Project- 75(I). Next gen subs. RFP issued

threadbrowser

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Very depressing news. We all know how this is going to play out..cost escalations, timeframe slippages and finally a mediocre and nearly obsolete bunch of subs delivered at the end of it. The babus and their political masters must be rubbing their hands with glee laughing at the bonanza in front of them.
 
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Very depressing news. We all know how this is going to play out..cost escalations, timeframe slippages and finally a mediocre and nearly obsolete bunch of subs delivered at the end of it. The babus and their political masters must be rubbing their hands with glee laughing at the bonanza in front of them.
It was poor planning and no follow thru that put us in this position and now the government in their wisdom will make the people pay thru their teeth while they make a little something for themselves. Where are the Scorpenes ??and where are the Kilos ??and now this.
 

youngindian

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Project-75I Becomes India's New Record Defence Programme

09:33 GMT, July 12, 2010 defpro.com | Using the superlative for Indian defence spending and procurement programmes has become a common practice. For months, India's effort to find a new multi-role fighter aircraft for its Air Force, also known as the MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) competition, which may yield an estimated $10.4 billion contract for 126 aircraft to the winning company, was considered to be the most prominent Indian defence programme. It attracted numerous international competitors, offering state-of-the-art aircraft, including the Super Hornet, Eurofighter, Gripen, Rafale, MiG-35 and F-16IL.

Now the superlative for the country's biggest defence programme is attributed to Project-75 India (P-75I) which is to provide the Navy with six next generation diesel-electric submarines. For this purpose, the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) , chaired by Defence Minister A K Antony, recently approved the allocation of Rs 50,000 crore, equalling $11 billion. While according to the DAC, three of the six submarines will be constructed at the Mazagon Docks (MDL) in Mumbai and one at Hindustan Shipyard Ltd (HSL) in Visakhapatnam, the "Times of India" yesterday reported that the two remaining submarines will either be imported or directly or constructed at a private shipyard in India. All work is to be assisted by a foreign collaborator.

There is no specific timeline for the programme, yet. However the programme will be subject to a certain time pressure, as it is estimated that in 2015 the Navy will only be able to operate half of its current fleet of 15 ageing diesel-electric submarines. An Indian official told the "Times of India" that he hopes, the navy will receive its first submarine under P-75I in six to seven years. In light of an almost three-year delay and increasing costs in the ongoing Project-75 for six French Scorpene-class submarines, to be constructed at the MDL shipyard, it remains to be seen if this is an ambitious schedule.

The next step will be to issue a RfP (request for proposal) in order to select a foreign collaborator. Major international export agencies and naval shipyards, probably including Rosoboronexport (Russia), DCNS/Amaris (France), HDW (Germany) and Navantia (Spain), are likely to spring into action as soon as the framework for P-75I is known.

India's next-generation conventionally powered submarines are planned to feature improved stealthy and land-attack capabilities. This will include the integration of an air-independent propulsion (AIP) system, allowing submarines to remain submerged for very long periods. Conventional submarines without an AIP system have to surface regularly in order to refresh the oxygen in the submarine and to recharge their batteries.

In parallel to sustaining an adequate fleet of conventionally powered submarines, India is continuing its efforts to introduce its first nuclear-powered submarine. The Russian-built Akula-II class attack submarine, dubbed K-152 Nerpa, will be leased for ten years as of October and the indigenously developed and constructed INS Arihant is scheduled to enter service by early-2012.

It is obvious that any country spending such amounts for the procurement of new defence technology will likely shift the military balance in the region. To what extent India's next-generation submarine fleet may create such a shifting is questionable. The fact remains, that they will provide the Indian Navy with a significant range of new capabilities to the Indian Navy; a fact which worries countries having their own interests in the region, including China. Li Jie, a researcher at the Chinese Naval Research Institute of the PLA Navy, told the Global Times: "Submarines have always been the Indian Navy's weakness. [...] Those new submarines, along with India's aircraft carrier fleet, will boost the country's presence in the Indian Ocean and change the military climate in Asia." However, a lot of water will flow down the Ganges until the Indian Navy will have an operational naval fleet, as described by Li, which may shape the security-political environment of the region.

http://www.defpro.com/daily/details/612/
 

tarunraju

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$1.8b a piece for AIP diesel submarines will be at the center of all jokes in defence industry circles for a long time.

But then I guess the cost also includes setting up the related shipbuilding facilities at MDL and HSL. The facilities are more valuable. Maybe the next batch of submarines will cost much lower.
 
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Neil

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$1.8b a piece for AIP diesel submarines will be at the center of all jokes in defence industry circles for a long time.

