Prep: Indo-Pak War Game Simulation

[Karthi]

Most of the Akash SAM are deployed in Assam . Army using mobile Akash to protect battle groups . So I just plotted the range of interception ie 30 Kms to protect Indian Airbases in the border. Assuming we moved Akash to forward sites

 

[Karthi]

HQ 16 Islamabad Pakistan . Range 40 Km interception range.

BMD Radars , Greenpine , Swordfish , VLRTR . @scatterStorm bro you can suggest changes .

 

[mist_consecutive]

@scatterStorm @Karthi I recommend rather than posting what SAMs/Radars are being used at what location, prefer hiding these details from the enemy, and let them find out using ELINT (if they can).

 

[scatterStorm]

It will take some time to familiarise these things .

I'll add formulas to our TAC view sheet, gimme this day. I can prep a computer program, but that will be over kill, spreadsheet are best for these.

 

[scatterStorm]

View attachment 47728

Most of the Akash SAM are deployed in Assam . Army using mobile Akash to protect battle groups . So I just plotted the range of interception ie 30 Kms to protect Indian Airbases in the border. Assuming we moved Akash to forward sites

karachi, port harbor tactical radar, range almost 300km

 

[Karthi]

@scatterStorm @Karthi I recommend rather than posting what SAMs/Radars are being used at what location, prefer hiding these details from the enemy, and let them find out using ELINT (if they can).

No picture upload option in chat

 

[scatterStorm]

@Karthi, lets keep the SAM, Radar plots, Terrain, Waypoint and Angel data over PMs.

 

[scatterStorm]

-----------------------------------Air Combat Rule Proposal-----------------------------------

1. Individual fighters will have their BVR & WVR attack ratings. For example,
   • Su-30MKI - BVR (8/10), WVR (9/10)
   • F-16A/B - BVR(7/10), WVR (7/10)
     
     BVR will account for both radar + missile in the account, I gave F-16A/B a worse rating in BVR even though having a better BVR A2A (AMRAAM) is because Su-30MKI has OLS Passive infrared sensor.
     
     WVR will account for maneuverability + short-range A2A missile + HMD.
2. Individual fighters will have their BVR & WVR defense ratings. For example,
   • Su-30MKI - BVR (5/10), WVR (3/10)
   • F-16A/B - BVR (6/10), WVR (4/10)
     
     Su-30MKI gets poor BVR defense because it has huge RCS and average acceleration. WVR again huge size and big nozzle give greater heat-signature.
     F-16A/B gets better BVR defense because of a smaller size than greater acceleration to make maneuvers. In WVR not much defense but the smaller size and single nozzle give + higher acceleration give better survivability.
     
     I will try to create an impartial rating for all IAF/PAF planes if this plan is given go-ahead.
3. Movement Rules -
   1. Define a unit of time (I suggest 1 hr)
   2. Peacetime movements, any unit/squadron can move from one airbase to others in one unit time.
   3. During attack mode (Under attack by an opponent, or going for an attack), normal movement speed will be 1000km/h on a real map, whatever unit of time it takes to reach.
      
      For example, Srinagar airbase is under PAF attack, I want to send reinforcement in Kashmir from Gwalior (Madhya Pradesh), it will take 2 units of time to reach Kashmir. Whereas PAF will commence attack and go back in 1 unit time (will discuss this later).
4. Attack Rules-
   1. Indo-Pak map will be divided into 50X50 km grids.
   2. Two teams can attack each other if they are in the same grid.
   3. Attack will be turn-wise, i.e., if one attacks, other defends, and in next round, vice-versa.
   4. The party commencing the first attack will have the first attack chance and bonus damage to opponent.
   5. If two teams are in the same grid, the grid will be further divided into 25 X 25 km blocks (that creates 4 blocks in one 50 X 50 grid).
      1. Teams will attack in BVR when they are in different blocks and other parties will defend in BVR.
      2. Teams will attack and defend in WVR when they are in the same 25 X 25 block.
      3. Losses will be calculated after one attack-defense round (for both parties) using this formula -
         
         Team 1 Current Damage = (Sum(Team 2 Attack) - Sum(Team 1 Defense)) / 10
         Team 1 Carry Over Damage = (Sum(Team 2 Attack) - Sum(Team 1 Defense)) % 10
         
         Losses for current round = Team 1 Current Damage + (Team 1 Previous Carry Over Damage) / 10
         
         Carry Over Damage at attack start for attacking party = 0
         Carry Over Damage at attack start for defending party = 10 (One plane lost due to surprise attack).
         
