Project- 75(I). Next gen subs. RFP issued

Anupu

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Soryu is very advanced, so more costly. Had Japs given us those, our P-75I total budget would have increased more.
Yeah It's apparently $12 billion now too... I will look into it more deeply, on a cursory reading offset seems like one of the things Japanese are unsure about. Also there was no official discussion on this with them. They also would have to redesign it to launch Brahmos, but I think that much can be managed.

Uh ? Australia not buying Soryu yet . DCNS and ThyssenKrupp still in the race.
Yeah, that's why I said offered, in case of India they seem to be unsure, there must be something.
 

abingdonboy

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P-75(I) is becoming more and more irrelevent as time goes by IMO. The best course of action is to buy 6-8 more Scorpenes-2 straight from France with parrell production in existing Scorpene lines with MDL. These would be the modified Scorpenes with AIP that DCNS has offered the IN.

This should also be tied with the IN's SSN project and the Barracuda tech can be the basis for the Indian SSN class.

France needs to be embraced as a strategic partner tightly- Rafales, Scorpenes (and hopefully BArracuda tech), Maitri, civlian n-plants (Jaitpur), mega freight train contracts (AREVA) etc etc. This could be a golden opportunity for India if played right. The French are world leaders in many areas and feircly indepedendant unlike many Western nations that are simply poodles of the US.

@Gessler @Kunal Biswas
 

HariPrasad-1

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P-75(I) is becoming more and more irrelevent as time goes by IMO. The best course of action is to buy 6-8 more Scorpenes-2 straight from France with parrell production in existing Scorpene lines with MDL. These would be the modified Scorpenes with AIP that DCNS has offered the IN.

This should also be tied with the IN's SSN project and the Barracuda tech can be the basis for the Indian SSN class.

France needs to be embraced as a strategic partner tightly- Rafales, Scorpenes (and hopefully BArracuda tech), Maitri, civlian n-plants (Jaitpur), mega freight train contracts (AREVA) etc etc. This could be a golden opportunity for India if played right. The French are world leaders in many areas and feircly indepedendant unlike many Western nations that are simply poodles of the US.

@Gessler @Kunal Biswas
The decision to build 6 more scorpene is very good. We must start designing Next gen submarine on ou own as the submarine which exactly addresses our need may not exist anywhere. We must make our requirement weapon on our own LCA, ALH and LCH are the example. They are the weapons designed to meet our requirement. We have made Arihant. We are on the threshold to make AIP cells. We must design the submarine of our choice. We may take assistance from some countries like we did in Arihant's case.
 

Anupu

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P-75(I) is becoming more and more irrelevent as time goes by IMO. The best course of action is to buy 6-8 more Scorpenes-2 straight from France with parrell production in existing Scorpene lines with MDL. These would be the modified Scorpenes with AIP that DCNS has offered the IN.

This should also be tied with the IN's SSN project and the Barracuda tech can be the basis for the Indian SSN class.

France needs to be embraced as a strategic partner tightly- Rafales, Scorpenes (and hopefully BArracuda tech), Maitri, civlian n-plants (Jaitpur), mega freight train contracts (AREVA) etc etc. This could be a golden opportunity for India if played right. The French are world leaders in many areas and feircly indepedendant unlike many Western nations that are simply poodles of the US.

@Gessler @Kunal Biswas
I think they might end up ordering 6 more under current contract (3 more will be ordered, that we are almost sure) . but P-75I has one basic difference, it should be able to launch Brahmos, amur might win there also in yesterday's question hour, parikkar said a line that may mean P-75I is either only for private shipyards, or may involve them building at-least few of them.
 

MKM

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I think they might end up ordering 6 more under current contract (3 more will be ordered, that we are almost sure) . but P-75I has one basic difference, it should be able to launch Brahmos, amur might win there also in yesterday's question hour, parikkar said a line that may mean P-75I is either only for private shipyards, or may involve them building at-least few of them.
Submarine with Brahmos is must.
In Loksabha or RS?
I want to see that speech, do you have source?
 

