Project- 75(I). Next gen subs. RFP issued

Superdefender

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@bengalraider, No you understood my post differently. Nirbhaya will be 100% effective if your SEAD/DEAD mission is achieved successfully (you have to fire antiradiation missiles too to take down radars). Pak's air defence is so much weaker than that of China. That's why Nirbhaya from SSK (launched from even distance Arabian sea) will take care Pak. And when you integrate Brohmos-NG with MKI/FGFA, its range will significantly increase and take care of Chinese.
 

abingdonboy

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+1.. I too think Parriakr is the roadblock of Rafale, the more you wait the more you behind the line,
Now he keeps saying "I will save money for India" or nonsense along these lines and seems to be haggling over 100 million here or there (negligable amounts in these mega deals) but is unaware that every day he delays is an addtional cost. He is doing what we despise the most from babus- bean counting, and entirely missing the bigger picture ie the IAF is in a rapid decline; reitring 1-2 SQNs of fighters every year but only 0.8 of a SQN is being inducted (right now the MKI alone) and this when the IAF is already about 15 SQNs short of its sanctioned strength! Do his comments reflect this? Not at all. He is playing a very weird "all is well, all is well, trust me" game which inspires no confidence at all.
 
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abingdonboy

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Agreed, hope one or two Arihant class can act as a SSGN too. SSN is also long away, we won't see them till 2040 or so.
The SSN class will be in service by 2028 but getting adequate numbers will take an age unless parrell productionl lines are in place.

yeah, we hope nine Scorpene's as of now.. no idea they will build more.
True, let's just hope they go for more.

Hope we start the P 75 I work by 2018. which hits the waters once the P 75's are delivered completely
This is doubtful IMO, the RFP will be launched under DPP 2016 this year, 3-4 years for selection and cost negotiations with the first boat coming 4-5 years later. It's a very long way away.
 

Superdefender

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Primary roles
-------------
SSK: Sea denial/blockade/limited antiship capacity
SSN: Escort N-AC safely/blockade/sea denial/more antiship capacity because of nuc reactor
SSBN: Deter country
 

bengalraider

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Actually this pic is of a Russian "revolver" UVLS for the Klub series.
The VLS units we are using currently are of the box type. Revolver type VLS hold many more missiles under the surface but as with all mechanical units there is an issue of the revolver jamming sometimes.
 

Superdefender

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Oh, Brohmos UVLM? Google image search L&T Brohmos UVLM. See that pic - 8 missiles (8-vls). Our Destroyers use something like that produced by Brohmos Aerospace limited.
 

tharun

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How many Brahmos missiles will be fitted inside upcoming submarines?
 

tharun

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This is too much late for procurement...
Japan building a submarine for every two years...and we are still at RFP...
 

abingdonboy

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This is too much late for procurement...
Japan building a submarine for every two years...and we are still at RFP...
UPA sat on P-75(I) for at least 3 years and the NDA have done the same for the past 2 years (under the guise of formulating a better RFP congruent with "Make in India" and the new DPP).

When you have leaders like these, who needs enemies?
 
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Gessler

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Oh, Brahmos UVLM? Google image search L&T Brahmos UVLM. See that pic - 8 missiles (8-vls). Our Destroyers use something like that produced by Brahmos Aerospace limited.
Corrected!

++

As far as P-75I goes, we are most likely to select the S80 Super Scorpene. If not scrap the tender altogether and go with a modified/improved Scorpene with AIP. A VLS fitment might also be possible if we expand the hull a bit.
 

Superdefender

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Corrected!

++

As far as P-75I goes, we are most likely to select the S80 Super Scorpene. If not scrap the tender altogether and go with a modified/improved Scorpene with AIP. A VLS fitment might also be possible if we expand the hull a bit.
Man, I have mentioned those UVLM is for our Destroyers, not P-75I SSKs.
 

Gessler

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Man, I have mentioned those UVLM is for our Destroyers, not P-75I SSKs.
I was correcting your words. You wrote Brahmos as Brohmos.

As of P-75I, whether we really want a VLS or not depends on IN's requirement. If they're ok without it...might as well scrap the tender right away and order +6 more Scorpenes with MESMA-II or DRDO AIP.
 

MKM

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SSK with Brahmos would only be useful against Pakistan, for China the IN needs SSGNs with Brahmos firing capabilty.
You are underestimating SSKs with BrahMos, if these aren't effective than what is use of Scorpenes?
We must have 12 SSKs with BrahMos by 2030 but that doesn't seems possible as only P75I are going to completed at that time, may 1 or 2 more.
Yes we will have 6 SSNs by 2030.
Actually currently we doesn't need anything against Pakistan as I know 3 Augostas are only there capable ships, but China have more ships than toys who are showing there power by sending SSBNs for anti-piracy operations.
 

tharun

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You are underestimating SSKs with BrahMos, if these aren't effective than what is use of Scorpenes?
We must have 12 SSKs with BrahMos by 2030 but that doesn't seems possible as only P75I are going to completed at that time, may 1 or 2 more.
Yes we will have 6 SSNs by 2030.
Actually currently we doesn't need anything against Pakistan as I know 3 Augostas are only there capable ships, but China have more ships than toys who are showing there power by sending SSBNs for anti-piracy operations.
With change in tube dimensions of INS Arihant , we can fit 3 Brahmos in each tube that means 36 Brahmos per SSK or SSBN
 

garg_bharat

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Now he keeps saying "I will save money for India" or nonsense along these lines and seems to be haggling over 100 million here or there (negligable amounts in these mega deals) but is unaware that every day he delays is an addtional cost. He is doing what we despise the most from babus- bean counting, and entirely missing the bigger picture ie the IAF is in a rapid decline; reitring 1-2 SQNs of fighters every year but only 0.8 of a SQN is being inducted (right now the MKI alone) and this when the IAF is already about 15 SQNs short of its sanctioned strength! Do his comments reflect this? Not at all. He is playing a very weird "all is well, all is well, trust me" game which inspires no confidence at all.
How is IAF in rapid decline. By your logic a Su-30 is equal to Mig-21. It is not so.
The fighter strength is not purely number of fighters, but includes quality of fighters.

For example, let us take France, an economy almost of India's size. As we are talking about IAF's wish of inducting fighters of Western standard, the economy required should also of Western standard. So number of planes have to be adjusted as well.

Let us see France AF strength (multi-role fighter only):

Mirage B/C 26
Mirage D/N 84
Rafale 102

Total 212

Let us see IAF's front line strength (multi-role fighter only)

Su-30 240
Mig-29 60
Mirage 2000 40

Total 340

This does not look like an AF in decline.

IAF also has Mig-21UPG (120), Mig-27UPG(40), Jaguar(140) which can be used for attack, if not for air defence/interdiction.

The aircraft need lot of money for maintenance/upkeep. It is not a simple purchase. As a heavy fighter Su-30 is inducted in large numbers, the maintenance/fuel cost is already significant.
 

garg_bharat

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The 42 squadrons is not some magic figure. I feel this number should be around 60.

However it is not possible today as money is limited and production has to pick up.

The biggest hope still is LCA Tejas, if numbers have to increase significantly. This fighter in the cost range of 25-30M and low operating cost is the only one that can fill the numbers.
 

garg_bharat

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The government will keep an eye on all projects and look for efficiency in cost and time. Even sanctioned projects will be evaluated regularly and opportunity to save money will be explored.

I know some people are unhappy. Let it be.
 

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