         Note:- Damage restored to 0 after landing at Airbase.
         
         Losses can be attributed to the choice of jets team wants (If I have 2 Mig-21 and 2 Su-30MKI, and my 2 jets get shot down, I can choose to down my 2 Mig-21s).
         
         *If you guys are scratching heads over the formula, I will make a small automation program to play this formula out
         
         
      4. If I am in the different block from the enemy, and enemy commences the attack, I can choose to either -
         • Run away (move to next 50 X 50 block)
         • Wait and defend (I will have a BVR attack move in next turn).
         • Advance and defend (I will move to the same 25 X 25 block as the enemy, while BVR defending, next round will be WVR attack for me).
         • Run-away can only opted for max 3 consecutive times.
      5. If I am in the same block of the enemy, and enemy commences the attack, I can choose to either -
         • Defend WVR and move to BVR. The next round will be my BVR attack and opponent's BVR defense.
         • Defend WVR and remain at same block. The next round will be my attack WVR and opponent's attack WVR.
      6. One block to another movement only possible when defending.

Let's look at the attack example to understand better.

View attachment 47674


Red - 2 X F-16A/B, attack BVR(7/10), WVR (7/10), defence BVR (6/10), WVR (4/10)
Green - 2 X Su-30MKI attack BVR (8/10), WVR (9/10) defence BVR (5/10), WVR (3/10)

Case 1: Red attacks BVR first, Green chooses run away.
Result - No damage to any party. Green out of the current 50 X 50 block.

Case 2: Red attacks BVR first, Green stays and defends BVR.
Result - Damage to Green = (7 + 7) - (5 + 5) / 10 + 1 = 1 (planes lost), carry over = 4 damage
Damage to Red = (8 + 8) - (6 + 6) / 10 = 0 planes lost, carry over = 4 damage

Case 3: Red attack BVR first, Green moves to the same block as the attacker while defending BVR
Result - Damage to Green = (7 + 7) - (5 + 5) / 10 + 1 = 1 (planes lost), carry over = 4 damage
Damage to Red = (9 + 9) - (4 + 4) / 10 = 1 (plane lost), carry over = 0 damage


And other imaginable scenarios. The reason to make it this complicated is because, as you can see, it gives dynamic nature to air combat.



For now this much, if you guys like my idea, I will integrate rules for AWACS, SAM sites, Ground bombing, and others.
@Bhumihar
@Karthi

Grid system concept is used as MGRS NATO standards. Good Concept, I vouch for this.

 

[scatterStorm]

For the sake of simplicity and limited conflict, let's assume that A2A missiles/ammo inventory is infinite (But not cruise/ballistic missiles). Anyway, Pakistan has roughly ~500 AMRAAMs that I believe are enough for conflict.

Missile inventory is an important parameter, it must be a finite value.

 

[mist_consecutive]

No picture upload option in chat

You can add a picture through URL, upload your picture to Imgur and add a link. Maybe @LurkerBaba can add the "add file" option to add pictures in chat ?

Missile inventory is an important parameter, it must be a finite value.

I advise against it. Reason -

• We will have to keep track of how many missiles and of what type are loaded on each aircraft, keeping count is hard.
• Missle buying/manufacturing will come in the picture, not sure how that will be handled.
• If above is to be implemented, then you have to keep a tab on friendly countries that will sell you missile, plus you also have to keep a tab on some monetary figure, otherwise, I will just buy an infinite amount of missiles.
• Aircrafts running out of missiles need to be taken into picture.
• If we grade missiles with BVR/WVRs, we have to keep track of their BVR/WVR attack points changing.

