Project 15 & 17: GoI Funds Plan to Build New Stealth Destroyers

Yusuf

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The cost of $10 billion I think is inclusive of the cost of expansion of both the yards. The cost of each ship is estimated at $900 million. The previous Project 17 costs about $650 million.
Since the whole process of making these ships is different, obviously it's going to cost more. So is the aquisition of the capability.
 
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well i think the P-17A will end up getting the AEGIS radar and SM 2/3 interceptors and the order should go upto 12. Brahmos and possibly nirbhay on it as well.
 

F-14

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Kizer my dear friend 12 PJ-10's What the ..... and the Fearless CM's are not even of the Drawing board
 

p2prada

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I hate to be so pessimistic, but unless the infrastructure at the docks and shipyards is boosted first, this is bound to run into delays, and further increase in costs.

Also, for 7 frigates, $ 9 Billion seems a bit too much. Can somebody explain this?
This project will be the first true attempts at a "stealth" warship in Asia. The $900million rates are cheap considering the capabilities. These ships will be more powerful and sophisticated than the current Mysore class destroyers.
 

Known_Unknown

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This project will the first true attempts at a "stealth" warship in Asia.
I hate to quote badguy on this, but China's Type 054 is also a stealth frigate, similar to our own. And costs less.

The cost of $10 billion I think is inclusive of the cost of expansion of both the yards. The cost of each ship is estimated at $900 million. The previous Project 17 costs about $650 million.
Where did you read that?
 

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Destroyers and Frigates are two different class of ships intended for different roles. Please do not compare a destroyer with a Frigate.
 

p2prada

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I hate to quote badguy on this, but China's Type 054 is also a stealth frigate, similar to our own. And costs less.
The Type 54 and Type 54A is similar to the existing Talwar class frigates. Or you could say the Shivalik class. I cant compare. But, the Project 17A is completely different from the stealthiness proposed by the other 3 classes.

Nothing much is known about the 17A frigates. So, we have to wait for more info.
 

Singh

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Hmm......wonder why these frigates are so costly. Maybe the newspaper made a reporting error. 45,000 crore is a bit exorbitant, no? And that too for an indigenous 7 ship contract for the navy?
Yes 45000crore is exorbitant but could it include part of acquistion and development costs of the various electronic, weapon, radar systems ??
 

badguy2000

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Destroyers and Frigates are two different class of ships intended for different roles. Please do not compare a destroyer with a Frigate.
yes ,DDG is different from FFG.

one DDG ususallly is more heavier ,bigger ,more capable and more expensive than one FFG.

it is very strange that one FFG is more expensive than one DDG.
 

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Whoa ! Thats a big contract !
Wonderful news...!
 

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India’s Project 17-A Stealth Frigates

In our July 2006 article “India Orders 3 More Krivak III/Talwar Class Frigates,” DID noted that the Talwar/Krivak Class were better described as modern multi-role designs, given the presence of other classes with far better stealth features. The follow-on Project 17/ Shivalik Class offered improvements in that area, with 3 ships ordered and the possibility of more too follow.

In December 2006, India Defence reported that India was looking to acquire up to 7 more frigates with stealth improvements, and some level of joint development and technology transfer. The Request for Information (RFI), has reportedly been issued to about 12 European and Russian firms.

These “Project 17A” ships could be worth up to 45,000 crore (INR 450 billion, about $9.23 billion as of June 2009), according to a recently-approved budget. That approval came with a catch, however – one that will change the landscape for firms that wish to bid.

Project 17-A

India Defense characterizes this P-17A project as the next generation ships of the ongoing Project 17 Shivalik class multi-role stealth frigates. Ship “signature reduction” levels are expected to be up to fully modern standards, similar to Singapore’s new Formidable Class frigates from France (a Lafayette Class derivative).

Though Project 17 was approved in 1997, the first Shivalik class ship is only expected in 2009 due to construction delays and other hold-ups. The overall program envisages a total of 12 ships, and the 7 Project 17-A ships would form a part of it.

The proposed P-17A acquisition has had different figures floated. Early figures mentioned Rs 30,000 crore (300 billion Indian rupees, then about $6.7 billion), with expected costs of Rs 4,000 crore (then about $892 million) per ship. March 2009 reports give figures of Rs 17,000 crore, or about $3.3 billion at that time. By June 2009, however, reports of DAC approval mentioned Rs 45,000 crore, or about $9.23 billion total and $1.3 billion per ship. As a basis of comparison, India’s July 2006 order for 3 more Talwar Class frigates amounted to Rs 5,114 crore, or between $400-550 million per vessel.

