Prep: Indo-Pak War Game Simulation

Bhadra

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@Bhadra @Ketamine

What should be the smallest unit in the sim? I am tempted to say Brigade.

Your thoughts?
The smallest unit for simulation is an Infantry battalion. an SF team, Company PARA, Company Border Scouts. One squadron of armour or one combat team. one fire unit (battery of guns), One fighter bomber sortie, one flight, one helicopter flight, Salvos of rockets and missiles, composite AD teams or squads, one engineer task force (equivalent to a company) One assault Engineer squadron, One bridging company, one Mine Laying party, One platoon of ATk missiles, One Recce and support company, One company of EW Regt, One SATA battery. one Company EME, One company of transport, one petroleum platoon / water tankers, one ADS and one company Pioneers and one platoon/troop of Provost. Besides these ammunition replenishment organisation of Ordinance.
 

Jaymax61

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The smallest unit for simulation is an Infantry battalion. an SF team, Company PARA, Company Border Scouts. One squadron of armour or one combat team. one fire unit (battery of guns), One fighter bomber sortie, one flight, one helicopter flight, Salvos of rockets and missiles, composite AD teams or squads, one engineer task force (equivalent to a company) One assault Engineer squadron, One bridging company, one Mine Laying party, One platoon of ATk missiles, One Recce and support company, One company of EW Regt, One SATA battery. one Company EME, One company of transport, one petroleum platoon / water tankers, one ADS and one company Pioneers and one platoon/troop of Provost. Besides these ammunition replenishment organisation of Ordinance.
Bina software ke prabhu... bina software ke.

Unless we buy a simulation kit all these rules can't be accounted for.
 

Bhadra

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They will infiltrate into indian territory and will try to do extensive damage to our social fabric by causing riots and indiscriminate killings and perhaps even try to take out major bridges and roads in mountains and other places. To take care of those minions we need a strong homeland security apparatus.
Terrorist's primary role during war will be to reinforce their Paramilitary Forces such as Mujahid and Ranger battalions. You will find then on the border or in the forward war zones doing protective duties..
 

Bhadra

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Bina software ke prabhu... bina software ke.

Unless we buy a simulation kit all these rules can't be accounted for.
Those the units and subunits which has to be accounted for in comparative strength and obtaining possible results. The operations will be conducted keeping in view the number of those units and subunits.
 

Hellfire

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I had started out with 20Kms - they say great minds think alike.
I gave this figure to factor in a sort of realism.

This figure roughly holds for any surprise offensive's maximum potential to exploit a breach in defenses before the logistics start becoming a limiting factor for the attacking force, assuming there is no town/city/strongpoint that needs to be captured, within these 20 kms.
 

AsuraKiller203

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ISI is vary Pro Agency And logical
It need a very Sophisticated Mind To understand the "Maarkhoor"

Don't think them as Religious nitwits They have one of the most Sophisticated minds Pakistan has to offer

ISI is more ahead than even CIA in terms in hum-int And R&AW
Master i In unconventional war and Creating Non state Fringe Assets For this Purpose they use
Islam As a Tool

Utilization Of various terrorist Networks for Pakistan's National Interest Use of Covert Action division


How To weaponize Sex as Tool they have Thousand of vish Kanaya's or hoories Spread-ed in Form of
Journalists And Diplomats around the globe

Hundreds Of Professional Indian armed Forces men And Diplomats Trapped by ISI
Civilians,Bureaucrats and officials

Paying Of Foreign Lobbies And LW journalist's

ISI is vary Pro Agency And logical
It need a very Sophisticated Mind To understand the "Maarkhoor"

Don't think them as Religious nitwits They have one of the most Sophisticated minds Pakistan has to offer

ISI is more ahead than even CIA in terms in hum-int And R&AW
Master i In unconventional war and Creating Non state Fringe Assets For this Purpose they use
Islam As a Tool

Utilization Of various terrorist Networks for Pakistan's National Interest Use of Covert Action division


How To weaponize Sex as Tool they have Thousand of vish Kanaya's or hoories Spread-ed in Form of
Journalists And Diplomats around the globe

Hundreds Of Professional Indian armed Forces men And Diplomats Trapped by ISI
Civilians,Bureaucrats and officials

Paying Of Foreign Lobbies And LW journalist's

Roger sir!
 