But then I guess the cost also includes setting up the related shipbuilding facilities at MDL and HSL.
i think INDIAN NAVY is sensible enough and knows the price in international market,there is definitely something behind the scenes that we dont know....

the cost does not include any new facilities for the project as the infrastructure developed for scorpene will only be used...
 

Sabir

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I really believe a submarine cum aircraft carrier is feasible. It will carry next generation naval fighters in its belly and pop up only when the fighters need to take off. Any buyer???:happy_2::happy_2::happy_2:
 

Sabir

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I did not know while making the previous post that submarine aircraft carriers existed during second world war. In internet , wikipedia you can get enough articles on it. Here some photos......we can have a different thread on it....



HMS M2 lunching sea plane.



I-400


If we continue discussion on it and post in some blogs very soon it will become a rumour " India building submarine aircraft carrier"......like anti-gravity lifter etc...........
 

Kunal Biswas

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Instead of going foreign scrops we could have use Arihant hardware into a smaller hull with diesel-electric power-plant..
It would have been much cheaper and production could be much faster..
Anyways we already poured m$ therefore no turning back now..
Unfortunately..
 

SHASH2K2

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Does anyone have any Idea about what type of submarines are being procured. will they be attack or Nuclear missile subs? any Idea about types of Submarines competing for this?
 

Sridhar

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Guys , the RFI is just out. It has a long way to go. The price will increase with time too and when the orders are finally placed, the subs will be built in India with ToT. So it is looking good. Hold your horses till we have more details.
The RFI was out 2 years ago and now they are entering into RFP phase.(may be the change from P 75A to P 75I ?)

Indian Navy Project-75A: RFIs Issued for Six Advanced Submarines; Rosoboronexport, Armaris, HDW in the Fray


"After we issued RFIs (request for information) to Russian (Rosoboronexport), French (Armaris) and German (HDW) firms, among others, two rounds of discussions have already taken place. Another round will be held soon before we issue the RFP (request for proposal) or global tender in late-2008 or early-2009," he added.

http://www.india-defence.com/reports/4054
In 2008 the estimate was 30,000 crores now it has become 50,000 may be mainly beacuase of TOT

Indian Navy is now on the look out for six next-generation submarines in a project worth over Rs 30,000 crore.
 
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SHASH2K2

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2 yrs for RFI . 2 more yrs for RFP and 2 yrs for TOT and finally first sub will be build after 5-6 years . by that time cost will reach 100000 crores . and technolagy will be outdated. No doubt there is a Divine power which is protecting Our country and making us progress.
 

nrj

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I'll say if we don't have technology or present capability to build these next-Gen subs then No point in whining about the cost. We are procuring technology not just subs IMO, its like directly giving the knowledge quantum mathematics to 10yr old kid & kid applies it himself.

However, I am wondering if IN changed its operational strategy? If we build more number of subs based on these tech after the current order then I'd consider that IN has made the moves to work on non-surface warfare strategy from just surface oriented warfare strategy.
 
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SHASH2K2

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I'll say if we don't have technology or present capability to build these next-Gen subs then No point in whining about the cost. We are procuring technology not just subs IMO, its like directly giving the knowledge quantum mathematics to 10yr old kid & kid applies it himself.

However, I am wondering if IN changed its operational strategy? If we build more number of subs based on these tech after the current order then I'd consider that IN has made the moves to work on non-surface warfare strategy from just surface oriented warfare strategy.
I am not whining about the Cost of submarines . what I am whining about is delay in procurement and absorbing the technology. Look at scorpene deal and delay and price escalations . Didnot we gained TOT with Scorpene deal as well ? Its not that all our submarines aged up quickly and all of sudden we came to know that our submarine fleet is at its lowest number and we need far more subs than we have now. Navy and Govt of India must have been aware long back about dwindling sub fleet . moreover I am sure it will take at least 5-6 more years to get 1st sub under project 75 and cost will definitely escalate as it has in earlier SUB deal or MRCA as well.
 

nrj

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I am not whining about the Cost of submarines . what I am whining about is delay in procurement and absorbing the technology. Look at scorpene deal and delay and price escalations . Didnot we gained TOT with Scorpene deal as well ? Its not that all our submarines aged up quickly and all of sudden we came to know that our submarine fleet is at its lowest number and we need far more subs than we have now. Navy and Govt of India must have been aware long back about dwindling sub fleet . moreover I am sure it will take at least 5-6 more years to get 1st sub under project 75 and cost will definitely escalate as it has in earlier SUB deal or MRCA as well.

My comment wasn't targeted to you buddy.

@Scorpene deal

I'll just say this - MOD screwed up.