The other area of uncertainty revolves around the industrial arrangements. Typical Indian contracts involve some number of ships built by the manufacturer and others built at Mazagon Docks Ltd MDL) in Mumbai, or Garden Reach Shipyard (GRSE) in Kolkata. On the other hand, in 2006 Navy Chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta specifically referred to force modernization problems stemming from both constraints on defense budgets, and the inability of Indian shipyards to deliver quickly. He added that:

“It is not necessary that we will take this route [of using MDL or Garden Reach], adding that the other Indian shipyards may step up warship production to meet the projected force levels.”

That option would disappear if these ships use modular construction, based on 300-tonne “blocks” that are fully equipped, and must fit together so precisely that pipes, wiring, and other components all align. MDL and GRSE are the only shipyards with the depth of experience to pull that off, but neither has ever used modular constrction.

Which leads to India’s 3rd option: build some of these ships at foreign shipyards, as the government is doing with its July 2006 “Improved Krivak Class” frigate order. The Navy would prefer to have MDL and/or GRSE workers learn by working at a shipyard with experience in this approach, then bring the skills back to India. As opposed to trying to learn a completely new shipbuilding method, while trying to build Navy ships and having the Navy foot the bill for any mistakes.

Based on past history, and the experience of other countries, India’s Director of Naval Design Rear Adm. Badhwar is clever to be cautious. Mistakes using the new modular method would be extremely expensive. The level of rework required could easily turn the Indian shipyards’ purported 100% cost advantage into a deficit, while creating project delays that would extend for months – and might even be measured in years.

June 19/09: India’s political Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) clears India’s largest ever indigenous defense contract: about Rs 45,000 crore (approximately $) to manufacture 7 Project 17A frigates.

The DAC reportedly made one major change, however, insisting that all 7 warships must be manufactured in India by the Mazagon Dock Ltd. in Mumbai (MDL), and by Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers (GRSE) in Kolkata. Work will be divided between the 2 shipyards, making P17A India’s first dual-shipyard contract.

The DAC has essentially placed a bet that the modular construction approach will be successful without foreign shipyard training during construction of the first 2 ships of class, or that the budget increase to Rs 45,000 crore will cover any unpleasant contingencies. Time will tell whether that proves to be an expensive decision. Indian Express.

March 27/09: French shipbuilder DCNS’ board approves a 3-party design consultancy with Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers (GRSE) of Kolkata, and the I.T. engineers of Infotech Enterprises. The consultancy will design ships for global clients, including back office work for DCNS itself. As India’s Business Standard reports:

“But the first design job that the JV is shooting for is Project 17-A, [which] needs a design partner…. because all seven frigates will be built using an advanced manufacturing process – modular shipbuilding…. Each 300-ton block is built separately, complete with all the piping, electrical wiring and fitments that would be a part of the ship. These must precisely connect…. This is the expertise that DCNS is hoping to sell as the foreign design partner for Project 17-A.”

indian shipbuilders GRSE and MDL are lobbying to have the frigates built entirely in India, and have joined forces to that end. The result may be India’s first dual-shipyard naval contract. Meanwhile, the firms are investing in the equipment required for modular construction, including large covered workshops with sliding roofs for module lift-out, and a 300-tonne, 138m span Goliath crane from Italy’s Fagioli and McNally Bharat Engineering.

March 27/09: India’s Business Standard reports that the crore 17,000 ($ equivalent) Project 17-A contract is stalled due a dispute between India’s Navy, and its 2 major shipyards. The Navy is insisting that the first 2 ships be built in a European shipyard, even if it doubles those ships’ bid cost.

Why? Because these ships will use modular construction based on 300-tonne “blocks” that are fully equipped, and must fit together so precisely that pipes, wiring, and other components all align. Neither Mazagon Dock Limited (MDL) in Mumbai, nor Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers (GRSE) in Kolkata, has ever used this method. The Navy would prefer to have their workers learn by working at a shipyard with experience in this approach, before bringing the skills back to India. Rear Admiral MK Badhwar, India’s Director of Naval Design:

“This will also make the vendor demonstrate ‘buildability.’ He must demonstrate that his design can be actually built into a warship, using modular construction, in four years. That will create a demonstrated benchmark for GRSE and MDL; otherwise, if there are delays later, our shipyards could argue that the foreign yard too would have taken a long period to build each frigate.”

