Project- 75(I). Next gen subs. RFP issued

JHA

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If the condition in pakistan prevails for another 2-3 years, they will have no option but to go for chinese subs..So, we dont have to worry about any more stealth subs in our backyard.

About the MERLIN class subs - I think it is still a paper sub. Its not built yet..However i welcome any source claiming otherwise.
 

SHASH2K2

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Navy torpedoes Indian private shipyards role in new Project
Scorpene submarine hull sections being readied at Mazagon Dock Ltd, Mumbai. The Scorpene programme (Project 75) is currently running 30-months late
(This is the first article of a four-part series on India's critical, yet significantly delayed, submarine programme)
by Ajai ShuklaBusiness Standard, 30th Aug 10
A far-reaching decision by the Ministry of Defence (MoD) will jolt private Indian shipbuilders that are eager to participate in India's submarine building programme. Top sources in the ministry have told Business Standard that its apex Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) has decided to exclude Indian private shipyards from the construction of six submarines for the Indian Navy under Project 75I. Instead, the first two submarines will be built at a foreign shipyard.


Project 75I initially envisaged that all six submarines would be built in India. MDL was to build three; Hindustan Shipyard Limited (HSL) --- recently acquired by the MoD from the Ministry of Shipping --- would build one; while Indian private sector shipyards --- L&T and Pipavav --- would compete to build two submarines. But the Indian Navy's insistence on building two submarines abroad has torpedoed the private sector shipbuilders out of the picture.

The navy's demand, explains a senior admiral on condition of anonymity, stems from the delays that have been endemic to indigenous submarine construction. India bought four HDW submarines in the 1980s. HDW's shipyard in Germany built two of them in just 56 months each. In contrast, MDL took 98 months and 116 months respectively to build the other two. Mazagon Dock is also running 30 months late in delivering the first of six Scorpene submarines that it was contracted to build under Project 75.

"At least two submarines will come in quickly by building them abroad", declares the admiral. "We are desperately short of submarines." A performance audit of the Indian Navy by the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) has documented that just seven or eight of India's 15 submarines are operational at any given time against a projected requirement of at least 24.

Yet, curiously, despite the dismal track record of Mazagon Dock, the defence acquisition council has decided to hand it a prime role in Project 75I as well. While the cost of Project 75I is still not known, it will substantially exceed the Rs 23,562 crores that India paid French companies Armaris and DCNS for Project 75, since building two submarines abroad will inflate the cost.

Furthermore, that decision will require fresh sanction from the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) --- typically involving a 12-24 month delay --- since the current sanction mandates that all the submarines must be built in India.

Only after that will a tender be issued to identify a foreign technology partner. Amongst the possible bidders for the contract are Amur Shipbuilding Plant, Russia; German shipyard, HDW; Spain's Navantia; Italy's Fincantieri; and France's, DCNS.

In 1999, the top-level Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) approved a 30-Year Submarine Construction Plan, for 24 conventional submarines to be constructed in India. This sanctioned two simultaneous construction lines: six submarines built from western technology; and six based on Russian know-how. After that 12 indigenously designed submarines were to be built.

The navy believes that Russian submarines have greater endurance, firepower and strategic utility; while western submarines are stealthier and, therefore, harder to detect. It was reasoned that Indian designers would adopt the best of both traditions when designing the 12 indigenous submarines.

Private companies, especially L&T and Pipavav have invested thousands of crores of rupees to build world-class shipyards, and have lobbied intensely for a share of the submarine programme. Over the last decade, L&T has played the central role in building and outfitting the nuclear-powered, nuclear missile submarine, INS Arihant, and will do so for its two successor vessels as well.

Senior L&T officials have argued that Mazagon Dock would have its hands full with Scorpene production until at least 2019 and has no capacity to take on another three submarines. But the MoD has presented a detailed plan for the shipyard to set up a second submarine line.
 

