Prince Rurik's real ancestry

Razor

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Studies of genetic diversity provide some indication of the origin and expansion of the Viking population. Haplogroup I-M253 (defined by specific genetic markers on the Y-chromosome) mutation occurs with the greatest frequency among Scandinavian males: 35 percent in Norway, Denmark, and Sweden, and peaking at 40 percent within western Finland.
The y-DNA thingy. Well, at best it means the Vikings humped a lot of Finnish women.
The r1a1a y-DNA is found in highest frequency in Poland. Doesn't mean these people are originally from Poland.

Vikings are a Germanic group and Finns are a Finno-Ugric. I can't understand why you are unable to comprehend this.

One of the reasons for that is that every country needs a "national story" to make people proud. Sweden lost its empire 200 years ago, Norway and Denmark was occupied by Germans in few days at WWII, Norway had huge problems with Quisling and collaboration. They sure could use some glorious Viking past.

Finland did not need those, at first we were under Czar rule when Vikings became relevant at the end of 19th century, Then after independence we got Winter War, so we did not need any other hero myths. This Viking era is really something that needs further studies, our archeologist should study more, now they all are silent. Recent discoveries are made by hobbyists, not official archeologists.
Well, the Scandinavians have a viking history and therefore they are proud of it and proclaim it.
Finland has a history of being ruled by Norsemen (and slavs) and therefore they are quiet.

Most of Russia's North-West Federal District up to the Urals were populated by Finno-Ugric tribes.
When the Slavs started moving into the region, the Finno-Ugric tribes presented little resistance and most quietly assimilated into Slavic culture from "Finnish culture."
 
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jouni

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Compared to the Russian paintings these finnish ones look like childish crayon drawings.
Obviously you do not study art or history based on your comments. Your attitude and scope of understanding seem to be like with those Indian IT-engineers that my friends always talk about.
 

Ray

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Compared to the Russian paintings these finnish ones look like childish crayon drawings.
Painting is based on the genre or a style or category of art, music, or literature.

There are many such genres.

Therefore, one genre cannot compare with another.

This is Piacasso's 'Weeping Woman'


Now, to some it may look like a child's painting and even that having gone astray. :)

And this is from John Constable


Just can't be compared with paintings of another genre.

and this a typical MF Hussien


And here is mine

and
 
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Razor

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Obviously you do not study art or history based on your comments. Your attitude and scope of understanding seem to be like with those Indian IT-engineers that my friends always talk about.
:D

1. I did not study art but it isn't difficult to see that the quality Russian painting is superior to that Finnish painting :taunt:
2. I do study history (not fairy tales) as a hobby and I bet I can beat you in that department.
3. Your friends are wrong. I'm not an IT engineer. I'm studying electrical engineering. :thumb:
But of course I can code. Anybody with some understanding of logic and basic intelligence (too bad for you :taunt: ) can code.
 

Mad Indian

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Obviously you do not study art or history based on your comments. Your attitude and scope of understanding seem to be like with those Indian IT-engineers that my friends always talk about.
And obviously you dont understand genetics ,art or history judging from your posts. The link you have given actually proves that Finns were not Norsemen from the single fact that it was not the center point of viking migration. If Finns actually had founded the vikings, then the center of Finland would be where the haplogroup would be concentrated and not in the "western" part of finland and this haplotype would have spread "around" the finns into Russia instead of "stopping" at western finland. At the very least, it should have a uniform distribution in the whole finland , instead of in the "western finland", which is adjacent to scandinavia. What it means in simple words is that @Razor 's understanding of that subject is better than yours- vikings were based of scandianavia-Norway, denmark, sweden and that the vikings had humped a lot of western finland.

