Project- 75(I). Next gen subs. RFP issued

Immanuel

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The biggest issue for me is how a good design like Arihant is being under utilized, they need to mass produce this sub, i.e atleast 8 larger Nuke subs based on the INS Aridaman and another 8 with Diesel electric propulsion. The efforts of 30 years is wasted if we only order 4 Arihant class subs. I think the current ATV lines can be expanded to have 3-4 subs being worked on simultaneously at various stages.
 

garg_bharat

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@Immanuel, we do not want scorpene.

The stabilization of scorpene line is false. It is another assembly operation using imported components. Such a stability is equal to long term dependence.
 

MKM

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IN might be thinking BrahMos for submarines, that may be biggest reason for P75I as current design of Scorpenes can't launch BrahMos.
 

aditya g

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You still need a diesel submarine as it is the optimal solution for Arabian sea ops.

And DE subs have several advantages over nuclear subs as well. So you need a mixed force.

Question is which model and vendor? Extend scorpene line or a new one altogether?

@Immanuel, we do not want scorpene.

The stabilization of scorpene line is false. It is another assembly operation using imported components. Such a stability is equal to long term dependence.
 

Zebra

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True, the Scorpene was delayed heavily but the P-75I doesn't offer anything a Scorpene with AIP doesn't. The Scorpene line is now mostly stable and can produce subs with more orders. I think if we order 6 more Scorpene and invest what is being set aside for the P-75I into a Diesel Electric variant of the ATV, then we'd have a home made sub by 2025.
Scorpene deal was signed in a congress govt's era, which represents very typical type of mindset about India.

Now we are talking about entirely different India.

India's requirements are different.

Indeed India needs more subs.

But more Scorpene doesn't suit our requirements.

Correct me.
 

garg_bharat

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@Zebra, the gov may exercise options in scorpene but may not go beyond.

The decision to build more will be taken after successful trial of first ship.
 

Immanuel

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@Immanuel, we do not want scorpene.

The stabilization of scorpene line is false. It is another assembly operation using imported components. Such a stability is equal to long term dependence.
True, I am not a fan of the Scorpene but having another sub type only adds to the problems while not addressing the key need of numbers. While it is true that Scorpene is essentially a assembly job with screw driver tech and the French screwed us over, going for anything else only wastes time (we'd have to wait another 10 years for the 1st P-75I to be inducted), while by ordering 6-9 Scorpenes more right away, we can have these numbers up in the next 10 years.

Numbers is important.
 

Immanuel

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Scorpene deal was signed in a congress govt's era, which represents very typical type of mindset about India.

Now we are talking about entirely different India.

India's requirements are different.

Indeed India needs more subs.

But more Scorpene doesn't suit our requirements.

Correct me.
Scorpene is more than adequate, offcourse the next 6-9 should have more improvements including ability to deploy Nirbhay or Brahmos missiles and its easier done with an existing line than to go for something brand new which as said would take another 10 years to induct. While we can have atleast 6-8 more Scorpenes in the next 10 years.
 

Zebra

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Scorpene is more than adequate, offcourse the next 6-9 should have more improvements including ability to deploy Nirbhay or Brahmos missiles and its easier done with an existing line than to go for something brand new which as said would take another 10 years to induct. While we can have atleast 6-8 more Scorpenes in the next 10 years.
All three projects were perfectly fu*ked by UPA. Scorpene deal, Rafale deal and Project- 75(I).

They did Scorpene deal in such a way that half part get connected to Rafale deal.
If you won't go for Rafale deal, then you won't get Scorpene deal completed.

That is the reason , when they asked to complete Scorpene deal, French automatically started talking for another 90 Rafales.
So that they can get full MMRCA size Rafale job and they can go for final part of Scorpene deal.

This govt's contribution in it in a way that they also prefer to go slow for another aircraft deal and they did nothing for next gen subs.
In other words, they also helped UPA to get going for these drama.