 

[LurkerBaba]

You can add a picture through URL, upload your picture to Imgur and add a link. Maybe @LurkerBaba can add the "add file" option to add pictures in chat ?

Done

 

[vampyrbladez]

You can add a picture through URL, upload your picture to Imgur and add a link. Maybe @LurkerBaba can add the "add file" option to add pictures in chat ?



I advise against it. Reason -

• We will have to keep track of how many missiles and of what type are loaded on each aircraft, keeping count is hard.
• Missle buying/manufacturing will come in the picture, not sure how that will be handled.
• If above is to be implemented, then you have to keep a tab on friendly countries that will sell you missile, plus you also have to keep a tab on some monetary figure, otherwise, I will just buy an infinite amount of missiles.
• Aircrafts running out of missiles need to be taken into picture.
• If we grade missiles with BVR/WVRs, we have to keep track of their BVR/WVR attack points changing.

@scatterStorm

@mist_consecutive

We can limit missiles to BVR and WVR attacks. For example Su 30 MKI has 12-14 hardpoints.

From Wikipedia we know it can carry :

• Rockets:
  • 4 × S-8
  • 4 × S-13
• Missiles:
  • Air-to-air missiles:
    • 10 × R-77
    • 10 × Astra
    • 6 × R-27ER/ET
    • 2 × R-27R/T
    • 6 × R-73
    • 3 × K-100
  • Air-to-surface missiles:
    • 3 × Kh-59ME
    • 6 × Kh-29T/L

Thus an MKI in BVR configuration will have 10 BVR attacks, 2 WVR attacks with 2 fuel/sensor/jammer pods assuming 14 hardpoints.

In BVR dogfighting configuration it could have 4 BVR, 4 WVR attacks.


Attack Damage (Platform) ~ (1/Weight of Aircraft)

Defence Ability (Platform) ~ (1/Weight of Aircraft)

Weight of Aircraft ~ (No. of missiles + fuel + empty weight of Aircraft)


Platform Attack / Defence is the gun damage and a measure of it's base value as discussed earlier. For aircraft without guns, this attack move will be nullified but data will still be used in BVR and WVR Attack / Defence scenario. (May be used only once if in WVR.)

Once all moves have been expended Aircraft will attempt to return to base (RTB) automatically unless redirected not to. Here Aircraft is most vulnerable and may be taken out by the OPFOR if not managed properly.


Type of missile may add to the Attack Damage of the Aircraft. Newer ones will get more bonuses.

Missile	Attack	Defence
R 77	+2	-1 (RCS reduction)

AIM 120 C5	+3	-1 (RCS reduction)
'Peregrine'	+3	+1 (Small size / Small RCS)

 

[vampyrbladez]

@mist_consecutive



Can't we map RCS of aircraft with range using a modifier?

Platform	RCS	Radar Range	Detection Range (D)	Scale	No. of Blocks	Modifier Visibility (V) = (D/S)*NB
Su 30 MKI	5-6	200 (N011 BARS)	140	10	3	4.2 ~ 4
F 16 BLK 52	5	150 (APG 68)	105	10	3	3.15 ~ 3

Thus visibility of nearby tiles using modifier for Su 30 MKI is 4 and F 16 is 3. Bear in mind that this is head on mode. Alternate modes may change the values as per the situation.

Detection Range Calculator -

https://www.translatorscafe.com/unit-converter/en-US/calculator/radar-max-range/

RCS Table (Approximate/Unconfirmed) -

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/stealth-aircraft-rcs.htm


If WT (Weather and Terrain modifier) is used as well then the value of modifier Vwt is :

Vwt = V*WT= 4*(0.25) = 1 Tile

Given V = 4 ; WT = 0.25

(Needs more study into radar and weather correlation here.)