Anupu

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Submarine with Brahmos is must.
In Loksabha or RS?
I want to see that speech, do you have source?
Here read the last paragraph. He said it in Loksabha. Sorry wasn't yesterday it was 12th of march, pretty recent though.
 

abingdonboy

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I think they might end up ordering 6 more under current contract (3 more will be ordered, that we are almost sure) . but P-75I has one basic difference, it should be able to launch Brahmos, amur might win there also in yesterday's question hour, parikkar said a line that may mean P-75I is either only for private shipyards, or may involve them building at-least few of them.
The 6 follow-on Scorpenes should be pursued at all and this has been strongly hinted by the DM. The P-75(I) seems a bit redundant at this point but it will be good that it is to be given to the private sector either way this is another procurement that seems to be in "go slow mode" intentionally- the RFP hasn't even been released and will be done only under the new DPP 2016 (still weeks away).

As such, I don't see the first P-75(I) being in service for at least another 6-7 years, now it's clear why the follow-on Scorpenes are essential.
 

Superdefender

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SSK with Brahmos would only be useful against Pakistan, for China the IN needs SSGNs with Brahmos firing capabilty.
SSK with Nirbhaya will take care of Pakistan. Brohmos is enough for China. No need for SSGN for now.
 

Superdefender

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SSK with Brahmos would only be useful against Pakistan, for China the IN needs SSGNs with Brahmos firing capabilty.
SSK with Nirbhaya will take care of Pakistan. Brohmos is enough for China. No need for SSGN for now.
 

SajeevJino

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I sure the P 75 I project is more advanced than it's predecessor P 75

there is some addition options for P 75 I

1. AIP or fuel cell
2. VLS to launch Brahmos/Nirbhay
3. Marine delivery vehicle

P 75 lacks two of the above, So no Scorpene's for P 75 I @abingdonboy
 

SajeevJino

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SSK with Brahmos would only be useful against Pakistan, for China the IN needs SSGNs with Brahmos firing capabilty.
100 kilometer off from the battle is a safe operation zone for an Submarine .. I think IN won't go for SSGN ( lets say 32 Brahmos/Nirbhay from an SSGN, while 8 Brahmos from SSK

even Navy's biggest surface fleet only have 16 VLS for Brahmos
 

SajeevJino

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P-75(I) is becoming more and more irrelevent as time goes by IMO.
well do you think the ear of SSK will be over by in next fifty or so years

The best course of action is to buy 6-8 more Scorpenes-2 straight from France with parrell production in existing Scorpene lines with MDL. These would be the modified Scorpenes with AIP that DCNS has offered the IN.
well, the Navy thinks instead of Scorpene, go for advanced one. I love to see the Barracuda SMX Ocean.

This should also be tied with the IN's SSN project and the Barracuda tech can be the basis for the Indian SSN class.
Check above you are on the point, ask the french to assist in the Indian SSN too ..!

France needs to be embraced as a strategic partner tightly- Rafales, Scorpenes (and hopefully BArracuda tech), Maitri, civlian n-plants (Jaitpur), mega freight train contracts (AREVA) etc etc. This could be a golden opportunity for India if played right. The French are world leaders in many areas and feircly indepedendant unlike many Western nations that are simply poodles of the US.
defense minister's next statement, French is costly, I'm not ready to loose Indian tax payer money on such costly items, let me follow how DPRK managed to keep more number of SSK with very less cost

I think DM not interested in Rafale
 

bengalraider

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abingdonboy

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SSK with Nirbhaya will take care of Pakistan. Brohmos is enough for China. No need for SSGN for now.
100 kilometer off from the battle is a safe operation zone for an Submarine .. I think IN won't go for SSGN ( lets say 32 Brahmos/Nirbhay from an SSGN, while 8 Brahmos from SSK

even Navy's biggest surface fleet only have 16 VLS for Brahmos
SSKs are not suited for long endurance/deep ocean deployments and thus the P-75I would have very limited utility against China Brahmos or no Brahmos. The SSK's strength is in littoral waters, beyond that the advantedge is fully with SSN/SSGN.

