Project- 75(I). Next gen subs. RFP issued

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Indian-Military.org:pj-10 brahmos

The submarine launched version of the missile is ready for testing. The missile will be either tested on a Kilo class submarine of the Indian Navy or will be tested in Russia. The land attack version of the missile was fired from Destroyer INS Rajput and the missile hit and destroyed the right target among a group of targets. The vertical launch of Brahmos was conducted on December 18, 2008 from INS Ranvi

The Kilos will have brahmos and clubs but unspecified how many subs will have either or both?? There was also talk of trying to place brahmos on amurs but nothing confirmed??

http://indianaerodef.wordpress.com/2007/01/30/india-ready-to-fire-brahmos-missile-from-submarine/
 
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keshtopatel

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So what is the size needed? Can you please elaborate

Torpedos are ejected Horizontally from standard torpedo tubes of 21 inches - in very rare case its 26 inches. So there is no chance as of now. But if the Brahmos sheds some fat (which I think is unlikely) then its possible, or you always have it launched through VLS.
 

keshtopatel

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Indian-Military.org:pj-10 brahmos

The submarine launched version of the missile is ready for testing. The missile will be either tested on a Kilo class submarine of the Indian Navy or will be tested in Russia. The land attack version of the missile was fired from Destroyer INS Rajput and the missile hit and destroyed the right target among a group of targets. The vertical launch of Brahmos was conducted on December 18, 2008 from INS Ranvi

The Kilos will have brahmos and clubs but unspecified how many subs will have either or both?? There was also talk of trying to place brahmos on amurs but nothing confirmed??

India ready to fire BrahMos missile from submarine � Touch Base with Indian A&D Industry

Here is underwater launch progress report of Brahmos, albeit through VLS....

Submarine Launch Version - BrahMos.com
 

keshtopatel

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No, they aren't, dude. I said "maybe" in the future, nobody knows what's gonna happen in the future !


Looking at the past and the present, where you have some precedence set or a matter of status quo, you probably can predict the future.

To give you an example:

India has seen Jihadi attacks in the past, and in the present form too, what is the likelyhood that they will be gone in the future?

The stastictical probablity says NO!


Now look at the MTCR an arms control treaty where 34 nations have voluntarly became members to safegaurd thier interests vis a vis WMD. Just look at the following paragraph and see that they mean business:

In October 1994, in order to make the enforcement of MTCR Guidelines more uniform, the member states established a "no undercut" policy, meaning if one member denies the sale of some technology to another country, then all members must adhere. The ICOC, initiated by members of the MTCR, took the principles of the regime, expanded upon them, and offered membership to all nations. Thus, 117 nations now enforce export controls to curb the proliferation of UAV's
This treaty has survived and still kicking since almost 23 odd years, do you think it stands to be abandoned are abrogated?

Well, so are many other treaties in force, still in effect, if at all they are superceded by newer treaties, they would have to be better and more regorous, more compliant.

There are hundreds of treaties in the world, do you know how many treaties have gone kaput?

Its all about probability.

To think that this treaty would be disolved in the future, and its members would have free run on selling whatever WMDs, dont you think you are on slippery slope?

Nuclear boats can not be bought or sold as per the present regime - its a status quo!
 

nitesh

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Torpedos are ejected Horizontally from standard torpedo tubes of 21 inches - in very rare case its 26 inches. So there is no chance as of now. But if the Brahmos sheds some fat (which I think is unlikely) then its possible, or you always have it launched through VLS.
If you read my post I clearly mentioned that can it be fired from a 650mm torpedo tube, cruise missiles are fired from torpedo tubes there is nothing new in to that. Now weather BrahMos diameter is .6m (600 mm) {correct me here if I am wrong}, so it should be possible to fire it from it
 

bengalraider

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I would support nitesh in his assessment given that the brahmos is based on the SS-N-26 Yakhont, and the Yakhont can be fired from a torpedo tube even withg it's .7 mt dia, the brahmos has a dia of only .6m.
 

keshtopatel

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If you read my post I clearly mentioned that can it be fired from a 650mm torpedo tube, cruise missiles are fired from torpedo tubes there is nothing new in to that. Now weather BrahMos diameter is .6m (600 mm) {correct me here if I am wrong}, so it should be possible to fire it from it

Cruise missiles ARE fired through torpedo tubes, its given.