Studies of genetic diversity provide some indication of the origin and expansion of the Viking population. Haplogroup I-M253 (defined by specific genetic markers on the Y-chromosome) mutation occurs with the greatest frequency among Scandinavian males: 35 percent in Norway, Denmark, and Sweden, and peaking at 40 percent within western Finland.
Honestly are you the typical product of that famous finnish education system? :rolleyes:
 
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jouni

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:D

1. I did not study art but it isn't difficult to see that the quality Russian painting is superior to that Finnish painting :taunt:
2. I do study history (not fairy tales) as a hobby and I bet I can beat you in that department.
3. Your friends are wrong. I'm not an IT engineer. I'm studying electrical engineering. :thumb:
But of course I can code. Anybody with some understanding of logic and basic intelligence (too bad for you :taunt: ) can code.
1. You seem to be a smart kid. Studying art might broaden your horizons.
2. For you fairy tales, for me unchartered waters. Maybe the difference of Indian and Finnish psyche.
3. Congrats, combine that with knowledge of history and arts and you are a winner.
 

jouni

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And obviously you dont understand genetics ,art or history judging from your posts. The link you have given actually proves that Finns were not Norsemen from the single fact that it was not the center point of viking migration. If Finns actually had founded the vikings, then the center of Finland would be where the haplogroup would be concentrated and not in the "western" part of finland and this haplotype would have spread "around" the finns into Russia instead of "stopping" at western finland. At the very least, it should have a uniform distribution in the whole finland , instead of in the "western finland", which is adjacent to scandinavia. What it means in simple words is that @Razor 's understanding of that subject is better than yours- vikings were based of scandianavia-Norway, denmark, sweden and that the vikings had humped a lot of western finland.



Honestly are you the typical product of that famous finnish education system? :rolleyes:
Finnish kingdom was northern and eastern part of Finland. They conquered Norway and took over the royal crown. They were not Vikings. Finnish sagas tell about the Nordic kingdoms Kalevala - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

This is a wide issue. I must study more. Finnish kingdom vs Vikings is an epic story untold ;)
 
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Razor

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Interesting I always thought all Scandinavians were Vikings?
Yes.

Vikings belong to the Scandinavian group which is also known as "North Germanic tribes."

But I think you are confusing the terms Nordic and Scandinavian.

Finns are not Scandinavians. They were under Scandinavian (and Slavic) boots for all of their history except last century.

Finns can be included in the recent term "nordic."

Scandinavian and Nordic are not the same, even though many people (incorrectly) use them in an interchangeable fashion.
 

pmaitra

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Interesting I always thought all Scandinavians were Vikings?
@Razor is correct, and if I may add, Finns are descended from the Finno-Ugric or Ugro-Finn tribes.

Finno-Ugric peoples

Excerpt:
The Finno-Ugric peoples are any of several peoples of Eurasia who speak languages of the Finno-Ugric group of the Uralic language family, such as the Khanty, Mansi, Hungarians, Maris, Mordvins, Sámi, Estonians, Karelians, Finns, Udmurts and Komis.
Here are some examples of people from the regions highlighted above:


Arsen Pavlov aka Motorola is from Komi.


Ruslan Provodnikov, a Russian boxer, is from Khanty-Mansisk.


A Sámi woman.
 
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pmaitra

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There are Finns almost everywhere in Russia, because Russia is the ancestral homeland of the Finns, and by far not the present day Finland. I suspect @jouni might disagree with me here, but that is ok.

There is also a person, who could be a real person, or myth, or whose "historical" accounts could be part real and part myth, but let us see what we can find out about him. This person is called Ilya Muromets. He is a called Muromets because he was from a place called Murom (is it the same as Mari-El, Udmurtiya?), just like a person from Afghanistan would be called Afghanets. So, Ilya Muromets was from Murom, or was a Muromian, who are also called Volga Finns. @Cadian, could you please tell us more about Ilya Muromets other than what Wiki tells us, and on the subject of this post in general?

Ilya Muromets

Ilya Muromets


Interestingly, Ilya Muromets was a bogatyr (богатырь), which in Turkic becomes bagatur, and in Hindi and Urdu becomes bahadur.

Another bogatyr was called Dobrynya Nikitich, who is known to have defeated a triple-headed dragon called Zmey Gorynych.

Zmey Gorynych

Zmey Gorynych


As it might be obvious, what we know about these characters is most likely partly true and partly myth, but, they are interesting nonetheless.
 