Tshering22

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Navy torpedoes Indian private shipyards role in new Project
Scorpene submarine hull sections being readied at Mazagon Dock Ltd, Mumbai. The Scorpene programme (Project 75) is currently running 30-months late
(This is the first article of a four-part series on India's critical, yet significantly delayed, submarine programme)
by Ajai ShuklaBusiness Standard, 30th Aug 10
A far-reaching decision by the Ministry of Defence (MoD) will jolt private Indian shipbuilders that are eager to participate in India's submarine building programme. Top sources in the ministry have told Business Standard that its apex Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) has decided to exclude Indian private shipyards from the construction of six submarines for the Indian Navy under Project 75I. Instead, the first two submarines will be built at a foreign shipyard.


Project 75I initially envisaged that all six submarines would be built in India. MDL was to build three; Hindustan Shipyard Limited (HSL) --- recently acquired by the MoD from the Ministry of Shipping --- would build one; while Indian private sector shipyards --- L&T and Pipavav --- would compete to build two submarines. But the Indian Navy's insistence on building two submarines abroad has torpedoed the private sector shipbuilders out of the picture.

The navy's demand, explains a senior admiral on condition of anonymity, stems from the delays that have been endemic to indigenous submarine construction. India bought four HDW submarines in the 1980s. HDW's shipyard in Germany built two of them in just 56 months each. In contrast, MDL took 98 months and 116 months respectively to build the other two. Mazagon Dock is also running 30 months late in delivering the first of six Scorpene submarines that it was contracted to build under Project 75.

"At least two submarines will come in quickly by building them abroad", declares the admiral. "We are desperately short of submarines." A performance audit of the Indian Navy by the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) has documented that just seven or eight of India's 15 submarines are operational at any given time against a projected requirement of at least 24.

Yet, curiously, despite the dismal track record of Mazagon Dock, the defence acquisition council has decided to hand it a prime role in Project 75I as well. While the cost of Project 75I is still not known, it will substantially exceed the Rs 23,562 crores that India paid French companies Armaris and DCNS for Project 75, since building two submarines abroad will inflate the cost.

Furthermore, that decision will require fresh sanction from the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) --- typically involving a 12-24 month delay --- since the current sanction mandates that all the submarines must be built in India.

Only after that will a tender be issued to identify a foreign technology partner. Amongst the possible bidders for the contract are Amur Shipbuilding Plant, Russia; German shipyard, HDW; Spain's Navantia; Italy's Fincantieri; and France's, DCNS.

In 1999, the top-level Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) approved a 30-Year Submarine Construction Plan, for 24 conventional submarines to be constructed in India. This sanctioned two simultaneous construction lines: six submarines built from western technology; and six based on Russian know-how. After that 12 indigenously designed submarines were to be built.

The navy believes that Russian submarines have greater endurance, firepower and strategic utility; while western submarines are stealthier and, therefore, harder to detect. It was reasoned that Indian designers would adopt the best of both traditions when designing the 12 indigenous submarines.

Private companies, especially L&T and Pipavav have invested thousands of crores of rupees to build world-class shipyards, and have lobbied intensely for a share of the submarine programme. Over the last decade, L&T has played the central role in building and outfitting the nuclear-powered, nuclear missile submarine, INS Arihant, and will do so for its two successor vessels as well.

Senior L&T officials have argued that Mazagon Dock would have its hands full with Scorpene production until at least 2019 and has no capacity to take on another three submarines. But the MoD has presented a detailed plan for the shipyard to set up a second submarine line.
And then some of us Indians wonder why Sarkari dodos are responsible for delays, cost escalations, cancellations etc of weapons coupled with lagging behind in indigenous technology.:angry_6:
 

SHASH2K2

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And then some of us Indians wonder why Sarkari dodos are responsible for delays, cost escalations, cancellations etc of weapons coupled with lagging behind in indigenous technology.:angry_6:
what else I can say except that this is way we work in India . I am sure there is a divine power that protect us from enemies else we would have all perished till now.
 

JHA

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If we select LADA , I am sure we can get more no. of subs with top notch Russian Tech in the allotted budget.
Even then U-214 is my favorite.
 

nrj

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If we select LADA , I am sure we can get more no. of subs with top notch Russian Tech in the allotted budget.
Even then U-214 is my favorite.
Indeed, we can get more number of subs if LADA selected.