But this fat cat Brahmos does not fit there. Period.

Did not I say it has to loose some fat - structural modification?

For your perusal:

The Sukhoi-30 integration is out of the question for the near-term since such launch warrants extensive structural modifications to the BrahMos missile. A feasibility study has shown that the BrahMos would require reduction in diameter as well as length, implying that the missile will have to return to the drawing board if it wants to be carried by a Flanker.

If BrahMos Corporation proceeds with reducing the bore diameter of the missile platform, it will start to influence not only the aerodynamic stability, but also the air flow through the pipe (air flow in a ramjet needs to be strictly regulated in order to sustain flame because in a ramjet, the airflow takes place in a transonic which is synonymous with turbulence where sustaining flame is a huge issue). Therefore, addressing aerodynamic stability and flame sustenance together is a huge task for BrahMos currently in this particular integration. It literally means having to go back to the laboratory and reworking the whole thing, all over again. Of course, this is going to take more than just a few months.


Thats why I said in my previous post that its UNLIKELY that Brahmos would go to gym to become a leaner meaner machine......

On the other hand to kill the curiosity on the diameter issue........lets wait for Hypersonic Brahmos and its configuration. Its highly LIKELY that it woould fit the shoe.

Now for the example:

Tomahawk, having lean mass of .52 M is ideal candidate to be fired through TTL, source: BGM-109 Tomahawk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia............... NOT Brahmos with .70 M Source: BrahMos sets a speed record | Deccan Chronicle | 2010-09-06
 

keshtopatel

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I would support nitesh in his assessment given that the brahmos is based on the SS-N-26 Yakhont, and the Yakhont can be fired from a torpedo tube even withg it's .7 mt dia, the brahmos has a dia of only .6m.

Brahmos corp, parent of Brahmos has the last word:

Submarine Launch Version - BrahMos.com

And it says that torpedo tubes would be used for defense purpose..........

What does it mean?
 

nitesh

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Cruise missiles ARE fired through torpedo tubes, its given.

Did not I say it has to loose some fat - structural modification?

For your perusal:
don't bring air launched version here, it requires reduction in booster size because it already has sped as it is cling ed form an aircraft: India, Russia develop airborne supersonic cruise missile | World | RIA Novosti

But this fat cat Brahmos does not fit there. Period.
This line should be saying "in current configuration"

Tomahawk, having lean mass of .52 M is ideal candidate to be fired through TTL, source: BGM-109 Tomahawk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia............... NOT Brahmos with .70 M Source: BrahMos sets a speed record | Deccan Chronicle | 2010-09-06
There is some confusion here, some sources say .67 cm diameter, wiki says .6 and u got .7 :) hmmm

MissileThreat :: BrahMos PJ-10
Brahmos Supersonic Cruise missile
 

sandeepdg

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Looking at the past and the present, where you have some precedence set or a matter of status quo, you probably can predict the future.

To give you an example:

India has seen Jihadi attacks in the past, and in the present form too, what is the likelyhood that they will be gone in the future?

The stastictical probablity says NO!


Now look at the MTCR an arms control treaty where 34 nations have voluntarly became members to safegaurd thier interests vis a vis WMD. Just look at the following paragraph and see that they mean business:



This treaty has survived and still kicking since almost 23 odd years, do you think it stands to be abandoned are abrogated?

Well, so are many other treaties in force, still in effect, if at all they are superceded by newer treaties, they would have to be better and more regorous, more compliant.

There are hundreds of treaties in the world, do you know how many treaties have gone kaput?