@Regarding delay

Its a complex procedure we execute so I'm afraid we'll have to accept that. Unless some strong, I mean damn strong GOI arises with least internal/external opposition, the delay from various ministries will be always be there. I just hope, even with delay we do add the updated components to those subs so not to let it become obsolete\ just like LCA program. I'm sure IN will take that subs do not become outdated tech even after 5-6years.
 

plugwater

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Instead of going foreign scrops we could have use Arihant hardware into a smaller hull with diesel-electric power-plant..
It would have been much cheaper and production could be much faster..
Anyways we already poured m$ therefore no turning back now..
Unfortunately..
We did have some indigenous project going on. There was a report regarding this, wonder what happened to the project !!

 

nitesh

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ok guys you might feel bad as 20000 cr is gone now :), u have to do little less politicians bashing now

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/nextgen-diesel-submarines-to-be-built-in-indian-shipyard/646060/
NextGen diesel submarines to be built in Indian shipyard

In what will give a major boost to indigenous shipbuilding efforts, the Defence Ministry has decided to manufacture the Navy's next generation diesel submarines at an Indian shipyard with the help of a foreign collaborator. The Navy, at present, is finalising a tender document that will be issued to leading submarine manufacturers across the world for help in the design and construction of six submarines at an Indian shipyard. The cost of the acquisition is pegged at Rs 30,000 crore.

The recently acquired Hindustan Shipyard Limited (HSL) in Vizag is at the top of the list of Indian shipyards being considered for the order.

While private players will be roped in a major way to supply parts and components for the submarines, the final assembly is likely to be done at a government owned shipyard. Other shipyards, including the Mumbai-based Mazgaon Docks Limited (MDL), which is booked until 2018 for the Scorpene class of submarines, are not available for the order.

Sources said that MDL, which has gained the maximum expertise in submarine building within the country, will not be utilised for the next generation of submarines as its order book is full.

The order is being highly anticipated as it would not only create infrastructure at the Indian shipyard but will also provide vital technical knowhow to Indian scientists and engineers working on the project. India is also keen to share knowledge and gain expertise on Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) technology required for the next generation of submarines by the Navy. AIP helps conventional submarines to stay underwater in enemy waters for longer periods, making them a deadly and silent adversary.
 

nandu

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$11 billion second line of submarines for Indian Navy to boost private sector

14 Jul 2010: On 26 Sep 2008 a Pakistani shipyard successfully launched the first Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) submarine in the Indian Ocean, the third of its Khalid Class - Agosta 90B submarines. China meanwhile has 62 submarines of which 10 are nuclear powered.

At the same time, NDTV reports that India will be left with only 9 old submarines by 2012 as two Russian foxtrots will be decommissioned by next year. So on 6 Jul 2010 when Indian Defence Minister A. K. Antony approved a second line of submarines - Project 75(I) to be constructed in India at a cost of 50,000 crore (US$11 billion), it came as a good surprise, doubly so because it is expected to boost private sector contribution in naval projects. In this regard, Manu Sood, Editor 8ak interviewed Maj Gen (retd) Bhupinder Yadav, who heads a small group of retired ex-servicemen in a Defence and Aerospace consulting company Q-tech Synergy.

8ak: How many submarines does the Indian Navy plan to have?

Yadav: The Indian Navy proposes to have a mix of twenty-four nuclear and conventional submarines of the SSK type. With 6 Scorpene and a further 6 Project-75(I) , the remaining 12 subs will be of an indigenous design.

The Indian navy is also planning to build micro-submarines for its strategic operations. An RFP was issued in Nov 2009 to Indian shipyards including Hindustan Shipyards Limited, ABG and Pipavav shipyards, Larsen & Toubro and state-owned Mazagon Docks Limited (MDL). Indian Navy is planning to get five of these vessels at a cost of about $80 million but the inductions can be doubled later on.

8ak: Why is the price almost US$2 billion per submarine whereas strategypage reports US$350 for an AIP submarine?

Yadav: The 2005, Scorpene diesel submarines deal was signed, with an option for 6 more and extensive technology transfer agreements was reported as being in excess of $4 billion. The Proj 75(I) is a Rs 50,000 crore ($10.7 bn) project for building six vessels. These will be new submarine and not the Scorpene and will be a bigger submarine with specific features with key differentiator being a new class of missiles, having some features from the HDW Type 214, the Russian Amur class, the Italian Fincantieri S-1000 in collaboration with Rubin of Russia. The extra cost could be for the new design that will allow the incorporation of future technologies, stealth features, missiles, transfer of technology, Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) and land attack capabilities.

8ak: Why did India not go in for a nuclear submarine instead of diesel electric?