March 6/09: India’s Business Times reports that an overzealous US State Department bureaucrat appears to have created a serious delay in the related Project 17 program, after ordering GE to stop work on the program. Unlike the Krivak III Class, Shivalik Class ships use 2 American LM2500 turbines in place of Russian designs.

If India is lucky, the delay will be only 2 months. If the State Department’s actions cause India to miss sea trials due to the monsoon season, the delay could be many months longer. In the end, all the State Department may succeed in doing is jeopardizing the chances of other American companies under consideration for Indian defense buys. Read “US State Dept. Throws A Wrench Into Exports, Allied Shipbuilding” for more.

Dec 24/07: India Defence relays a story which suggests that state-run arms export agency Rosoboronexport may be negotiating with Indian authorities for the construction of a fresh lot of 3 “stealth frigates.”

From the reports, it would appear that negotiations are for an order over and above the follow-on order for 3 Talwar Class frigates – either more Project 17 Shivalik Class ships, or the initial Project 17A contract. As with all such reports concerning India, however, a wait-and-see attitude is advised.

December 2006: India issues an RFI for “stealth frigates.” They are looking to acquire up to 7 ships under “Project 17A”, along with some level of joint development and technology transfer.

These ships could be modified “Project 17” Shivalik Class frigates, which are an enlarged and enhanced design derived from the Kirvak IIIs. On the other hand, the RFI was issued to a number of foreign shipbuilders, raising the possibility that Project 17A ships could use an entirely different base platform.

India’s Project 17-A Stealth Frigates
 

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Seven new stealth frigates to be built in India

July - 27 - 2009

India’s largest warship builders — Mazagon Dock Ltd (MDL), Mumbai; and Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers (GRSE), Kolkata — have prevailed over the Indian Navy’s objections. Business Standard has learned that MDL and GRSE will divide between them the entire order for seven improved stealth frigates, code-named Project 17A.

The navy was insisting that the first two frigates of Project 17A be built abroad, so that MDL and GRSE could learn how to build ships using new modular methods that are preferred by European shipyards. This would have raised the price of Project 17A by more than Rs 5,000 crore.

MDL and GRSE countered that they possessed the technology and the experience for building cutting-edge warships entirely in India.

Each Shivalik class frigate of Project 17 was priced at Rs 2,600 crore, and the navy plans to insist on the same price for Project 17A. Building abroad would cost at least twice as much as building at MDL and GRSE.

But the navy was focusing on early delivery, rather than cost. Chief of Naval Staff, Admiral Sureesh Mehta, insisted on presenting before the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), the highest decision-making body in the Ministry of Defence (MoD), the advantages of kicking off Project 17A in a foreign shipyard. But Defence Minister AK Antony stepped in to order entirely indigenous production.


At GRSE, a modernisation programme is underway to create the facilities needed for building Project 17A. The Chairman and Managing Director (CMD), Rear Admiral KC Sekhar, said a fully equipped modular yard with a 250-ton Goliath crane will be ready in mid-2011. By then, MoD sanctions will be in place and the navy would have completed the design of Project 17B.

Explaining the time-line, Admiral Sekhar said, “The MoD has informally told us that MDL and GRSE will build Project 17A; we are awaiting [formal sanction]. Once the navy finalises the size and design of the new frigate, we will decide our build strategy and costing. Then, hopefully, by the end of 2009, the MoD will issue a Request for Proposals (RfP); GRSE and MDL will submit separate quotes; and then the MoD will place a formal order on the shipyards. Construction should start by end-2011.”

This is the first time that India’s two major defence shipyards are sharing one project between them. And while MDL and GRSE are bidding separately, they are working in close consultation.

Admiral Sekhar points out that both shipyards have a common aim: to construct this largest-ever order of seven frigates without any delays. He explains, “We will have a common design for all seven ships of Project 17A. MDL can be the lead shipyard, since they have more experience in building bigger ships. They can start work on the first frigate; after six months, we will start work on the second one.”

While MDL takes the lead in construction, GRSE will lead the design effort. A month ago, three companies — GRSE; French shipbuilder, DCNS; and Kolkata-based IT engineering company, Vision Comptech — formed a joint venture (JV) to design marine products, including warships, for customers globally. This JV is expected to work with the navy’s Directorate General of Naval Design (DGND) on the design for Project 17A.