Now you ask for more Scorpenes.
In UPA's tenure there was a news report about Scorpene. Sorry, I can find it on net now, looks like they removed it form net.
In that report they talked lot about it, that it is a net centric submarine and what not...!
The price tag was staggering, $1.3 billion each.

If you still love it, then I don't mind it.
 

Immanuel

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All three projects were perfectly fu*ked by UPA. Scorpene deal, Rafale deal and Project- 75(I).

They did Scorpene deal in such a way that half part get connected to Rafale deal.
If you won't go for Rafale deal, then you won't get Scorpene deal completed.

That is the reason , when they asked to complete Scorpene deal, French automatically started talking for another 90 Rafales.
So that they can get full MMRCA size Rafale job and they can go for final part of Scorpene deal.

This govt's contribution in it in a way that they also prefer to go slow for another aircraft deal and they did nothing for next gen subs.
In other words, they also helped UPA to get going for these drama.

Now you ask for more Scorpenes.
In UPA's tenure there was a news report about Scorpene. Sorry, I can find it on net now, looks like they removed it form net.
In that report they talked lot about it, that it is a net centric submarine and what not...!
The price tag was Staggering, $1.3 billion each.

If you still love it, then I don't mind it.
I know they are expensive, but with the line active and far better Govt. in place, its possible to hammer down the price. Whether we go for the P-75I or not, 3 follow on Scorpenes being discussed + another 6 is not a bad thing to have, we can address the dwindling numbers. I am sure we can easily have 9 more Scorpenes for around 7 Billion.
 

Zebra

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I know they are expensive, but with the line active and far better Govt. in place, its possible to hammer down the price. Whether we go for the P-75I or not, 3 follow on Scorpenes being discussed + another 6 is not a bad thing to have, we can address the dwindling numbers. I am sure we can easily have 9 more Scorpenes for around 7 Billion.
I don't think so. Try it..............................................
 

garg_bharat

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I know they are expensive, but with the line active and far better Govt. in place, its possible to hammer down the price. Whether we go for the P-75I or not, 3 follow on Scorpenes being discussed + another 6 is not a bad thing to have, we can address the dwindling numbers. I am sure we can easily have 9 more Scorpenes for around 7 Billion.
I do not think so.

Scorpene is a small boat. It has limited purpose.

P75i will be a local project. It may not have much French technology at all.
 

garg_bharat

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I think P75i will eventually turn out to be a slightly smaller Arihant, with VLS for cruise missiles and AIP technology for greater underwater endurance.

The concept is similar to Japanese Soryu class.
 

Shadow

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........................................................................
 

Immanuel

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I think P75i will eventually turn out to be a slightly smaller Arihant, with VLS for cruise missiles and AIP technology for greater underwater endurance.

The concept is similar to Japanese Soryu class.
I hope that happens, it doesn't need to be an import.
 

garg_bharat

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I hope that happens, it doesn't need to be an import.
P75i project has not progressed beyond RFI. I think Scorpene consumed too much attention and funds of Navy. Navy itself may not be having clarity on how to proceed with this project.

Navy wants three carriers. Logically it needs 6 SSN to protect these carriers. If SSN are not around, you will need conventional boats with at least two weeks underwater capability. This will not come from Scorpene.

I think SSN is not happening in a hurry. The first reason is of course money as Arihant class is to be completed soonest. Second is fuel availability.
 

garg_bharat

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Kilo is still an excellent coastal sub. It is enough for patrolling in EEZ.

More Kilos will free Scorpene for longer legged ops.

I think nothing wrong in acquiring Kilo 636 class subs to replace existing Kilo 877EKM.
 

tharun

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We don't need P-75I program if we can fire brahmos missile through torpedo tubes...
Brahmos missile is 2 ft in diameter with a length of 8.4 meters and weight of 3000kg
Exocet missile used in kalavari is 1 ft in diameter and length of 4.7m and weight of 670kg ..
I think we need to work on brahmos firing through torpedo tube so we can make more submarines at cheaper cost......
 

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