Yadav: The utility of conventional diesel-electric submarines with the introduction of AIP (air-independent propulsion) systems like the French company DCNS' MESMA (Module d'Energie Sous-Marine Autonome) and German fuel cells, even the durations they can stay underwater can be increased substantially. They also have the added advantages of being smaller and cheaper than nuclear submarines. Another reason could have been the recent accident on Submarines both in Russia and India.

8ak: Why are others like Fincanteri, BAE Systems and US manufacturers not in the deal?

Yadav: RFI was sent to French DCNS, Spanish Navantia, Russian Rubin, Italy's Fincantieri and German HDW (now owned by Thyssenkrup). Great Britain and America only build nuclear submarines and not diesel electric.

8ak: The RFI was written up a couple of years ago, so why the delay?

Yadav: RFI was issued on 27 October 2008 for six diesel-electric attack submarines to be built in Indian shipyard, public or private, with special emphasis on full transfer of technology. The subs were to be equipped with air-independent propulsion (AIP) boosting their operational capabilities to have high degree of stealth, land-attack capability and ability to incorporate futuristic technologies. Since this will be a new type of submarine, the details and processing of project of this size does take time. Beside 3 reasons which delayed the project.

* Some stray thought why not go for nuclear submarines, which has its own advantage and disadvantages such as vastly improved range and speeds, but are noisy hence no stealthy operations.
* Time was also wasted on Pull and Push for this crucial programme by the public or private sector. Navy pressing to opt for a shipyard other than the Mazagon Docks, which has its hands full and has been delaying most of the projects.
* Some friendly countries have been trying to put pressure that the additional submarine be procured from them. Hence the delay in RFP.

8ak: Why is the Indian private sector so enthusiastic about this announcement?


Yadav: Public sector shipyards like Mazgaon dock running at full capacity and behind schedule. L&T's excellent performance in the construction of the nuclear submarine and smaller submarine projects has given the Navy and the ministries the confidence in the private sector's ability to deliver quality vessels, systems and on deliver as per schedule. Minimum of one submarine will be built at a private shipyard and a some sub-systems will be supplied by the private sector boosting indigenous capabilities.

http://www.8ak.in/
 

bengalraider

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a likely contender at that price could also be the new BMT SSGT concept who knows we could be partly funding the boat along with the Brits.

New High Mobility Submarine Designed By BMT
11-Feb-2004
An innovative new hybrid gas turbine and fuel cell submarine that can travel faster and further than conventional diesel electric and more quietly than nuclear submarines has been designed by BMT Defence Services Ltd, in consultation with Rolls-Royce, has its UK premiere today. The new concept, known as the SSGT, is superior to the capabilities of the SSK submarine class in many ways; it can travel at speeds of 20 knots for up to 6,000 nautical miles, with short 'sprints' of up to 30 knots. It is also quieter during stealth operations than nuclear powered submarines, which must operate pump machinery continuously.

Dr Andrew Tyler, Managing Director of BMT Defence Services, said: 'The SSGT concept is a major breakthrough in the design history of submarines with the novel but practical application of gas turbine technology. By developing a new hybrid propulsion system BMT has been able to provide greater flexibility in the speed, range and quietness achieved by the vessel. We have been very pleased with how well the concept was received by defence professionals when we announced it at Pacific 2004, the maritime exhibition held recently in Sydney, Australia. We are confident this innovative design will bring the skills of BMT to the attention of navies around the world that need unconventional but non-nuclear submarines.'

The high speed, long endurance transit capability is made possible by an innovative propulsion design which uses twin, independent gas turbine alternator sets, housed in the 'bulb' on top of the fin. When operating in the fast transit mode, the boat operates as a semi-submersible with the bulb positioned above the surface.

For more covert but slower transit requirements, fuel cell stacks provide the ship's services and propulsion power. The stacks take in air from the atmosphere through a snort mast; this then reacts with hydrogen obtained from reformed kerosene, which is carried in external fuel bags mounted under the casing.

In-theatre, SSGT will operate fully submerged, in Air-Independent Propulsion (AIP) mode, for up to 25 days. The fuel cell stacks are fed by liquid oxygen (LOX) stored onboard to permit fully covert operations at up to 10 knots.

The 30 knots sprints confer tactical advantage and are provided by power drawn from a large advanced ZEBRA battery, which also acts as a load leveller during operation of the fuel cells or the gas turbines.

The design offers a flexible mix of vertical and horizontal weapon discharge tubes and unmanned underwater vehicle (UUV) stowage able to satisfy a range of mission profiles. The vessel's systems are fully integrated making it highly capable, cost effective and environmentally sound.
 

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