If all goes well, say the shipyards, the first Project 17A frigates should be delivered to the Indian Navy by 2016-17.

IDRW.ORG Blog Archive Seven new stealth frigates to be built in India
 

p2prada

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By then, MoD sanctions will be in place and the navy would have completed the design of Project 17B.

This is from the article in post 34. So, there is a new frigate design. Interesting.
 

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Seven new stealth frigates to be built in India

Seven new stealth frigates to be built in India

India’s largest warship builders — Mazagon Dock Ltd (MDL), Mumbai; and Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers (GRSE), Kolkata — have prevailed over the Indian Navy’s objections. Business Standard has learned that MDL and GRSE will divide between them the entire order for seven improved stealth frigates, code-named Project 17A.

The navy was insisting that the first two frigates of Project 17A be built abroad, so that MDL and GRSE could learn how to build ships using new modular methods that are preferred by European shipyards. This would have raised the price of Project 17A by more than Rs 5,000 crore.

MDL and GRSE countered that they possessed the technology and the experience for building cutting-edge warships entirely in India.

Each Shivalik class frigate of Project 17 was priced at Rs 2,600 crore, and the navy plans to insist on the same price for Project 17A. Building abroad would cost at least twice as much as building at MDL and GRSE.

But the navy was focusing on early delivery, rather than cost. Chief of Naval Staff, Admiral Sureesh Mehta, insisted on presenting before the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), the highest decision-making body in the Ministry of Defence (MoD), the advantages of kicking off Project 17A in a foreign shipyard. But Defence Minister AK Antony stepped in to order entirely indigenous production.

At GRSE, a modernisation programme is underway to create the facilities needed for building Project 17A. The Chairman and Managing Director (CMD), Rear Admiral KC Sekhar, said a fully equipped modular yard with a 250-ton Goliath crane will be ready in mid-2011. By then, MoD sanctions will be in place and the navy would have completed the design of Project 17B.

Explaining the time-line, Admiral Sekhar said, “The MoD has informally told us that MDL and GRSE will build Project 17A; we are awaiting [formal sanction]. Once the navy finalises the size and design of the new frigate, we will decide our build strategy and costing. Then, hopefully, by the end of 2009, the MoD will issue a Request for Proposals (RfP); GRSE and MDL will submit separate quotes; and then the MoD will place a formal order on the shipyards. Construction should start by end-2011.”

This is the first time that India’s two major defence shipyards are sharing one project between them. And while MDL and GRSE are bidding separately, they are working in close consultation.

Admiral Sekhar points out that both shipyards have a common aim: to construct this largest-ever order of seven frigates without any delays. He explains, “We will have a common design for all seven ships of Project 17A. MDL can be the lead shipyard, since they have more experience in building bigger ships. They can start work on the first frigate; after six months, we will start work on the second one.”

While MDL takes the lead in construction, GRSE will lead the design effort. A month ago, three companies — GRSE; French shipbuilder, DCNS; and Kolkata-based IT engineering company, Vision Comptech — formed a joint venture (JV) to design marine products, including warships, for customers globally. This JV is expected to work with the navy’s Directorate General of Naval Design (DGND) on the design for Project 17A.

If all goes well, say the shipyards, the first Project 17A frigates should be delivered to the Indian Navy by 2016-17.

Seven new stealth frigates to be built in India
 

natarajan

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I think we should get some second hand battle cruisers from russia to cop up with china(pak will shit in their pant)
 

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Battle cruisers?...why do we need them?...Our destroyers are fair enough.
 

venom

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Battle cruisers?...why do we need them?...Our destroyers are fair enough.
We have 8 destroyers - 5 Rajput Class & 3 Delhi Class

Ships [Rajput Class]
Name Pennant Builder Commissioned
INS Rajput D51 61 Kommunara Shipbuilding Plant 30 Sep 1980
INS Rana D52 61 Kommunara Shipbuilding Plant 28 Jun 1982
INS Ranjit D53 61 Kommunara Shipbuilding Plant 28 Nov 1983
INS Ranvir D54 61 Kommunara Shipbuilding Plant 28 Oct 1986
INS Ranvijay D55 61 Kommunara Shipbuilding Plant 15 Jan 1988

Ships [Delhi Class]
Name Pennant Builder Commissioned
INS Delhi D61 Mazagon Dock Limited 15 Nov1997
INS Mysore D60 Mazagon Dock Limited 02 Jun 1999
INS Mumbai D62 Mazagon Dock Limited 22 Jan 2001

The Oldest Rajput Class is 29 years old & the Newest is 21 so by So by 2014-2018 all the Rajput Class Destroyers will be retired And the 1st of Kolkata Class destroyers will be commissioned in 2012, 2nd in 2013 & 3rd in 2014 [ expect some delays ]. So by 2016 we will be left with only 6 destroyers hence if wont be a bad idea to modify & upgrade some out of service Soviet heavy cruisers which pack a deadly punch.
 

