has lesser parts it will most definitely be cheaper than HEU.
You are right. HEU is a nice solution for rich country, because after the 30 years life of the reactor you can scratch all the sub, when the french approach is more restrictive due to major operation to refill the reactor every 10 years but our old SSN Rubis class are on duty since 1983 !
I agree a refill of the reactor is time consuming, but a sub has to be docked for major overhaul frequently, so it is just every 10 years a longer overhaul than the others...

7 years was the time between refill of the previous gen. It is 10 years for Barracuda and next carrier & SSGN.
 

BON PLAN

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A new information leaked in french newspapers : it is a direct derivative of the Short fins Barracuda called SMX 3.0 that was proposed by Naval Group for P75I. So a really bigger sub than Scorpene, and more suitable for any VLS, including Brahmos (Brahmos is 8.4m long... the SMX 3.0 hull is 8.5 m diam, the bigger of the 4 subs remaining...)

edit 1 : confirmed by https://defenceforumindia.com/threads/project-75-i-next-gen-subs-rfp-issued.12181/post-2059015

edit 2 : SMX 3.0 is fitted with AIP (FV2G model, developped by NG) and Li ion battery from Saft ....

SInce some weeks the proposal may have been implemented with a nuclear version....
 
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WolfPack86

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The 4 Submarines Competing For The Indian Navy’s P-75I Program
There are four contenders for the Indian navy’s next-generation P75I submarine. They are currently submitting design proposals to the Indian Government. Whatever the outcome the boats are expected to all be built in India. So the deal will factor in political and industrial considerations as well as naval requirements.


The four contenders are the Barracuda from France, the S-80-Plus from Spain, DSME-3000 from South Korea and Amur design from Russia. Germany had also been a contender but recently said that they dropped out.


All of the contenders have their merits and it is likely to be a tough choice for the Indian Navy. Below we outline the different designs.


The Indian Navy’s detailed requirements have not been shared. Based on reports and analysis of their current capabilities, investments and threat focuses, two things seem sure. The first is that P75I will have AIP (air independent power). The second is that they would prefer a VLS to launch Brahmos anti-ship missiles. Taken together, the P75I will have to be much larger than previous Indian navy conventional submarines.


Both the AIP and VLS will present challenges and difficult decisions. Like all major submarine projects, trade-offs will have to get made. India has developed its own fuel cell AIP which it is planning to fit to the current French-designed Kalvari Class (Scorpene type). This is a logical choice for the P75I also, particularly from the perspective of indigenous industry. However the Indian Navy is likely to be very interested in the AIP already available with the designs. Incorporating the local AIP would increase development risks, and close off opportunities to access better AIP systems.

The VLS will be a challenge because all the contenders are relatively small boats. It is unclear how dependent the contract will be on a VLS, or whether alternative missile options will be considered.


1. Barracuda Class Submarine
France’s Naval Group is believed to be offering a diesel-electric version of their Barracuda nuclear submarine. The nuclear version is already in service with the French Navy (Marine Nationale) as the Suffren Class. Being from the same lineage as the Kalvari Class currently being built in India, it can be seen as a strong contender.


The diesel-electric version could have some design features from the SMX-3.0 design. This was exhibited at DEFEXPO in India in 2020. This may include the sail-mounted hydroplanes (as opposed to hull mounted on Suffren) and AIP. The French AIP system uses fuel-cells with a diesel reformer to eliminate the need for onboard hydrogen storage. It has been shore tested for years.


Perhaps the largest design advantage of the Barracuda is simply its size. The hull diameter of around 8.5 meters is the largest of the competitors. This should make it comparatively less challenging to fit a VLS, even with the massive Brahmos missile. The related SMX Ocean concept already has a VLS, and the baseline Barracuda class can anyway launch MdCN land-attack cruise missiles.


Other noteworthy features of the French design are likely to include X-form rudders and a pump-jet. This latter feature may also be of interest in India’s nuclear submarine projects.


We can speculate that French nuclear submarine technologies and/or access to extra-large uncrewed underwater vehicle (XLUUV) technologies, may also be a factor. Naval Group recently revealed that they have had an XLUUV demonstrator in the water since last year.

2. DSME-3000, South Korea’s Missile Submarine
South Korea has recently spread its wings and entered the submarine export game, selling boats to Indonesia. They are understood to be proposing an export version of their home-grown KSS-III design. This is a relatively large non-nuclear boat, likely second only to the Barracuda.


The type comes with German based fuel-cell AIP. The layout, with a hull section essentially dedicated to AIP, suggests that it would not be too challenging to swap it for the Indian alternative.


And South Korea is ahead of most countries in the race to fit lithium-base battery technology to submarines. This promises to extend the endurance of submarines when running on batterie. Naturally this may be attractive to the Indian Navy, even potentially diminishing the importance of AIP.


Its differentiating feature is that it already comes with a six or ten round VLS. In South Korean service this is expected to carry the Hyunmoo 4-4 missile, which is roughly equivalent to India’s K-15 Sagarika but without a nuclear option. While exact dimensions and weights are not available, this at least implies that it could accommodate the similarly sized Brahmos.

Carrying a VLS in such a small submarine likely needs some trade-offs, like fewer weapons slots in the regular torpedo room. But overall the South Korean design seems balanced and highly capable.


3. Spain’s New Entrant: S-80 Plus
Another new country to submarine exports, Spain’s Navantia is offering a variant of their latest S-80 plus design. This is a larger boat than the Scorpene design (per India’s Kalvari Class), but smaller than the South Korean or French options.


The AIP is a fuel-cell system with bio-ethanol reformer. So like the French system there is no need for hydrogen storage. Currently Spain’s S-80 Plus boats are not running with AIP, but the system is being tested and should go to sea in the next few years.


It is unclear whether Navantia is proposing a VLS. The design was always intended to be compatible with land-attack cruise missiles shot from the torpedo tubes.

4. The Russian Option: Amur
Essentially the export versions of the Lada Class, the Amur family of submarines has been offered for several years. Russia already has strong ties with the Indian Navy and some related Kilo Class submarines are still in their service. The Amur shares some lineage to the Kilo but features a single-hull configuration.


Despite having the smallest hull diameter of the contenders (1.5 meters less than the Barracuda), design models have frequently shown a VLS. This seems to have been for smaller Kalibr sized weapons rather than the Brahmos however.


Another challenge for the Amur designs could be AIP. Russia has yet to develop an AIP system for its Lada Class. Possibly the Indian AIP system is key to the proposal.

Like France, Russia may be seen as having a ‘home advantage’ because of the strong historic relationship. There have been reports that Russia views this as an opportunity to joint-develop the next generation of non-nuclear submarine. How this sits with other reports of the same thing with China remains unclear.
 

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