However I feel IN should insist on Lithium AIP batteries in Ladas. Lithium is better solution for AIP. It is less flammable than Hydrogen & can result in tremendous electric power.
 

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Some Amur (Lada) submarine model photos -





 

JHA

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^^ There was a mention of some scientist getting award for success in AIP last year in DRDO newsletter..However I am not sure if he was working on lithium Batteries...
getting TOT for AIP will be crucial in this line of submarines. I dont know why we left Sweden out from RFP. They sure make very good AIP SSks..Plus We could have got a lot more in ToT from them when compared to French or, germany...
 

nrj

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^^ There was a mention of some scientist getting award for success in AIP last year in DRDO newsletter..However I am not sure if he was working on lithium Batteries...
The upcoming AUV (Autonomous Underwater Vehicle) project by DRDO & CSIR uses Polymer Lithium batteries for its power. The vehicle has shown successful trials. Maybe the scientist you mentioned belongs to that team. However I am not sure how much that lithium polymer battery can help us in Indigenous AIP. But somehow it'll contribute & I believe work on that started sometime ago.

getting TOT for AIP will be crucial in this line of submarines. I dont know why we left Sweden out from RFP. They sure make very good AIP SSks..Plus We could have got a lot more in ToT from them when compared to French or, germany...
Maybe Swedan is involved or if not Swedan shipyard can approach IN with its solution as project is in early phase. I don't know if France has any potential product to offer us in Project-75 as Scopene is already under construction & so called 'Marlin class' has some enhancements over scorpene rest is similar work.

Russians can fulfill the Project-75 satisfactorily but IN will have to push Russia on AIP or develop it in-house. Russians are not very focused on AIP development as they have already got very good Nuke subs.
 

JHA

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The upcoming AUV (Autonomous Underwater Vehicle) project by DRDO & CSIR uses Polymer Lithium batteries for its power. The vehicle has shown successful trials. Maybe the scientist you mentioned belongs to that team. However I am not sure how much that lithium polymer battery can help us in Indigenous AIP. But somehow it'll contribute & I believe work on that started sometime ago.
Yes..this might be the case...Atleast Now They will be able to absorb Tech offered for AIP..

Maybe Swedan is involved or if not Swedan shipyard can approach IN with its solution as project is in early phase. I don't know if France has any potential product to offer us in Project-75 as Scopene is already under construction & so called 'Marlin class' has some enhancements over scorpene rest is similar work.

Russians can fulfill the Project-75 satisfactorily but IN will have to push Russia on AIP or develop it in-house. Russians are not very focused on AIP development as they have already got very good Nuke subs.
I doubt Sweden will offer something without receiving RFP..
MERLIN is still a paper Sub..Not much scope from russians on further development on AIP..This leaves only Germany and U-214 as option..
 

JHA

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But they will...Sometime back German ambassador had hinted that they have canceled the Pakistani deal just because we were interested in U-214..Anyways germany is known for making Excellent submarines.
 

nrj

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But they will...Sometime back German ambassador had hinted that they have canceled the Pakistani deal just because we were interested in U-214..Anyways germany is known for making Excellent submarines.
The Project-677 conventional submarine is able to cover longer distance in submerged mode (650 miles at speed 3.5 knots) than the Germany and French submarines (420 and 550 miles respectively at the same speed).

Russian 677 submarine has stealthiness superior to that of German design and apparently of French also. The record hydroacoustic antenna surface of the "Amur-1650" coupled with low noisiness level is enough to believe that conventional submarine has better search capability than its German and French prototypes.

Although Germany is known for its export-oriented negotiations & diplomacy so can convince GOI. But the Lada class is at par with the best conventional subs on line with americans in world IMO.
 

nitesh

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JHA

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^^ That is wrong but not unexpected..MDL can delay the delivery any long but ultimately they only will build the subs.
 

nrj

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Spanish S-80 Class Subs

The spanish S-80 class can be a good option for IN. S-80s are sophisticated, comes with AIP & have some similarity with Scorpene...



 

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