Keep up the excellent work bro!

This can also be mapped to WVR and BVR attack behavior in terms of missile range.

 

[mist_consecutive]

@scatterStorm

@mist_consecutive

We can limit missiles to BVR and WVR attacks. For example Su 30 MKI has 12-14 hardpoints.

From Wikipedia we know it can carry :

• Rockets:
  • 4 × S-8
  • 4 × S-13
• Missiles:
  • Air-to-air missiles:
    • 10 × R-77
    • 10 × Astra
    • 6 × R-27ER/ET
    • 2 × R-27R/T
    • 6 × R-73
    • 3 × K-100
  • Air-to-surface missiles:
    • 3 × Kh-59ME
    • 6 × Kh-29T/L

Thus an MKI in BVR configuration will have 10 BVR attacks, 2 WVR attacks with 2 fuel/sensor/jammer pods assuming 14 hardpoints.

In BVR dogfighting configuration it could have 4 BVR, 4 WVR attacks.


Attack Damage (Platform) ~ (1/Weight of Aircraft)

Defence Ability (Platform) ~ (1/Weight of Aircraft)

Weight of Aircraft ~ (No. of missiles + fuel + empty weight of Aircraft)


Platform Attack / Defence is the gun damage and a measure of it's base value as discussed earlier. For aircraft without guns, this attack move will be nullified but data will still be used in BVR and WVR Attack / Defence scenario. (May be used only once if in WVR.)

Once all moves have been expended Aircraft will attempt to return to base (RTB) automatically unless redirected not to. Here Aircraft is most vulnerable and may be taken out by the OPFOR if not managed properly.


Type of missile may add to the Attack Damage of the Aircraft. Newer ones will get more bonuses.

Missile	Attack	Defence
R 77	+2	-1 (RCS reduction)

AIM 120 C5	+3	-1 (RCS reduction)
'Peregrine'	+3	+1 (Small size / Small RCS)

Question here, why will the attack damage be inversely proportional to the weight of aircraft?
Defence ability I understand that it might be more sluggish, but plethora of other factors like EW, and a good self-protection suite matters more. e.g., Mig-21 will have outdated RWR and no MAWS, Rafale has excellent electronic attack and protection capability using SPECTRA.

And I really did not want to include individual missile factor because it will force the mods to keep track of each and every missile fired.
@scatterStorm @Bhumihar @Karthi what are your opinions?

 

[vampyrbladez]

Question here, why will the attack damage be inversely proportional to the weight of aircraft?
Defence ability I understand that it might be more sluggish, but plethora of other factors like EW, and a good self-protection suite matters more. e.g., Mig-21 will have outdated RWR and no MAWS, Rafale has excellent electronic attack and protection capability using SPECTRA.

If an aircraft isn't kinematic enough, it will suffer in terms of performance in WVR fights. Particularly in the 'gun' fight move (once per battle). Thus attack is affected by weight.

SPECTRA, ELTA 8222 WB Jammer, etc add and negate values same as missiles.

Pod	Attack	Defence
SPECTRA	+3	+2 (Integrated; RCS and kinematic savings)
ELTA 8222 WB	+2	-0.75 (RCS)
SAP 518	+2	-1.25 (RCS)

And I really did not want to include individual missile factor because it will force the mods to keep track of each and every missile fired.
@scatterStorm @Bhumihar @Karthi what are your opinions?

I didn't want the war game to feel like an 'arcade' game. Make the participants think before they attack since they have finite number of moves, factor in evasive measures if the attack fails. That requires logical thinking.

For that very purpose I attached missiles to attacks. 4 missiles = 4 attacks. Stats add or negate damage potential. Much simpler than tracking each missile fired.

Before WVR Attack

After 2 WVR Attacks (Multiple attacks per turn)

Eurofighter Typhoon now will have a lower attack damage potential. Red squares are negative on kills. Green are positive/confirmed kills. Helps participants to visualise actions better in real time.

(Keep in mind hours of battles may take many days or weeks in real time.)