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India’s Project 17-A Stealth Frigates

28-Jul-2009 10:33 EDT


India Defense characterizes this P-17A project as the next generation ships of the ongoing Project 17 Shivalik class multi-role stealth frigates. Ship “signature reduction” levels are expected to be up to fully modern standards, similar to Singapore’s new Formidable Class frigates from France (a Lafayette Class derivative).

Though Project 17 was approved in 1997, the first Shivalik class ship is only expected in 2009 due to construction delays and other hold-ups. The overall program envisages a total of 12 ships, and the 7 Project 17-A ships would form a part of it.

The proposed P-17A acquisition has had different figures floated. Early figures mentioned Rs 30,000 crore (300 billion Indian rupees, then about $6.7 billion), with expected costs of Rs 4,000 crore (then about $892 million) per ship. March 2009 reports give figures of Rs 17,000 crore, or about $3.3 billion at that time. By June 2009, however, reports of DAC approval mentioned Rs 45,000 crore, or about $9.23 billion total and $1.3 billion per ship. As a basis of comparison, India’s July 2006 order for 3 more Talwar Class frigates amounted to Rs 5,114 crore, or between $400-550 million per vessel.

The other area of uncertainty revolves around the industrial arrangements. Typical Indian contracts involve some number of ships built by the manufacturer and others built at Mazagon Docks Ltd MDL) in Mumbai, or Garden Reach Shipyard (GRSE) in Kolkata. On the other hand, in 2006 Navy Chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta specifically referred to force modernization problems stemming from both constraints on defense budgets, and the inability of Indian shipyards to deliver quickly. He added that:

“It is not necessary that we will take this route [of using MDL or Garden Reach], adding that the other Indian shipyards may step up warship production to meet the projected force levels.”

That option would disappear if these ships use modular construction, based on 300-tonne “blocks” that are fully equipped, and must fit together so precisely that pipes, wiring, and other components all align. MDL and GRSE are the only shipyards with the depth of experience to pull that off, but neither has ever used modular constrction.

Which leads to India’s 3rd option: build some of these ships at foreign shipyards, as the government is doing with its July 2006 “Improved Krivak Class” frigate order. The Navy would prefer to have MDL and/or GRSE workers learn by working at a shipyard with experience in this approach, then bring the skills back to India. As opposed to trying to learn a completely new shipbuilding method, while trying to build Navy ships and having the Navy foot the bill for any mistakes.

Based on past history, and the experience of other countries, India’s Director of Naval Design Rear Adm. Badhwar is clever to be cautious. Mistakes using the new modular method would be extremely expensive. The level of rework required could easily turn the Indian shipyards’ purported 100% cost advantage into a deficit, while creating project delays that would extend for months – and might even be measured in years.July 27/09: India’s Business Standard reports that shipbuilder MDL and GRSE have prevailed over the Indian Navy’s objections, and will divide Project 17A between them with no foreign construction. GRSE Chairman and Managing Director Rear Admiral KC Sekhar believes that a fully equipped modular yard with a 250-ton Goliath crane will be ready in mid-2011. The report adds:

“Each Shivalik class frigate of Project 17 was priced at Rs 2,600 crore, and the navy plans to insist on the same price for Project 17A…. But Defence Minister AK Antony stepped in to order entirely indigenous production…. Explaining the time-line, Admiral Sekhar said, “The MoD has informally told us that MDL and GRSE will build Project 17A; we are awaiting [formal sanction]. Once the navy finalises the size and design of the new frigate, we will decide our build strategy and costing. Then, hopefully, by the end of 2009, the MoD will issue a Request for Proposals (RfP); GRSE and MDL will submit separate quotes; and then the MoD will place a formal order on the shipyards. Construction should start by end-2011.”


India’s Project 17-A Stealth Frigates
 

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