For China India needs SSN (with land attack capability so perhaps not a full fledged SSGN), the SSK are good enough for the Pakis and very close to Indian shores only.

.

I sure the P 75 I project is more advanced than it's predecessor P 75

there is some addition options for P 75 I

1. AIP or fuel cell
2. VLS to launch Brahmos/Nirbhay
3. Marine delivery vehicle

P 75 lacks two of the above, So no Scorpene's for P 75 I @abingdonboy
The Scorpenes (follow-on) will have 2 of the above, just not Brahmos/Nirbhay firing capabilty.

I'm not proposing Scorpenes instead of the P-75I per se but am saying the Scorpenes should be pursued on a fast track basis as they can be churned out NOW, the P-75(I) is still a LONG way away. This is what the IN and GoI seem to be thinking too and why they are pushing for more (enhanced) Scorpenes.
 

SajeevJino

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do we have any country specific Missiles .. I don't think so.. If Navy starts getting Nirbhay's I think next warships comes with 32 VLS cells to launch both Nirbhay and Brahmos, even we don't have 32 Cell Launchers we have UVLS to laucnh both Bra/Nir

photo shared by @bengalraider long ago

 

abingdonboy

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I think DM not interested in Rafale
He may or may not be but that is irrelevent, the IAF is and crucially so is the PM. MP's comments are all over the place on this subject and he seems utterly clueless to be honest and entirely out of his depth.

It has been made clear in the past few days/weeks that the IGA signed by Hollande and Modi in Delhi on 25 Jan 2016 contained the numbers the IAF needs and Dassualt are already in talks for 90 make in India Rafales.

Maybe MP is simply trying to use childish negotiation tactics, I don't know but his comments do not fit with reality.
 

abingdonboy

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do we have any country specific Missiles .. I don't think so.. If Navy starts getting Nirbhay's I think next warships comes with 32 VLS cells to launch both Nirbhay and Brahmos, even we don't have 32 Cell Launchers we have UVLS to laucnh both Bra/Nir
Country specfic (conventional) missiles are pointless IMO and do not exist in the Indian arsenal. It's interesting that it has been speculated that the P-15B comes with 32 UVLS for Brahmos/Nirbhay SLCM.
 

SajeevJino

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SSKs are not suited for long endurance/deep ocean deployments and thus the P-75I would have very limited utility against China Brahmos or no Brahmos. The SSK's strength is in littoral waters, beyond that the advantedge is fully with SSN/SSGN..
Agreed, hope one or two Arihant class can act as a SSGN too. SSN is also long away, we won't see them till 2040 or so.

For China India needs SSN (with land attack capability so perhaps not a full fledged SSGN), the SSK are good enough for the Pakis and very close to Indian shores only.
I think IN won't go beyond Indian waters during war, since it's has lack of long range replenishment assets. IN keeps it's ships operates under it's defensive umbrella, only P8 I or MiG 29 K go beyond the line.

The Scorpenes (follow-on) will have 2 of the above, just not Brahmos/Nirbhay firing capabilty.


I'm not proposing Scorpenes instead of the P-75I per se but am saying the Scorpenes should be pursued on a fast track basis as they can be churned out NOW, the P-75(I) is still a LONG way away. This is what the IN and GoI seem to be thinking too and why they are pushing for more (enhanced) Scorpenes
yeah, we hope nine Scorpene's as of now.. no idea they will build more.

Hope we start the P 75 I work by 2018. which hits the waters once the P 75's are delivered completely
 

SajeevJino

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He may or may not be but that is irrelevent, the IAF is and crucially so is the PM. MP's comments are all over the place on this subject and he seems utterly clueless to be honest and entirely out of his depth.

It has been made clear in the past few days/weeks that the IGA signed by Hollande and Modi in Delhi on 25 Jan 2016 contained the numbers the IAF needs and Dassualt are already in talks for 90 make in India Rafales.

Maybe MP is simply trying to use childish negotiation tactics, I don't know but his comments do not fit with reality.
+1.. I too think Parriakr is the roadblock of Rafale, the more you wait the more you behind the line,
 

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