Project- 75(I). Next gen subs. RFP issued

bose

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Couple of things to remember if India wants to address the Chinese threat immediately

1) Go for 4 more Scorpene submarines built at Mazagon dock in addition to the 6 we are building .... continue to build upon the production capacity we have achieved thus far.

2) Go for the 3 + 3 upgraded offer from Russia it will at least take care for of the submarines for next 10 - 15 years and by then we will built our own capacity.

Nuclear attack submarines are key for Indian future security that will take another 10 years to come, India needs at least 30 - 35 submarines into it Navy supported by 3 yards producing in tandem ...
 

Edinburgh

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It needs the ability of large-scale manufacturing, and six or seven subs in more than ten years can not keep up with the speed of replacement.
American nuclear submarines are usually commissioned 1 or 2 a year.
At its peak, China commissioned four conventional submarines 039B in 2012 and three in 2011.
If you have 30 submarines, you basically have to serve 1 every year to keep up with the decommissioning rate.
The United States has to serve about two ships a year, and China three or four, to keep up with 70 subs and 90 subs, respectively.

If it is produced at a low speed, because the old submarine is decommissioned, the scale of the submarine will not be expanded.
 

Bhurki

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It needs the ability of large-scale manufacturing, and six or seven subs in more than ten years can not keep up with the speed of replacement.
American nuclear submarines are usually commissioned 1 or 2 a year.
At its peak, China commissioned four conventional submarines 039B in 2012 and three in 2011.
If you have 30 submarines, you basically have to serve 1 every year to keep up with the decommissioning rate.
The United States has to serve about two ships a year, and China three or four, to keep up with 70 subs and 90 subs, respectively.

If it is produced at a low speed, because the old submarine is decommissioned, the scale of the submarine will not be expanded.
Most ships (other than carriers) have a nominal lifetime of 30 years, so a total fleet size/30 gives the production rate to maintain your desired capacity. Obviously, to increase to that fleet size, you need to build faster on a steeper ramp rate.

The navy i am impressed by most is JMSDF. Despite having higher wage costs and higher level of technology, they are able to build at extremely cheap prices.
The newer diesel subs(soryu for $500m and taigei for $630m) and frigates(30FFM) each cost just $0.5B.

While the likes of Australia are looking to pay about $90 billion for 12 subs, and even India is building P17A for $1B a piece.
 
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IndianHawk

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It needs the ability of large-scale manufacturing, and six or seven subs in more than ten years can not keep up with the speed of replacement.
American nuclear submarines are usually commissioned 1 or 2 a year.
At its peak, China commissioned four conventional submarines 039B in 2012 and three in 2011.
If you have 30 submarines, you basically have to serve 1 every year to keep up with the decommissioning rate.
The United States has to serve about two ships a year, and China three or four, to keep up with 70 subs and 90 subs, respectively.

If it is produced at a low speed, because the old submarine is decommissioned, the scale of the submarine will not be expanded.
To reach chinese or American speed we need to first settle on a design for both ssk and SSN.

For SSN it will be our own Design only issue is cost due to nuclear propulsion.

For SSK plan was to settle on an indigenous design after p75 and p75i projects . But p75i is already delayed .

Once you settle for a baseline design you can multiple ships in continuous batches of 10-12 while upgrading each batch with latest tech.

That way shipyards have continuous work and they can work on multiple shifts.

Right now MDL has expanded submarine building capabilities but lack of orders means it is forced to go slow.
 

IndianHawk

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Most ships (other than carriers) have a nominal lifetime of 30 years, so a total fleet size/30 gives the production rate to maintain your desired capacity. Obviously, to increase to that fleet size, you need to build faster on a steeper ramp rate.

The navy i am impressed by most is JMSDF. Despite having higher wage costs and higher level of technology, they are able to build at extremely cheap prices.
The newer diesel subs(soryu for $500m and taigei for $630m) and frigates(30FFM) each cost just $0.5B.

While the likes of Australia are looking to pay about $90 billion for 12 subs, and even India is building P17A for $1B a piece.
Japanese frigate are much smaller than p17A which are basically destroyer size frigates at 6600 tons. Have much more range and endurance compared to japanese ships.

Their cost also reflects upgrade of docks which is going on simultaneously.

As for soryu class submarine they are a class apart a marvel of Japanese engineering. But I think it is better to go for SSN for india rather than seeking half assed solutions to increase endurance.
 

Flying Dagger

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To reach chinese or American speed we need to first settle on a design for both ssk and SSN.

For SSN it will be our own Design only issue is cost due to nuclear propulsion.

For SSK plan was to settle on an indigenous design after p75 and p75i projects . But p75i is already delayed .

Once you settle for a baseline design you can multiple ships in continuous batches of 10-12 while upgrading each batch with latest tech.

That way shipyards have continuous work and they can work on multiple shifts.

Right now MDL has expanded submarine building capabilities but lack of orders means it is forced to go slow.
For SSN we will have to wait we are still in the beginning phase in that dept.

We will need an entire nuke operated carrier fleet in future.

Also the russian proposal to upgrade is fine but I don't think we should opt for another three of those type.

Better continue with scorpene and Increase its size with DRDO AIP onboard. By the time we will.be able to build next 9 of this type we will have enough experience to bring the next indigenous design.
 

IndianHawk

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For SSN we will have to wait we are still in the beginning phase in that dept.

We will need an entire nuke operated carrier fleet in future.

Also the russian proposal to upgrade is fine but I don't think we should opt for another three of those type.

Better continue with scorpene and Increase its size with DRDO AIP onboard. By the time we will.be able to build next 9 of this type we will have enough experience to bring the next indigenous design.
If we are able to build a 190 MW reactor for submarine then that will be key for our next phase of SSBN , SSN and nuclear carrier.
 

IndianHawk

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If we are able to build a 190 MW reactor for submarine then that will be key for our next phase of SSBN , SSN and nuclear carrier.
Although theorically we can already build SSN around 83 MW reactor that arihant uses.

France still operates rubis class SSN which are just 2600 ton and have a puny 48 mw reactor.

So 83 MW reactor can provide us with a decent 3000 ton SSN.

But I we are going for 6000 ton SSN hence need either a new 190 ton reactor or will use two 83 MW together.
 

The Maverick

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new to thread so forgive

for this project and for our navy modernisation realistically

I would like to see 6 kilos upgraded because,these are still.very quiet subs

we have 6 scorpene,and we add the indian zip system.

finally order the barracuda class from.france it's suppose,to be a world class sub. my worry is the cost

the remaining balance should be 6 nuclear armed indengious subs,giving India,24 subs in total.
 

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Ya'll Nibbiars The Russia’s Rosoboronexport state arms seller, part of Russia’s Rostec state hi-tech corporation, is ready to take part in India’s tender for the delivery of submarines under the P75i program, the press office of Rosoboronexport told TASS at the Aero India 2021 international aerospace show.

“Rosoboronexport is ready tzo bid for it [the tender] if it receives relevant documents. India has not announced the tender so far,” the press office said.

The P75i program for six conventional submarines with an air-independent propulsion unit and a strike missile system was initiated in 2007. The project is worth about $6 billion.

As of the beginning of 2021, the tender has not been announced.

The P75I Scorpene class submarines will be armed with six torpedo launching tubes, 18 heavy weapons, tube-launched MBDA SM-39 Exocet anti-ship missiles and precision-guided weapons. The weapons are carried in weapon launching tubes and can be easily reloaded at sea.Indian Navy has already different types of Russians submarines including Akula II INS Chakra nuclear powered attack submarine. Sindhughosh-class submarines are Kilo-class diesel-electric submarines in active service with the Indian Navy.

The Project 75I-class submarine is a follow-on of the Project 75 Kalvari-class submarine for the Indian Navy. Under this project, the Indian Navy intends to acquire six diesel-electric submarines featuring advanced air-independent propulsion systems.The Kalvari class is a class of diesel-electric attack submarines based on the Scorpène-class submarine being built for the Indian Navy.
So the Russians want us to be the guinea pig for their untested, unreliable AIP system that they don't trust enough to use themselves (even though Russia unlike France still uses diesel subs in fleet).