Its all about probability.

To think that this treaty would be disolved in the future, and its members would have free run on selling whatever WMDs, dont you think you are on slippery slope?

Nuclear boats can not be bought or sold as per the present regime - its a status quo!
Oh great, now you are lecturing me on MTCR ! I very well know what that is and its scope, please. I said "maybe in the future", didn't you get that ?? Obviously both India and Russia will face difficulties for such a sale to take place, given the international ramifications since Russia is a signatory to both NPT and MTCR. But then again, I also said that nobody can predict the future, just because that law has stood ground till now doesn't mean it will continue to do so in the future as well !! Who knows what kind of a world we will have after 10 years ? Also, I said we don't need to buy them anyway, we can always improve upon the Arihant design by taking lessons from the Akula. Read the fine print before jumping to rhetoric, pal !
 

keshtopatel

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Kunal Biswas 20 Minutes Ago
Exactly, they said the will not, but that dont mean they cant..
Its common sense!

When, leaving the already configured TTLs they wanna go for VLS (extra route) what does it show?

BTW, see the torpedo loading act, how snug fit is the torpedo, very little clearance, because the chamber is air locked:





When expelling a Brahmos through TTL, the paramount issue is diameter and few other.......
 

nitesh

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When the Brahmos Corp itself says that they will not be launched through TTL, so whats on the plate now?
In current configuration right............. same as kunal is saying

mean while can some body confirm the exact diameter of BrahMos :)

PS: I am sorry I have missed that portion of BrahMos corp saying it can not be launched from torpedo tube please help me out with that
 

keshtopatel

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In current configuration right............. same as kunal is saying

mean while can some body confirm the exact diameter of BrahMos :)

PS: I am sorry I have missed that portion of BrahMos corp saying it can not be launched from torpedo tube please help me out with that
Its 700 mm as per kanwa.

Sourc:free/0029/c1010a.htm.

Klub missiles can be fired through TTL (Kilo class) having the diameter of .53 M
 

nitesh

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Its 700 mm as per kanwa.

Sourc:free/0029/c1010a.htm.

Klub missiles can be fired through TTL (Kilo class) having the diameter of .53 M
I am not interested in klub, we are talking about BrahMos, as it seems there is confusion but as nrj pointed out it seems .67 M is credible one. Please provide the BrahMos corp statement that BrahMos can not be fired from torpedo tube
 

keshtopatel

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PS: I am sorry I have missed that portion of BrahMos corp saying it can not be launched from torpedo tube please help me out with that
They have said that Brahmos will be fired through VLS, and not through TTL, which is reserved for defensive purpose (torpedo).....

I have given the link already on that.
 

nitesh

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They have said that Brahmos will be fired through VLS, and not through TTL, which is reserved for defensive purpose (torpedo).....

I have given the link already on that.
Thanks, found out.

What you are saying is your interpretation
 

keshtopatel

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Thanks, found out.

What you are saying is your interpretation

Brahmos site does not allow copy paste, otherwise I would have done that, its not my interpretation, its what Brahmos Corp is saying in clear cut terms on both the issues viz; VLS and TTL.
 

nitesh

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Brahmos site does not allow copy paste, otherwise I would have done that, its not my interpretation, its what Brahmos Corp is saying in clear cut terms on both the issues viz; VLS and TTL.
The link you provided in post no 123 and 128 says that torpedo tubes can be fully utilized for defense and you are interpreting it as it can not be fired from torpedo tubes.
 

Kunal Biswas

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Its common sense!

When, leaving the already configured TTLs they wanna go for VLS (extra route) what does it show?
@keshto,

1. Brahmos can be fired from Submarine 650mm/533mm tubes, otherwise DRDO never asked so surely for platform outside INDIA....
2. The reason it change coz firing from torpedo tubes will limits the rate of fire also the number of missile in chamber....


Solution:
VLS provide the answer,

1. The number of missile is increased..
2. Rate of fire will be increased..
 

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