Suryavanshi

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Dont hard code them. It kills the fun and makes the game predictable.

Take this example - Air combat (unlike Army which gets multiple attacks, Air Combat will be resolved in 1 turn)

Random number generation (1-10) Team with higher number gets fire solution first

Combat firing model

Number of Jets * Random Number Generation (1-10) to get lock ons * Random number generation (1-10) to get hits

No of volleys - each team will get 1 extra volley for these conditions met

Team to get first fire solution gets one additional volley
Team which has Airborne Radar gets one additional volley

e.g. IAF and PAF commit 10 fighters each with Airborne Radar on both sides

IAF gets first shot, one additional shot for winning the first shot and one shot for Airborne Radar
PAF gets one shot and one additional for airborne radar

Shot 1
IAF - 10 Jets * Random Number for lock on (6) * Random hit generator (5) ---- 10*6*5/100 = 300/3 = 3 kills

Shot 2

IAF = 10 Jets * Random number for lock on (3)* Random hit (5) ----- 10*3*5/100 = 1.5 (round down) = 1 Kill
PAF = 7 Jets * Random lock on (5) * Random hit (5) ---- 7*5*5/100 = 1.75 ( Round down) = 1 Kill

After Shot 2 both sides kills deducted

Shot 3
IAF = 9 Jets *Random Lock on (4)* Random Hit(6) ------ 9*4*6/100 = 2.16 (round down) = 2
PAF = 6 Jets * Random Lock on (5)* Random Hit (5) -------6*5*5/100 = 1.5 (round down) = 1


Skirmish concludes with IAF at 8 Jets and PAF at 5. Team with most kills is considered to have completed the mission.
Mate can u explain it a bit more, modeling aerial combat will be a difficult job but we have to do it in a way which make it close to reality.

Can u program this mechanism in a Computer code, it will be difficult to calculate it time and time again.
If we could write a code and just puch in the numbers and parameters we will be able to make it fast.

I will be on paki side.
Sure I'll be adding u soon.
 

Ujjain

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Terrorist's primary role during war will be to reinforce their Paramilitary Forces such as Mujahid and Ranger battalions. You will find then on the border or in the forward war zones doing protective duties..
Interestingly, during track two dialogues, Pakistanis used to bark about using non state actors in the manner I mentioned before and I belive them because they have been using those maniacs in such manner. Only in a war scenario those incidents may increase manifolds because of terrorist infiltration and their sleeper cells activating in huge numbers(similar to mukti bahini).
 

BangaliBabu

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anybody interested for taking up the role of Indian Coast Guard and Coastal Defence Forces?? It's a two-roles combined task force btw.......
 

Karthi

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In my imagination the war will Start like this.

Year 2020 December Massive operation of Indian Army and Airforce Eliminated more than 100 Terrorists in a month. Terrorists planed to avenge.

Year 2021, New Delhi attacked by Pakistan based Terrorists , Mumbai Model Terrorist attack on January 26 , more than 300 innocent live's lost . Indian government ordered IAF to destroy Terrorists launch pad Deep inside Pak territory.

Just my imagination
 

mist_consecutive

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-----------------------------------Air Combat Rule Proposal-----------------------------------
  1. Individual fighters will have their BVR & WVR attack ratings. For example,
    • Su-30MKI - BVR (8/10), WVR (9/10)
    • F-16A/B - BVR(7/10), WVR (7/10)

      BVR will account for both radar + missile in the account, I gave F-16A/B a worse rating in BVR even though having a better BVR A2A (AMRAAM) is because Su-30MKI has OLS Passive infrared sensor.

      WVR will account for maneuverability + short-range A2A missile + HMD.
  2. Individual fighters will have their BVR & WVR defense ratings. For example,
    • Su-30MKI - BVR (5/10), WVR (3/10)
    • F-16A/B - BVR (6/10), WVR (4/10)

      Su-30MKI gets poor BVR defense because it has huge RCS and average acceleration. WVR again huge size and big nozzle give greater heat-signature.
      F-16A/B gets better BVR defense because of a smaller size than greater acceleration to make maneuvers. In WVR not much defense but the smaller size and single nozzle give + higher acceleration give better survivability.