We will need a Post Mortem Analysis team to go over the senario bit by bit and come out with Do's and Don'ts for each side. This is a moderator + observer joint effort.

 

[vampyrbladez]

If an aircraft isn't kinematic enough, it will suffer in terms of performance in WVR fights. Particularly in the 'gun' fight move (once per battle). Thus attack is affected by weight.

SPECTRA, ELTA 8222 WB Jammer, etc add and negate values same as missiles.

Pod	Attack	Defence
SPECTRA	+3	+2 (Integrated; RCS and kinematic savings)
ELTA 8222 WB	+2	-0.75 (RCS)
SAP 518	+2	-1.25 (RCS)

I didn't want the war game to feel like an 'arcade' game. Make the participants think before they attack since they have finite number of moves, factor in evasive measures if the attack fails. That requires logical thinking.

For that very purpose I attached missiles to attacks. 4 missiles = 4 attacks. Stats add or negate damage potential. Much simpler than tracking each missile fired.

Before WVR Attack

After 2 WVR Attacks (Multiple attacks per turn)

View attachment 47868

Eurofighter Typhoon now will have a lower attack damage potential. Red squares are negative on kills. Green are positive/confirmed kills. Helps participants to visualise actions better in real time.

(Keep in mind hours of battles may take many days or weeks in real time.)

We will need a Post Mortem Analysis team to go over the senario bit by bit and come out with Do's and Don'ts for each side. This is a moderator + observer joint effort.

Use a photographic representation. Also need some 'Tour Of Duty' mods to help out with the effort.

GREEN (INDIA)	RED (PAKISTAN)	BLUE (UN) (MODS)
5	5	2

1 : 5 mods ratio is minimum for a game.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Hi guys,

If you are really interested in reading about indo pak or indo china war scenario, read the highly existing books on these scenarios written by vivek Ahuja. The name of the books are Chimera and Phoenix. Some part of those books exist in Bharat Rakshak as well.

 

[Jaymax61]

Been away from this thread for a long while.

I just picked up an existing wargame on the Cold Scenario. Rules makers everything.

As per seller - this is a simplified scenario (about 2 hours to complete). Will give it a spin and create a thread on it.

 

[Jaymax61]

Been away from this thread for a long while.

I just picked up an existing wargame on the Cold Scenario. Rules makers everything.

As per seller - this is a simplified scenario (about 2 hours to complete). Will give it a spin and create a thread on it.
View attachment 52183

Wargame thread is up and running.

Wargame Review : Next War - India Pakistan

All the talk of wargaming got me super interested. Picked up two I could find. The first one This game is about a brutal short campaign of heavy attrition that can go nuclear any time. Combat is division level and Units get taken out pretty quick. (Designers note its not that the unit is...

defenceforumindia.com

 

[Super Flanker]

SD-10 is use same Seeker of older Agat's
Chinese missile are Due for Jamming
From modern System like D-29

P-15 Equals To Derby ER in Terminal Performance
Missile range Also depends on JF-17 Doppler radar Performance

MICA RF as Advanced as AIM-120C5 in Some case Better

Yes you are right. Another proof that the SD-10 is not a good missile is that Pakistan Airforce did not use it Against Indian Jets on 27th February.

They had used AMRAAM AIM-1205C Missiles and even Risked breaking the User Agreement between Pakistan and America which prohibits the use of the F-16s and the AIM-1205C AMRAAM Missiles against Indian Assets, this shows that how much they trust even these Missiles than the Chinese Missiles.

This here itself proves that the SD-10/PL-12 is infact inferior to the AMRAAM AIM-1205C.

Another thing that I would like to add here and one of our SU-30 MKI (Callsign Avenger 1) had manged to easily Evade 4-5 AMRAAM AIM-1205C So I don't think so that these PL-12/SD-10s will he a problem for our SU-30 MKI as we will be able to easily Jam these Missiles.

(Picture of the PL-12/SD-10 active radar-guided beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile)