Project- 75(I). Next gen subs. RFP issued

power_monger

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By that logic no new company would ever rise in a new sector.

Expertise comes with skilled experience people and with partnership with established players.

How did l&t got expertise? It started somewhere!
Are you comparing the experience of L&T in submarjne
You do realise offsets are involved in the deal and reliance is building parts for falcon jets by learning from dassault!
You don't equate offsets to designing a complete system. Anyways your argument holds no good when capable private companies with decades of working in this field exist. First let these companies work with DRDO and then it shall get it into such contracts . The amount of advancement l&t has made in submarine construction in huge. So it deserves better than adani.

You will hand over project to adani over l&t only if your bribed .I do not even see any other possibility.
 

power_monger

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MDL winning only makes sense if the French option is chosen. They have gone to great lengths to keep their skilled workforce on the payroll. No one else has that competitive advantage. If Adani has never operated a shipyard I can't see what advantage they would have at all.
What if navy decides to go for additional scorpene submarines? Who will deliver it ?

Btw has France lived up to its expectations of passing on TOT? I think there is a strong reason why navy is not.intrested in further scorpene even though it seems like most logical choice to increase numbers.
 

IndianHawk

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Are you comparing the experience of L&T in submarjne


You don't equate offsets to designing a complete system. Anyways your argument holds no good when capable private companies with decades of working in this field exist. First let these companies work with DRDO and then it shall get it into such contracts . The amount of advancement l&t has made in submarine construction in huge. So it deserves better than adani.

You will hand over project to adani over l&t only if your bribed .I do not even see any other possibility.
Who is bribing whom . L&t wins several govt contracts on multiple sectors. Are they bribing too?

If l&t has capacity and expertise and a foreign partner willing to transfer tech then l&t will win. Who is l&t partner on this ?

Nobody deserves anything . It's an open tender. Bid and win.
 

power_monger

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Who is bribing whom . L&t wins several govt contracts on multiple sectors. Are they bribing too?

If l&t has capacity and expertise and a foreign partner willing to transfer tech then l&t will win. Who is l&t partner on this ?

Nobody deserves anything . It's an open tender. Bid and win.
Have you ever bid in any government tender ? I have. There is a technical feasibility section where each capability is given points. Once you clear technical criteria you will enter financial bid.

In tenders , most basic criteria is something like a) years of experience in this field b) turnover for last 3 years.

How is adani going to pass technical round. Either the eligibility has been written very loosely. However these things will be questioned in courts.financial bidding is not the sole criteria in bids.
 

Armand2REP

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Reliance never built a plane before so why did dassault chose it as partner??
Because Dassault is training the workforce in French methods of production. HAL is too set in their ways to be retrained to do something different. They like how they are doing things and will not change.
 

power_monger

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Because Dassault is training the workforce in French methods of production. HAL is too set in their ways to be retrained to do something different. They like how they are doing things and will not change.
Oh let's not get into issue. It's beaten to death. Let's talk submarines here.
 

Chinmoy

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Have you ever bid in any government tender ? I have. There is a technical feasibility section where each capability is given points. Once you clear technical criteria you will enter financial bid.

In tenders , most basic criteria is something like a) years of experience in this field b) turnover for last 3 years.

How is adani going to pass technical round. Either the eligibility has been written very loosely. However these things will be questioned in courts.financial bidding is not the sole criteria in bids.
upload_2019-9-13_12-46-3.png


As you could see, going by the RFI, non of the Indian company qualifies. So its always about a JV. Now Adani for sure is to fail on Technical ground, but there is no problem in participating.
 

IndianHawk

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Have you ever bid in any government tender ? I have. There is a technical feasibility section where each capability is given points. Once you clear technical criteria you will enter financial bid.

In tenders , most basic criteria is something like a) years of experience in this field b) turnover for last 3 years.