      I will try to create an impartial rating for all IAF/PAF planes if this plan is given go-ahead.
  3. Movement Rules -
    1. Define a unit of time (I suggest 1 hr)
    2. Peacetime movements, any unit/squadron can move from one airbase to others in one unit time.
    3. During attack mode (Under attack by an opponent, or going for an attack), normal movement speed will be 1000km/h on a real map, whatever unit of time it takes to reach.

      For example, Srinagar airbase is under PAF attack, I want to send reinforcement in Kashmir from Gwalior (Madhya Pradesh), it will take 2 units of time to reach Kashmir. Whereas PAF will commence attack and go back in 1 unit time (will discuss this later).
  4. Attack Rules-
    1. Indo-Pak map will be divided into 50X50 km grids.
    2. Two teams can attack each other if they are in the same grid.
    3. Attack will be turn-wise, i.e., if one attacks, other defends, and in next round, vice-versa.
    4. The party commencing the first attack will have the first attack chance and bonus damage to opponent.
    5. If two teams are in the same grid, the grid will be further divided into 25 X 25 km blocks (that creates 4 blocks in one 50 X 50 grid).
      1. Teams will attack in BVR when they are in different blocks and other parties will defend in BVR.
      2. Teams will attack and defend in WVR when they are in the same 25 X 25 block.
      3. Losses will be calculated after one attack-defense round (for both parties) using this formula -

        Team 1 Current Damage = (Sum(Team 2 Attack) - Sum(Team 1 Defense)) / 10
        Team 1 Carry Over Damage = (Sum(Team 2 Attack) - Sum(Team 1 Defense)) % 10

        Losses for current round = Team 1 Current Damage + (Team 1 Previous Carry Over Damage) / 10

        Carry Over Damage at attack start for attacking party = 0
        Carry Over Damage at attack start for defending party = 10 (One plane lost due to surprise attack).

        Note:- Damage restored to 0 after landing at Airbase.

        Losses can be attributed to the choice of jets team wants (If I have 2 Mig-21 and 2 Su-30MKI, and my 2 jets get shot down, I can choose to down my 2 Mig-21s).

        *If you guys are scratching heads over the formula, I will make a small automation program to play this formula out 😁

      4. If I am in the different block from the enemy, and enemy commences the attack, I can choose to either -
        • Run away (move to next 50 X 50 block)
        • Wait and defend (I will have a BVR attack move in next turn).
        • Advance and defend (I will move to the same 25 X 25 block as the enemy, while BVR defending, next round will be WVR attack for me).
        • Run-away can only opted for max 3 consecutive times.
      5. If I am in the same block of the enemy, and enemy commences the attack, I can choose to either -
        • Defend WVR and move to BVR. The next round will be my BVR attack and opponent's BVR defense.
        • Defend WVR and remain at same block. The next round will be my attack WVR and opponent's attack WVR.
      6. One block to another movement only possible when defending.
Let's look at the attack example to understand better.

basicplan.png



Red - 2 X F-16A/B, attack BVR(7/10), WVR (7/10), defence BVR (6/10), WVR (4/10)
Green - 2 X Su-30MKI attack BVR (8/10), WVR (9/10) defence BVR (5/10), WVR (3/10)

Case 1: Red attacks BVR first, Green chooses run away.
Result - No damage to any party. Green out of the current 50 X 50 block.

Case 2: Red attacks BVR first, Green stays and defends BVR.
Result - Damage to Green = (7 + 7) - (5 + 5) / 10 + 1 = 1 (planes lost), carry over = 4 damage
Damage to Red = (8 + 8) - (6 + 6) / 10 = 0 planes lost, carry over = 4 damage

Case 3: Red attack BVR first, Green moves to the same block as the attacker while defending BVR
Result - Damage to Green = (7 + 7) - (5 + 5) / 10 + 1 = 1 (planes lost), carry over = 4 damage
Damage to Red = (9 + 9) - (4 + 4) / 10 = 1 (plane lost), carry over = 0 damage


And other imaginable scenarios. The reason to make it this complicated is because, as you can see, it gives dynamic nature to air combat.



For now this much, if you guys like my idea, I will integrate rules for AWACS, SAM sites, Ground bombing, and others.
@Bhumihar
@Karthi
 

Waanar

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@Bhumihar bro, anyone taking the role of LeT, JeM, Ghazwatul Hind and the new Tanzeem group? I know we have Hafiz Saeed but what about the groups?
I don't know much about aerial and naval fights but I can think of innovative and traditional ways guerrillas will try to be relevant somehow in a clash where they're nigh irrelevant.
If we don't have someone playing this role or even if we do, I opt for being a 72 virgin waamen perforating lil pipe sucker.
Who do I coordinate with here then?
 

AsuraKiller203

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-----------------------------------Air Combat Rule Proposal-----------------------------------
  1. Individual fighters will have their BVR & WVR attack ratings. For example,
    • Su-30MKI - BVR (8/10), WVR (9/10)
    • F-16A/B - BVR(7/10), WVR (7/10)

      BVR will account for both radar + missile in the account, I gave F-16A/B a worse rating in BVR even though having a better BVR A2A (AMRAAM) is because Su-30MKI has OLS Passive infrared sensor.

      WVR will account for maneuverability + short-range A2A missile + HMD.
  2. Individual fighters will have their BVR & WVR defense ratings. For example,
    • Su-30MKI - BVR (5/10), WVR (3/10)
    • F-16A/B - BVR (6/10), WVR (4/10)

      Su-30MKI gets poor BVR defense because it has huge RCS and average acceleration. WVR again huge size and big nozzle give greater heat-signature.
      F-16A/B gets better BVR defense because of a smaller size than greater acceleration to make maneuvers. In WVR not much defense but the smaller size and single nozzle give + higher acceleration give better survivability.

      I will try to create an impartial rating for all IAF/PAF planes if this plan is given go-ahead.
  3. Movement Rules -
    1. Define a unit of time (I suggest 1 hr)
    2. Peacetime movements, any unit/squadron can move from one airbase to others in one unit time.
    3. During attack mode (Under attack by an opponent, or going for an attack), normal movement speed will be 1000km/h on a real map, whatever unit of time it takes to reach.

      For example, Srinagar airbase is under PAF attack, I want to send reinforcement in Kashmir from Gwalior (Madhya Pradesh), it will take 2 units of time to reach Kashmir. Whereas PAF will commence attack and go back in 1 unit time (will discuss this later).
  4. Attack Rules-
    1. Indo-Pak map will be divided into 50X50 km grids.
    2. Two teams can attack each other if they are in the same grid.
    3. Attack will be turn-wise, i.e., if one attacks, other defends, and in next round, vice-versa.
    4. The party commencing the first attack will have the first attack chance and bonus damage to opponent.
    5. If two teams are in the same grid, the grid will be further divided into 25 X 25 km blocks (that creates 4 blocks in one 50 X 50 grid).
      1. Teams will attack in BVR when they are in different blocks and other parties will defend in BVR.
      2. Teams will attack and defend in WVR when they are in the same 25 X 25 block.
      3. Losses will be calculated after one attack-defense round (for both parties) using this formula -

        Team 1 Current Damage = (Sum(Team 2 Attack) - Sum(Team 1 Defense)) / 10
        Team 1 Carry Over Damage = (Sum(Team 2 Attack) - Sum(Team 1 Defense)) % 10

        Losses for current round = Team 1 Current Damage + (Team 1 Previous Carry Over Damage) / 10

        Carry Over Damage at attack start for attacking party = 0
        Carry Over Damage at attack start for defending party = 10 (One plane lost due to surprise attack).

        Note:- Damage restored to 0 after landing at Airbase.

        Losses can be attributed to the choice of jets team wants (If I have 2 Mig-21 and 2 Su-30MKI, and my 2 jets get shot down, I can choose to down my 2 Mig-21s).