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jouni

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Before the Viking era 4th – 7th century AD Finland was relatively strong and independent i.e. in armory and jewelry making. Also Finland had strong trade links to Baltic and middle Europe not trough Scandinavia, not forgetting the Finno-Ugrian tribes, which were occupying the land far till the Ural mountains in the east (2000 km X 2000 km). The history hasn't explained why the Vikings didn't occupy Finland even thou they were influencing and terrorizing the whole Europe and were dominating the river routes in Russia - it has been claimed that the land was too difficult to access and travel and there were not big cities where the valuable goods could be found, which lowered the interest to occupy it. But is that the whole truth, maybe or maybe not. Lets think if there were organized state or chieftain system with accountable armed forces that prevented the possible occupation?



Aleksur blogged: The Nordic Kings Family Tree / alternative version of Nordic history

Olaus Magnus' Carta Marina (1500) defines the Finnish area as: Finlandia-Vel-Finningia Olim Regnum, the ancient Finnish Kingdom.





 
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Kay

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@jouni
Your post reminded me of AOE :)
 
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jouni

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@jouni
Your post reminded me of AOE :)
Yeah, never played it, I had to google, to get your point. Finnish Empire was one of the biggest in Europe, almost as big as Roman Empire.
 
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Kay

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Finnish culture it seems a lot more ancient than Norse culture.
Maps of Neolithic, Bronze Age & Iron Age migrations in Europe and the Near East - Eupedia
https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/human-journey/
But ancient Finnish cultures got assimilated with Norse cultures (hence the Finnish Sagas and The Kalevala). It would be interesting to know what and how the cultures learned from each other. E.g. the Indo-Aryans learned agriculture, city-building, use of cattle, etc. from the Indus Valley civilization. The later learned about horses, chariots and warfare. Their gods got assimilated into the Rig Vedic civilization.
I would be happy to be provided some article links (not books please) about the religion and social life of the Finnish people before and after contact with Norsemen - how they interacted and changed.
 

jouni

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Finnish culture it seems a lot more ancient than Norse culture.
Maps of Neolithic, Bronze Age & Iron Age migrations in Europe and the Near East - Eupedia
https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/human-journey/
But ancient Finnish cultures got assimilated with Norse cultures (hence the Finnish Sagas and The Kalevala). It would be interesting to know what and how the cultures learned from each other. E.g. the Indo-Aryans learned agriculture, city-building, use of cattle, etc. from the Indus Valley civilization. The later learned about horses, chariots and warfare. Their gods got assimilated into the Rig Vedic civilization.
I would be happy to be provided some article links (not books please) about the religion and social life of the Finnish people before and after contact with Norsemen - how they interacted and changed.
Here is something of Sami people, they live in the north and interacted with Norse men, I try to get also more
*The Saami - Samisk - Sámi*: The Ancient Gods of the Sami – De gamle samiske gudene
 
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pmaitra

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Ancient matrix of 33.3 km in Finland., page 1

Ancient Ley lines in Finland, the genius of Finnish Kingdom. Ley lines mark the places of holy places of old, new conquerors built their churches on top of those to get rid of them.
Excerpt from this link, with commentary added:

The book deepens further and speculates that the old Finnish Kingdom had more influence that has ever been discussed. That old bloodlines of Finnish Kings exists in the traditional Kingdoms beside us (Sweden, Norway, England"¦) There are many references in old Sagas of this ancient Kingdom, this tribe, this beginning of Royal bloodlines, but it has never been speculated like this. [Agreed. This is speculation.] Considering the latter part as a speculation or a fact, it still gave me a new perspective and a new direction to study further in. Finland is commonly known for being under foreign influence during our time in history. We fought and got our independence in 1917. [Finland's independence was served on a platter by Vladimir Lenin. There was no fight for independence. There would have been, had the Bolsheviks lost the Civil War.] Maybe there has been a time of prosperity that we aren't aware of!
Hang in there. More to follow. ;)

@Razor, keep an eye on this thread. :D
 
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Kay

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@jouni
Nice links. Ancient cultures are truly amazing. Didn't know about Sami people before. had to look up Wikipedia :)
I love the age before metal.
 
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