How is adani going to pass technical round. Either the eligibility has been written very loosely. However these things will be questioned in courts.financial bidding is not the sole criteria in bids.
Expertise will be offered by foreign partner of adani. That is the whole project. We are seeking foreign tech to build in India.

And if they won't fullfil criteria they will be disqualified. It's that simple. You want them to not even file for tender . Why? They have submitted bit before deadline . They would have read the tender and submitted documents . What's your problem with process.
 

IndianHawk

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Because Dassault is training the workforce in French methods of production. HAL is too set in their ways to be retrained to do something different. They like how they are doing things and will not change.
I understand that. My point is same goes for adani. If adani and it's foreign partner wins then same thing will happen.
 

Armand2REP

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I understand that. My point is same goes for adani. If adani and it's foreign partner wins then same thing will happen.
MDL already has the trained workforce so they can get to work much faster and with less delays. If they choose anyone else then all of the learning curves will happen all over again.
 

power_monger

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MDL already has the trained workforce so they can get to work much faster and with less delays. If they choose anyone else then all of the learning curves will happen all over again.
Who will build additional scorpene if ordered?
Or
If navy is not interested to give follow-up orders to French which looks most logical reason to increase strength at low cost , why expect it in this tender?

I still do not think mdl is going to get this tender.
 

vampyrbladez

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Who will build additional scorpene if ordered?
Or
If navy is not interested to give follow-up orders to French which looks most logical reason to increase strength at low cost , why expect it in this tender?

I still do not think mdl is going to get this tender.
It will be split between a private shipyard and MDL.
 

Armand2REP

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Who will build additional scorpene if ordered?
Or
If navy is not interested to give follow-up orders to French which looks most logical reason to increase strength at low cost , why expect it in this tender?

I still do not think mdl is going to get this tender.
The work at MDL on the ordered Scorpenes is almost complete. This tender is in line with keeping that skilled labour force at work. Why order more AIP Scorpenes when they could order more Shortfins with the possibility of LEU reactors? If they intend to delay P75I for a few years they could get the option Scorpenes before work would even start on the Barracudas. Knowing GoI tender processing times it could take that long.
 

IndianHawk

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MDL already has the trained workforce so they can get to work much faster and with less delays. If they choose anyone else then all of the learning curves will happen all over again.
The goal of 75i is to infuse foreign tech into Indian shipyards. Since mdl has already gotten Scorpion tech the 75i will go to a different yard for modernization.

Now mdl will either get more Scorpion to build ( not likely since navy is cold to french offer) or will start building indegenios ssk ( 12 of which are planned ) .
 

Bhurki

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Its a bit early to go entirely indigenous. Not doubting the domestic manufacturers, but they don't yet have enough assimilated experience to be held accountable for producing main line submarines in full rate. They should go for a follow on for 6 more P75 and get down to the nitty gritty of the production line in a way that domestic producers can control 90% of components by the end of that order.
India requires to output at least 1 SSk every year to maintain credible offensive posture of around 30 ssk by 2040. We have to prepare for long haul now. Changing base design and configurations every few units will be a nightmare in maintaining these ships, standardizing training procedures and upgradation on a domestic level.
 

IndianHawk

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Its a bit early to go entirely indigenous. Not doubting the domestic manufacturers, but they don't yet have enough assimilated experience to be held accountable for producing main line submarines in full rate. They should go for a follow on for 6 more P75 and get down to the nitty gritty of the production line in a way that domestic producers can control 90% of components by the end of that order.
India requires to output at least 1 SSk every year to maintain credible offensive posture of around 30 ssk by 2040. We have to prepare for long haul now. Changing base design and configurations every few units will be a nightmare in maintaining these ships, standardizing training procedures and upgradation on a domestic level.
An absurd post . Given that we have build indegenios SSBN and are designing indegenios SSN.
 