        *If you guys are scratching heads over the formula, I will make a small automation program to play this formula out 😁

      4. If I am in the different block from the enemy, and enemy commences the attack, I can choose to either -
        • Run away (move to next 50 X 50 block)
        • Wait and defend (I will have a BVR attack move in next turn).
        • Advance and defend (I will move to the same 25 X 25 block as the enemy, while BVR defending, next round will be WVR attack for me).
        • Run-away can only opted for max 3 consecutive times.
      5. If I am in the same block of the enemy, and enemy commences the attack, I can choose to either -
        • Defend WVR and move to BVR. The next round will be my BVR attack and opponent's BVR defense.
        • Defend WVR and remain at same block. The next round will be my attack WVR and opponent's attack WVR.
      6. One block to another movement only possible when defending.
Let's look at the attack example to understand better.

View attachment 47674


Red - 2 X F-16A/B, attack BVR(7/10), WVR (7/10), defence BVR (6/10), WVR (4/10)
Green - 2 X Su-30MKI attack BVR (8/10), WVR (9/10) defence BVR (5/10), WVR (3/10)

Case 1: Red attacks BVR first, Green chooses run away.
Result - No damage to any party. Green out of the current 50 X 50 block.

Case 2: Red attacks BVR first, Green stays and defends BVR.
Result - Damage to Green = (7 + 7) - (5 + 5) / 10 + 1 = 1 (planes lost), carry over = 4 damage
Damage to Red = (8 + 8) - (6 + 6) / 10 = 0 planes lost, carry over = 4 damage

Case 3: Red attack BVR first, Green moves to the same block as the attacker while defending BVR
Result - Damage to Green = (7 + 7) - (5 + 5) / 10 + 1 = 1 (planes lost), carry over = 4 damage
Damage to Red = (9 + 9) - (4 + 4) / 10 = 1 (plane lost), carry over = 0 damage


And other imaginable scenarios. The reason to make it this complicated is because, as you can see, it gives dynamic nature to air combat.



For now this much, if you guys like my idea, I will integrate rules for AWACS, SAM sites, Ground bombing, and others.
@Bhumihar
@Karthi

I like this idea. Thats a lot of work. Please put up calculators to work the equations so both sides can calculate potential gain/loss quickly from each tactical move and decide accordingly. Thanks.
 

AsuraKiller203

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I see some1 mentioned, penalties for civilian losses.

For the scenario, instead of civilian damages resulting in negative penalty, I propose something more realistic. No penalty for paki mil but penalty for Indian mil as pakis have never cared for civies.

1) If Paki mil causes paki civilian losses>>> Result> No penalty to paki side. No gain/loss points accrue to either party.

2) If paki mil causes Indian civilian losses>>> Result>> No penalty to paki side. Small Penalty to Indian side. Negatives points accrue to Indian side.
( In real world, the world media has never cared for loss of hindu/eastern lives. Plus Indian civ losses only puts more pressure on Indian govt to stop the war and causes loss of economy etc, pakis might actually benefit from it. So this is the logic behind this proposition. )

3) If Indian mil causes paki civil losses>>> Result>>>> No Penalty to Indian side, No gain to Indian side. No gain/loss points accrue to either party.

4) If Indian mil causes Indian civ losses>>>Result>>> Small penalty to Indian side. Negative points accrue.

Gist is that during war, Indian military is responsible for both protection of indian civilians & assets plus achieving military objectives. While Paki military is only responsible for military objectives. Pakis only care to fight to survive another day. They dont care for long term economic losses as their rich mai-baaps US, China can always throw economic crumbs at them and bail them out later.

Secondly, Pakis having no penalty for paki civilian losses opens up more realistic ways for pakis to manage the war outcome. Playing part of paki isi I have some applicable scenarios in mind if the above proposal is accepted.
 

AsuraKiller203

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I understand each tactical maneuver is a turn and each side acts turn wise. I suggest allowing set time period of 24 or 48 hours for each side to post their turns so each team internally has enough time to discuss pros/cons of each move. In this way, the war game would probably go on for a month. Do you guys have the same timeframe in mind?
 

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