No thank you.

I still maintain that P-75I should be scrapped in place of a repeat order for 6-8 more Scorpenes with DRDO AIP.

If at all a new design is required (to support VLS or whatever), then it should be a Naval Group design with MDL as the builder again, with maximum commonality in parts (and supplier chain) already established in Kalvari project.

I'd prefer to see nothing more than a Private sector yard like L&T getting the contract to build a fleet of major combatant class, but in this case MDL has an established infra & relationship with Naval Group and that could translate into some serious cost & time benefits. Two things we really cannot afford to waste wrt the submarine program at this stage.
 

Ashok84

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Instead making very costly submarines can we make underwater missile bases for our K4 to K6 balistic missile.... If people can make station in space then underwater bases will be the future targeting Chinese and pakistani cities.... Is it practical?? Experts view!!!!
 

Maharaj samudragupt

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Instead making very costly submarines can we make underwater missile bases for our K4 to K6 balistic missile.... If people can make station in space then underwater bases will be the future targeting Chinese and pakistani cities.... Is it practical?? Experts view!!!!
No view , even though am not a expert.
Astronauts don't fight in space , do they ?
Plus , if chena or Pakistan can target our ground based systems then what stops them from targeting those static missile bases ?


They are not possible to build.
 

Ashok84

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No view , even though am not a expert.
Astronauts don't fight in space , do they ?
Plus , if chena or Pakistan can target our ground based systems then what stops them from targeting those static missile bases ?


They are not possible to build.
We already have static pontoons where the missile like k series are tested.... With the cost of a floating submarine can we make lot of pontoons or underwater missile bases?? I think it will more deterrent for second strike capability... Any such bases any where the world???
 

Gandaberunda

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We already have static pontoons where the missile like k series are tested.... With the cost of a floating submarine can we make lot of pontoons or underwater missile bases?? I think it will more deterrent for second strike capability... Any such bases any where the world???
SSBN are moving underwater bases... These subs are always hidden underwater at strategic safe location and only used as last resort of deterrence even during war.
Underwater static missile bases are not feasible to build and maintain and vulnerable to mishaps and attacks.
 

IndianHawk

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Instead making very costly submarines can we make underwater missile bases for our K4 to K6 balistic missile.... If people can make station in space then underwater bases will be the future targeting Chinese and pakistani cities.... Is it practical?? Experts view!!!!
Static means they will be found out by enemy eventually and will be targeted in first strike .

Second strike means enemy must remain clueless about where are the nukes. Hence fast and silent ships with endless endurance aka ssbn.
 

Ashok84

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Static means they will be found out by enemy eventually and will be targeted in first strike .

Second strike means enemy must remain clueless about where are the nukes. Hence fast and silent ships with endless endurance aka ssbn.
Which will be difficult to find?? Underwater missile bases in 100 of positions or 10 submarines having 4 missiles( now a days most of submarines are tracable) ....
 

IndianHawk

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Which will be difficult to find?? Underwater missile bases in 100 of positions or 10 submarines having 4 missiles( now a days most of submarines are tracable) ....
Even 1 SSBN is difficult to find once it slips underwater. It is not for nothing that all nuclear powers posses SSBN . These debates have been settled alredy.
 

Ashok84

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The submarines would be toughest to find.
And who the hell leaves 100s of missiles underwater?
100 of missiles each in 100 places mostly in eez zones of India close to main land places like andaman, cocos, l dweep Or near gujrat coast etc... Just a thought... In addition to floating missile bases with limited fire power which can be defeated by enemies missile defence system... These missiles can rain havoc on enemies penetrating mds... Future may be... Sry for waisting time
 

FalconSlayers

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Which will be difficult to find?? Underwater missile bases in 100 of positions or 10 submarines having 4 missiles( now a days most of submarines are tracable) ....
Pakistan navy or even Chinese marines will be able to detect and neutralise a stationary pontoon underwater, no use.
 

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