Bhurki

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An absurd post . Given that we have build indegenios SSBN and are designing indegenios SSN.
This post would've been absurd if P75 wasn't running 6 years behind schedule and if we had commissioned the last of kalvari class a year ago.
Its one thing designing limited number of one offs like arihant class with each sub having different dimensions and capabilities(S4,S4*), and its duly appreciated.
But its entirely different to run a long term submarine program to supply constant number of hulls in specific time and cost constraints, while leaving enough headroom for advancements on subclasses.
Time and cost budgeting will require the manufacturers to significantly remap long lead orders and production capabilities if they want to produce quality subs without hiccups., and they need constant exposure to new tech and a formulated manufacturing approach for that, not the haphazard way that we normally function in.
 
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binayak95

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This post would've been absurd if P75 wasn't running 6 years behind schedule and if we had commissioned the last of kalvari class a year ago.
Its one thing designing limited number of one offs like arihant class with each sub having different dimensions and capabilities(S4,S4*), and its duly appreciated.
But its entirely different to run a long term submarine program to supply constant number of hulls in specific time and cost constraints, while leaving enough headroom for advancements on subclasses.
Time and cost budgeting will require the manufacturers to significantly remap long lead orders and production capabilities if they want to produce quality subs without hiccups., and they need constant exposure to new tech and a formulated manufacturing approach for that, not the haphazard way that we normally function in.
Actually SSKs are more complex than SSBNs
SSKs need to be small, stealthy, faster and with greater reaction times than a SSBN, and yet retain decent range and loitering ability.

SSNs add another layer of complexity.
 

Prashant12

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Sweden out, South Korea in for Rs 45,000 crore submarine project

South Korean company Daewoo Shipbuilding and Marine Engineering was extended a late invitation to place technical bids for the contract last month.

NEW DELHI:The Rs 45,000 crore submarine project contest for the Indian Navy continues to throw up surprises with the last minute entry of a South Korean shipbuilder and the pulling out of Swedish company Saab after red flagging policy strictures that can potentially place unlimited liabilities on foreign vendors.

South Korean company Daewoo Shipbuilding and Marine Engineering was extended a late invitation to place technical bids for the contract last month, weeks before a visit by defence minister Rajnath Singh to Seoul.

The company now joints the Naval Group (France), TKMS (Germany), Rosoboronexport (Russia) and Navantia (Spain) as potential foreign partners for the project to build six conventional submarines in India. This is the single largest ‘Make in India’ project.

Sources told ET that SAAB, which has been a key participant in pre-bid meetings with stakeholders over the past two years, informed the ministry in writing that it would not be able to take part in the competition. Conditions in the Strategic Partnership (SP) policy under which the contract is being processed led to this decision.

“It is a decision we have made due to the customers’ requirements regarding the time schedule and the requirements related to the SP policy with its unbalance between our possibilities to have control and our obligations and liabilities. We believe that we have a very competitive product that would suit the customer well, but after having examined the EOI, we have decided not to enter the competition due to the above reasons,” Ola Rignell, chairman & managing director at SAAB India, said in response to an ET query.

Similar concerns have been echoed by other foreign vendors in several meetings with stakeholders, ET has been informed. The primary concern of foreign companies—mandated to partner with selected Indian partners to manufacture the submarines here-—is that the conditions in the policy can potentially place unlimited liabilities in their books.

The SP policy gives the lead responsibility of the contract to the Indian vendor that has to hold at least 51% stake in the project, thus taking away control of the special purpose vehicle (SPV) that is to be formed from the foreign technology partner. This, some industry executives say, has implications as the quality and timelines required cannot be guaranteed by the foreign partner.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...re-submarine-project/articleshow/71303887.cms
 

Bhurki

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Why isn't the scorpene class being extended? It would not only provide commonality for training, maintenance and SOP, but also use already existing workforce to amalgamize all knowhow due to a long run, probably even start serial production. What is it with Indian Babus wanting to create a zoo of different classes of weapons in each service?
 

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